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Bhagat Bani (988)
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Gurbani (889-1008)
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Anjulian (1019-1020)
Solhe (1020-1033)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਕੇਦਾਰਾ | Raag Kedara
Gurbani (1118-1123)
Bhagat Bani (1123-1124)
ਰਾਗੁ ਭੈਰਉ | Raag Bhairo
Gurbani (1125-1152)
Partaal (1153)
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Gurbani (1197-1200)
Partaal (1200-1231)
Ashtpadiyan (1232-1236)
Chhant (1236-1237)
Vaar Saarang (1237-1253)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਲਾਰ | Raag Malaar
Gurbani (1254-1293)
Partaal (1265-1273)
Ashtpadiyan (1273-1278)
Chhant (1278)
Vaar Malaar (1278-91)
Bhagat Bani (1292-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਾਨੜਾ | Raag Kaanraa
Gurbani (1294-96)
Partaal (1296-1318)
Ashtpadiyan (1308-1312)
Chhant (1312)
Vaar Kaanraa
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Gurbani (1352-53)
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Sehskritee Mahala 1
Sehskritee Mahala 5
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Swaiyyae in Praise of Gurus
Shaloks in Addition To Vaars
Shalok Ninth Mehl
Mundavanee Mehl 5
ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ, Raag Maalaa
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Hard Talk
Life Is Easier Without Karma - A Discussion
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<blockquote data-quote="Archived_member14" data-source="post: 169068" data-attributes="member: 586"><p><strong>Re: Life is easier without karma - a dicussion.</strong></p><p></p><p>Ambers ji,</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Just a reminder, there is no 'self' who is conditioned by past ignorance and formations. If we go by the perception that there is someone who has ignorance or wisdom and to whom things happen, whether we then go on to believe that there is control or no control, either way we are wrong.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think that you must have heard this explanation from someone else. Personally I don't like to think about the dependent origination. It is fine when looked at as being an explanation regarding the process of the cycle of existence. And it of course is also happening now. But given that there is no real understanding with regard to the characteristic of realities that make up my moment to moment experience, chances are that I'd only end up proliferating when thinking about the D.O. But even with this little understanding, I know one thing, that *all* conditioned phenomena are non-self (anatta), therefore not subject to the control of will.</p><p></p><p>There is of course sense-control, but this is the function of mindfulness and understanding and these two, like all realities, is conditioned and can't be made to happen simply because we wish it. That there is a Path to it happening, this too involves realities all arising by conditions alone and not by a decision to follow ideas which 'self' projects.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No. No control is an aspect of anatta which is one of the three universal characteristics of all conditioned phenomena. </p><p></p><p>There is good and bad intention, each associated with particular thoughts. But intention is conditioned by the other mental factors accompanying it, all arisen and fallen away already by the time that it is known. Besides, intention is not a factor of the Path. Some interpret samma sankhapa as right intention, but it is actually right thought. These people then go on to believe that in having the intention to do good and practice mindfulness and concentration, they are thereby following the Path. But this is ignorance, attachment and self-views doing the talking. </p><p></p><p>Ambers ji, the D.O. is not easy to comprehend at all. My impression is that you are missing the point of the Buddha's teachings, which is to develop the understanding of the present moment reality, in making reference to the D.O. The most important step is to understand the reality / concept distinction. From this we then begin to see how much ignorance there in fact is. This ignorance is defined in terms of the Four Noble Truths, and this refers to the mental and physical phenomena which make up our lives. Unless this happens, we are likely to think wrongly about everything that we read and have a false impression that understanding is being developed when in reality it is may just be getting a grasp through philosophical reasoning.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't know how you arrived at the line of thought. Perhaps you are thinking in the context of the dependent origination. But my impression is that you are proliferating like mad, and as I said, missing the point. The D.O. is not where one looks to in order to understand kamma. Kamma is intention which arises with all volitional consciousness. Although not all such intention is kammapatha, namely wholesome and unwholesome course of action which will bring results in the future. There is intention also with resultant consciousness; here however, it performs the function of coordinating the other mental factors only. But kamma as cause can be understood as and when they arise and this includes when craving is at the root. </p><p></p><p>All formations accumulate in intensity with each arising. I don't understand what you mean by “Our past habits and actions form karma which reappear in the present moment….”. Please explain.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Before I respond to this, you must first explain to me what it is that you mean by “existence”.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm not familiar with this line of thought. Please explain.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>What according to you is “world”?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is from the Buddhist dictionary:</p><p></p><p>dukkhatā (abstr. noun fr. dukkha): 'the state of suffering', painfulness, unpleasantness, the unsatisfactoriness of existence. "There are three kinds of suffering: </p><p>(1) suffering as pain (dukkha-dukkhatā), </p><p>(2) the suffering inherent in the formations (saṅkhāra-dukkhatā), </p><p>(3) the suffering in change (vipariṇāma-dukkhatā)" (S. XLV, 165; D. 33).</p><p></p><p>(1) is the bodily or mental feeling of pain as actual]y felt. (2) refers to the oppressive nature of all formations of existence (i.e. all conditioned phenomena), due to their continual arising and passing away; this includes also experiences associated with neutral feeling. (3) refers to bodily and mental pleasant feelings, "because they are the cause for the arising of pain when they change" (Vis.M. XIV, 34f).</p><p></p><p>Physical phenomena have the characteristic of dukkha as in the 2nd meaning above. But I suspect that your reference to the “material world” is not the same as the physical phenomena that I refer to, but some concept. If so, this may explain why you can’t comprehend suffering in relation to this.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>What world are you talking about? Do you not believe in the reality of good states such as kindness, morality, generosity, compassion on one hand and bad states such as hatred, envy, greed and conceit on the other? Or is it that you are referring to the 'material world'? Well of course, physical phenomena can't be good or bad! How did you get the impression that Buddhism says that it is?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>But why use the particular concept when you do not believe in the existence of God? Do you think it makes no difference if someone believes in God and refers to those associated ideas? If there is no God, does this not mean that the perception of divinity only makes matters worse? </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>“Pure consciousness”? This does not sound like something you'd get from studying the Buddha's teachings. </p><p>Instead of thinking that “we” must act, can you not think in terms of there being a need for much development? This development involves not only wisdom, but all kinds of wholesome deeds such as generosity, kindness, morality, patience, truthfulness, renunciation and equanimity. And these are all good karma.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Archived_member14, post: 169068, member: 586"] [b]Re: Life is easier without karma - a dicussion.[/b] Ambers ji, Just a reminder, there is no 'self' who is conditioned by past ignorance and formations. If we go by the perception that there is someone who has ignorance or wisdom and to whom things happen, whether we then go on to believe that there is control or no control, either way we are wrong. I think that you must have heard this explanation from someone else. Personally I don't like to think about the dependent origination. It is fine when looked at as being an explanation regarding the process of the cycle of existence. And it of course is also happening now. But given that there is no real understanding with regard to the characteristic of realities that make up my moment to moment experience, chances are that I'd only end up proliferating when thinking about the D.O. But even with this little understanding, I know one thing, that *all* conditioned phenomena are non-self (anatta), therefore not subject to the control of will. There is of course sense-control, but this is the function of mindfulness and understanding and these two, like all realities, is conditioned and can't be made to happen simply because we wish it. That there is a Path to it happening, this too involves realities all arising by conditions alone and not by a decision to follow ideas which 'self' projects. No. No control is an aspect of anatta which is one of the three universal characteristics of all conditioned phenomena. There is good and bad intention, each associated with particular thoughts. But intention is conditioned by the other mental factors accompanying it, all arisen and fallen away already by the time that it is known. Besides, intention is not a factor of the Path. Some interpret samma sankhapa as right intention, but it is actually right thought. These people then go on to believe that in having the intention to do good and practice mindfulness and concentration, they are thereby following the Path. But this is ignorance, attachment and self-views doing the talking. Ambers ji, the D.O. is not easy to comprehend at all. My impression is that you are missing the point of the Buddha's teachings, which is to develop the understanding of the present moment reality, in making reference to the D.O. The most important step is to understand the reality / concept distinction. From this we then begin to see how much ignorance there in fact is. This ignorance is defined in terms of the Four Noble Truths, and this refers to the mental and physical phenomena which make up our lives. Unless this happens, we are likely to think wrongly about everything that we read and have a false impression that understanding is being developed when in reality it is may just be getting a grasp through philosophical reasoning. I don't know how you arrived at the line of thought. Perhaps you are thinking in the context of the dependent origination. But my impression is that you are proliferating like mad, and as I said, missing the point. The D.O. is not where one looks to in order to understand kamma. Kamma is intention which arises with all volitional consciousness. Although not all such intention is kammapatha, namely wholesome and unwholesome course of action which will bring results in the future. There is intention also with resultant consciousness; here however, it performs the function of coordinating the other mental factors only. But kamma as cause can be understood as and when they arise and this includes when craving is at the root. All formations accumulate in intensity with each arising. I don't understand what you mean by “Our past habits and actions form karma which reappear in the present moment….”. Please explain. Before I respond to this, you must first explain to me what it is that you mean by “existence”. I'm not familiar with this line of thought. Please explain. What according to you is “world”? This is from the Buddhist dictionary: dukkhatā (abstr. noun fr. dukkha): 'the state of suffering', painfulness, unpleasantness, the unsatisfactoriness of existence. "There are three kinds of suffering: (1) suffering as pain (dukkha-dukkhatā), (2) the suffering inherent in the formations (saṅkhāra-dukkhatā), (3) the suffering in change (vipariṇāma-dukkhatā)" (S. XLV, 165; D. 33). (1) is the bodily or mental feeling of pain as actual]y felt. (2) refers to the oppressive nature of all formations of existence (i.e. all conditioned phenomena), due to their continual arising and passing away; this includes also experiences associated with neutral feeling. (3) refers to bodily and mental pleasant feelings, "because they are the cause for the arising of pain when they change" (Vis.M. XIV, 34f). Physical phenomena have the characteristic of dukkha as in the 2nd meaning above. But I suspect that your reference to the “material world” is not the same as the physical phenomena that I refer to, but some concept. If so, this may explain why you can’t comprehend suffering in relation to this. What world are you talking about? Do you not believe in the reality of good states such as kindness, morality, generosity, compassion on one hand and bad states such as hatred, envy, greed and conceit on the other? Or is it that you are referring to the 'material world'? Well of course, physical phenomena can't be good or bad! How did you get the impression that Buddhism says that it is? But why use the particular concept when you do not believe in the existence of God? Do you think it makes no difference if someone believes in God and refers to those associated ideas? If there is no God, does this not mean that the perception of divinity only makes matters worse? “Pure consciousness”? This does not sound like something you'd get from studying the Buddha's teachings. Instead of thinking that “we” must act, can you not think in terms of there being a need for much development? This development involves not only wisdom, but all kinds of wholesome deeds such as generosity, kindness, morality, patience, truthfulness, renunciation and equanimity. And these are all good karma. [/QUOTE]
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Life Is Easier Without Karma - A Discussion
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