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Guru Granth Sahib
Composition, Arrangement & Layout
ਜਪੁ | Jup
ਸੋ ਦਰੁ | So Dar
ਸੋਹਿਲਾ | Sohilaa
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ | Raag Siree-Raag
Gurbani (14-53)
Ashtpadiyan (53-71)
Gurbani (71-74)
Pahre (74-78)
Chhant (78-81)
Vanjara (81-82)
Vaar Siri Raag (83-91)
Bhagat Bani (91-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਝ | Raag Maajh
Gurbani (94-109)
Ashtpadi (109)
Ashtpadiyan (110-129)
Ashtpadi (129-130)
Ashtpadiyan (130-133)
Bara Maha (133-136)
Din Raen (136-137)
Vaar Maajh Ki (137-150)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ | Raag Gauree
Gurbani (151-185)
Quartets/Couplets (185-220)
Ashtpadiyan (220-234)
Karhalei (234-235)
Ashtpadiyan (235-242)
Chhant (242-249)
Baavan Akhari (250-262)
Sukhmani (262-296)
Thittee (296-300)
Gauree kii Vaar (300-323)
Gurbani (323-330)
Ashtpadiyan (330-340)
Baavan Akhari (340-343)
Thintteen (343-344)
Vaar Kabir (344-345)
Bhagat Bani (345-346)
ਰਾਗੁ ਆਸਾ | Raag Aasaa
Gurbani (347-348)
Chaupaday (348-364)
Panchpadde (364-365)
Kaafee (365-409)
Aasaavaree (409-411)
Ashtpadiyan (411-432)
Patee (432-435)
Chhant (435-462)
Vaar Aasaa (462-475)
Bhagat Bani (475-488)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੂਜਰੀ | Raag Goojaree
Gurbani (489-503)
Ashtpadiyan (503-508)
Vaar Gujari (508-517)
Vaar Gujari (517-526)
ਰਾਗੁ ਦੇਵਗੰਧਾਰੀ | Raag Dayv-Gandhaaree
Gurbani (527-536)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਹਾਗੜਾ | Raag Bihaagraa
Gurbani (537-556)
Chhant (538-548)
Vaar Bihaagraa (548-556)
ਰਾਗੁ ਵਡਹੰਸ | Raag Wadhans
Gurbani (557-564)
Ashtpadiyan (564-565)
Chhant (565-575)
Ghoriaan (575-578)
Alaahaniiaa (578-582)
Vaar Wadhans (582-594)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੋਰਠਿ | Raag Sorath
Gurbani (595-634)
Asatpadhiya (634-642)
Vaar Sorath (642-659)
ਰਾਗੁ ਧਨਾਸਰੀ | Raag Dhanasaree
Gurbani (660-685)
Astpadhiya (685-687)
Chhant (687-691)
Bhagat Bani (691-695)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਤਸਰੀ | Raag Jaitsree
Gurbani (696-703)
Chhant (703-705)
Vaar Jaitsaree (705-710)
Bhagat Bani (710)
ਰਾਗੁ ਟੋਡੀ | Raag Todee
ਰਾਗੁ ਬੈਰਾੜੀ | Raag Bairaaree
ਰਾਗੁ ਤਿਲੰਗ | Raag Tilang
Gurbani (721-727)
Bhagat Bani (727)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੂਹੀ | Raag Suhi
Gurbani (728-750)
Ashtpadiyan (750-761)
Kaafee (761-762)
Suchajee (762)
Gunvantee (763)
Chhant (763-785)
Vaar Soohee (785-792)
Bhagat Bani (792-794)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ | Raag Bilaaval
Gurbani (795-831)
Ashtpadiyan (831-838)
Thitteen (838-840)
Vaar Sat (841-843)
Chhant (843-848)
Vaar Bilaaval (849-855)
Bhagat Bani (855-858)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੋਂਡ | Raag Gond
Gurbani (859-869)
Ashtpadiyan (869)
Bhagat Bani (870-875)
ਰਾਗੁ ਰਾਮਕਲੀ | Raag Ramkalee
Ashtpadiyan (902-916)
Gurbani (876-902)
Anand (917-922)
Sadd (923-924)
Chhant (924-929)
Dakhnee (929-938)
Sidh Gosat (938-946)
Vaar Ramkalee (947-968)
ਰਾਗੁ ਨਟ ਨਾਰਾਇਨ | Raag Nat Narayan
Gurbani (975-980)
Ashtpadiyan (980-983)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਲੀ ਗਉੜਾ | Raag Maalee Gauraa
Gurbani (984-988)
Bhagat Bani (988)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਰੂ | Raag Maaroo
Gurbani (889-1008)
Ashtpadiyan (1008-1014)
Kaafee (1014-1016)
Ashtpadiyan (1016-1019)
Anjulian (1019-1020)
Solhe (1020-1033)
Dakhni (1033-1043)
ਰਾਗੁ ਤੁਖਾਰੀ | Raag Tukhaari
Bara Maha (1107-1110)
Chhant (1110-1117)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕੇਦਾਰਾ | Raag Kedara
Gurbani (1118-1123)
Bhagat Bani (1123-1124)
ਰਾਗੁ ਭੈਰਉ | Raag Bhairo
Gurbani (1125-1152)
Partaal (1153)
Ashtpadiyan (1153-1167)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਸੰਤੁ | Raag Basant
Gurbani (1168-1187)
Ashtpadiyan (1187-1193)
Vaar Basant (1193-1196)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਾਰਗ | Raag Saarag
Gurbani (1197-1200)
Partaal (1200-1231)
Ashtpadiyan (1232-1236)
Chhant (1236-1237)
Vaar Saarang (1237-1253)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਲਾਰ | Raag Malaar
Gurbani (1254-1293)
Partaal (1265-1273)
Ashtpadiyan (1273-1278)
Chhant (1278)
Vaar Malaar (1278-91)
Bhagat Bani (1292-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਾਨੜਾ | Raag Kaanraa
Gurbani (1294-96)
Partaal (1296-1318)
Ashtpadiyan (1308-1312)
Chhant (1312)
Vaar Kaanraa
Bhagat Bani (1318)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਲਿਆਨ | Raag Kalyaan
Gurbani (1319-23)
Ashtpadiyan (1323-26)
ਰਾਗੁ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ | Raag Prabhaatee
Gurbani (1327-1341)
Ashtpadiyan (1342-51)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਜਾਵੰਤੀ | Raag Jaijaiwanti
Gurbani (1352-53)
Salok | Gatha | Phunahe | Chaubole | Swayiye
Sehskritee Mahala 1
Sehskritee Mahala 5
Gaathaa Mahala 5
Phunhay Mahala 5
Chaubolae Mahala 5
Shaloks Bhagat Kabir
Shaloks Sheikh Farid
Swaiyyae Mahala 5
Swaiyyae in Praise of Gurus
Shaloks in Addition To Vaars
Shalok Ninth Mehl
Mundavanee Mehl 5
ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ, Raag Maalaa
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Hard Talk
Life Is Easier Without Karma - A Discussion
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<blockquote data-quote="Archived_member14" data-source="post: 169276" data-attributes="member: 586"><p>Embers ji,</p><p></p><p>While waiting for you to come back so that we can start our discussion regarding the reality / concept distinction, I would like to respond to this part of your message. My questions are C and your response E.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I wonder if the belief in Atman came before or after consideration regarding the nature of consciousness. If it is before, then it looks like you are trying to make your theory regarding consciousness to fit with the belief. If it is after then I'd like you to consider the following.</p><p>If consciousness does not change, then it is *not conditioned*. I wonder then how you explain the experience of the different objects through the five senses and the mind?</p><p></p><p>As I understand it, seeing is conditioned amongst other phenomena, by the eye-base, visible object and contact, so with the other sense experiences with their corresponding bases and object. This means that eye-base is different from ear-base etc., visible object is different from sound etc. and seeing is different from hearing etc. And this is what it means to be “conditioned”. </p><p></p><p>Surely you are not suggesting that seeing has the same characteristic as hearing and touching. But you are positing a consciousness / Atman which at different moments experience different objects and therefore somehow move around different bases, namely one moment it is at the eye, another at the toe and another at the nose, right? </p><p></p><p>If this is what you picture, I don't see why it is easier to believe this, than that each sense door experience and the mind are completely different and that they rise and fall away by differing conditions? </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>We begin and end with our moment to moment experience. No need to refer abstractly to consciousness, mental factors or physical phenomena and no need to think about Nibbana beyond the fact that it is the unconditioned which is the object of the path and fruition consciousness. Now, from moment to moment, there is seeing, touching, feeling, perception, visible object, sound, hardness, pressure, attachment, ignorance and so many other realities. All these, like consciousness, rise and fall away by conditions and can be known as such. So no need to start particularly with consciousness, but whatever appears “now”. </p><p></p><p>Indeed, that so many number of people who were the Buddha's audiences became enlightened there and then while listening to him teach, this is not because they all experienced insight into the particular reality that the Buddha was referring to at the time, but any of the possible realities each one of them were experiencing at at that very moment. So no need to talk about consciousness, but neither is there a need not to do so. ;-)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No, you are misreading what I suggested. I wasn't saying that we need not start with consciousness, but was addressing your idea that because it is not possible to experience one instance of consciousness since it rises and falls away so fast, that one could then assume that consciousness is constant / permanent. What I was trying to tell you is that impermanence, insubstantiality and non-self are known not as a result of seeing “one” consciousness rise and fall away, but as a result of wisdom experiencing what appears in the moment. It does not need to experience one infinitesimal reality in order to understand / know. Characteristics both particular and general appear all day. What wisdom sees is not as though looking down a microscope, indeed it would come away with the impression of how ordinary and “like now” it all is.</p><p></p><p>Consciousness is not separate from the Noble Truths. It is Dukkha, the first Noble Truth. The second Noble Truth, craving, this cannot arise without consciousness. The fourth, the Path, these refer to mental factors that must arise with consciousness. You're thinking and considering all this is not without consciousness. There is consciousness now and at all times, so why not begin with this? </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It doesn't look like you understood what I was referring to. </p><p>Saddha is a mental factor which arises with all wholesome consciousness. It is there already when the wholesome state arises and is not about a particular line of thought / attitude towards a set of teachings. There are two kinds of faith, one which reflects confidence in all good deeds. The other is associated only with the Buddha's teachings; it arises with all instances of Right Understanding and reflects confidence in the Path. When the level of understanding is weak as in intellectual understanding, the confidence is of the corresponding strength. This means that as understanding develops, the confidence also grows. This is why with enlightenment; the confidence becomes perfect / unshakeable. </p><p></p><p>I think this is in contrast to how most people and probably you as well, picture faith, which is more about a belief in something one has yet to experience or understand. But from where I stand, this looks to be more about attachment, and should therefore be discouraged. Studying the Buddha's teachings requires understanding all the way through from the first step to the last, and with each step not only does confidence grow, but also there is a corresponding level of detachment.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The only way that respect is shown towards the Buddha is through the development of Right understanding. If there is wrong understanding, this can't be respect, can it? </p><p></p><p>Why do you refer to empirical evidence then if you think that it is about understanding? You either understand or you don't and know it. But you questioned about the impermanence of citta and needed to be proven that indeed the description given reflects the reality. And you even went on to suggest not only that citta is permanent, but identify this as being the same as Atman, which as you know, is what the concept of Anatta directly denies the existence of. Is this the attitude of someone who acknowledges his own ignorance or is it of someone who thinks he knows better?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You don't have to try and convince anyone, but you can give an explanation in order that the other person knows where you are coming from. If you say that you have no basis to believe in non-self and impermanence, telling me what the basis for the belief in Atman and permanence is would help with the discussion, I would think.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I would say no right view has arisen; instead much wrong view has been conditioned to arise. (And this is worse than saying that it is due to ignorance isn't it. ;-)) But you don't know and I don't know about any right view that may have arisen in the past and accumulated, hence why I can't rule out the possibility that you may one day understand.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You'd have to know what “suffering” is first, before you can think to develop right understanding in order to end it. I hardly understand what suffering as in the First Noble Truth is. My interest is directed towards understanding this First Truth better, that's all. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, these are social considerations, which is not the objective of the Buddhadhamma. You won't find statements such as “no varna”, “equal rights for all”, “women should be treated as equal to men”, or even such suggestions as “one should treat everyone with kindness”. The point at all times is to develop right understanding of the present moment. From this it follows automatically that good deeds are seen as skillful and bad deeds as unskillful. No need to tell oneself to be and do good, let alone adopt particular attitudes in relation to society. Indeed it would seem that those who need prompting and who then tend also to prompt others 'to do good', 'to treat everyone equally' and those who think to develop loving kindness and such, are the ones who lack these qualities. And because they also lack understanding, they end up trying to do these things just so as to feel good about themselves. This is reflection of the worst of afflictions, namely “attachment to self”, the Second Noble Truth, which they all end up believing to be good. :-/</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Archived_member14, post: 169276, member: 586"] Embers ji, While waiting for you to come back so that we can start our discussion regarding the reality / concept distinction, I would like to respond to this part of your message. My questions are C and your response E. I wonder if the belief in Atman came before or after consideration regarding the nature of consciousness. If it is before, then it looks like you are trying to make your theory regarding consciousness to fit with the belief. If it is after then I'd like you to consider the following. If consciousness does not change, then it is *not conditioned*. I wonder then how you explain the experience of the different objects through the five senses and the mind? As I understand it, seeing is conditioned amongst other phenomena, by the eye-base, visible object and contact, so with the other sense experiences with their corresponding bases and object. This means that eye-base is different from ear-base etc., visible object is different from sound etc. and seeing is different from hearing etc. And this is what it means to be “conditioned”. Surely you are not suggesting that seeing has the same characteristic as hearing and touching. But you are positing a consciousness / Atman which at different moments experience different objects and therefore somehow move around different bases, namely one moment it is at the eye, another at the toe and another at the nose, right? If this is what you picture, I don't see why it is easier to believe this, than that each sense door experience and the mind are completely different and that they rise and fall away by differing conditions? We begin and end with our moment to moment experience. No need to refer abstractly to consciousness, mental factors or physical phenomena and no need to think about Nibbana beyond the fact that it is the unconditioned which is the object of the path and fruition consciousness. Now, from moment to moment, there is seeing, touching, feeling, perception, visible object, sound, hardness, pressure, attachment, ignorance and so many other realities. All these, like consciousness, rise and fall away by conditions and can be known as such. So no need to start particularly with consciousness, but whatever appears “now”. Indeed, that so many number of people who were the Buddha's audiences became enlightened there and then while listening to him teach, this is not because they all experienced insight into the particular reality that the Buddha was referring to at the time, but any of the possible realities each one of them were experiencing at at that very moment. So no need to talk about consciousness, but neither is there a need not to do so. ;-) No, you are misreading what I suggested. I wasn't saying that we need not start with consciousness, but was addressing your idea that because it is not possible to experience one instance of consciousness since it rises and falls away so fast, that one could then assume that consciousness is constant / permanent. What I was trying to tell you is that impermanence, insubstantiality and non-self are known not as a result of seeing “one” consciousness rise and fall away, but as a result of wisdom experiencing what appears in the moment. It does not need to experience one infinitesimal reality in order to understand / know. Characteristics both particular and general appear all day. What wisdom sees is not as though looking down a microscope, indeed it would come away with the impression of how ordinary and “like now” it all is. Consciousness is not separate from the Noble Truths. It is Dukkha, the first Noble Truth. The second Noble Truth, craving, this cannot arise without consciousness. The fourth, the Path, these refer to mental factors that must arise with consciousness. You're thinking and considering all this is not without consciousness. There is consciousness now and at all times, so why not begin with this? It doesn't look like you understood what I was referring to. Saddha is a mental factor which arises with all wholesome consciousness. It is there already when the wholesome state arises and is not about a particular line of thought / attitude towards a set of teachings. There are two kinds of faith, one which reflects confidence in all good deeds. The other is associated only with the Buddha's teachings; it arises with all instances of Right Understanding and reflects confidence in the Path. When the level of understanding is weak as in intellectual understanding, the confidence is of the corresponding strength. This means that as understanding develops, the confidence also grows. This is why with enlightenment; the confidence becomes perfect / unshakeable. I think this is in contrast to how most people and probably you as well, picture faith, which is more about a belief in something one has yet to experience or understand. But from where I stand, this looks to be more about attachment, and should therefore be discouraged. Studying the Buddha's teachings requires understanding all the way through from the first step to the last, and with each step not only does confidence grow, but also there is a corresponding level of detachment. The only way that respect is shown towards the Buddha is through the development of Right understanding. If there is wrong understanding, this can't be respect, can it? Why do you refer to empirical evidence then if you think that it is about understanding? You either understand or you don't and know it. But you questioned about the impermanence of citta and needed to be proven that indeed the description given reflects the reality. And you even went on to suggest not only that citta is permanent, but identify this as being the same as Atman, which as you know, is what the concept of Anatta directly denies the existence of. Is this the attitude of someone who acknowledges his own ignorance or is it of someone who thinks he knows better? You don't have to try and convince anyone, but you can give an explanation in order that the other person knows where you are coming from. If you say that you have no basis to believe in non-self and impermanence, telling me what the basis for the belief in Atman and permanence is would help with the discussion, I would think. I would say no right view has arisen; instead much wrong view has been conditioned to arise. (And this is worse than saying that it is due to ignorance isn't it. ;-)) But you don't know and I don't know about any right view that may have arisen in the past and accumulated, hence why I can't rule out the possibility that you may one day understand. You'd have to know what “suffering” is first, before you can think to develop right understanding in order to end it. I hardly understand what suffering as in the First Noble Truth is. My interest is directed towards understanding this First Truth better, that's all. Yes, these are social considerations, which is not the objective of the Buddhadhamma. You won't find statements such as “no varna”, “equal rights for all”, “women should be treated as equal to men”, or even such suggestions as “one should treat everyone with kindness”. The point at all times is to develop right understanding of the present moment. From this it follows automatically that good deeds are seen as skillful and bad deeds as unskillful. No need to tell oneself to be and do good, let alone adopt particular attitudes in relation to society. Indeed it would seem that those who need prompting and who then tend also to prompt others 'to do good', 'to treat everyone equally' and those who think to develop loving kindness and such, are the ones who lack these qualities. And because they also lack understanding, they end up trying to do these things just so as to feel good about themselves. This is reflection of the worst of afflictions, namely “attachment to self”, the Second Noble Truth, which they all end up believing to be good. :-/ [/QUOTE]
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Life Is Easier Without Karma - A Discussion
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