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Janam Sakhi Are True Events
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<blockquote data-quote="kharkoo4life" data-source="post: 22461" data-attributes="member: 1348"><p><strong>re: 'Janam Sakhi' Are True Events</strong></p><p></p><p>Fateh,</p><p> </p><p>Much Thanks for the silly-faced icons. Dont know what place those faces hold in a discussion about gurmat, or if u felt that perhaps their use would somehow make me more likely to be left in amazement of ur remarks and be more inclined to accept ur viewpoint. By the way, looking at the volatile range of emotions displayed in the icons u used, seems like perhaps a little relaxation mite be a gud idea (hehe).</p><p> </p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>Firstly, i am not trying to make ppl see the gurus as human beings. That is already a fact! They were not avtaars, incarnations, demi-gods, or superhumans etc., they were the same old regular type of human beings as you and I. The only difference was they were living at a completely different spiritual level (i.e. the highest state of brahmgyani, or anotherwords completely immersed as one with God). I have no need to make ppl believe this, for the fact they were human like us is common sense.</p><p> </p><p>As for what part of the guru amazed ppl, i never stated it was just their words. In fact, for me everything about the gurus is amazing. How they thought, how they spoke, how they acted. It was not just their words which was amazing but also all their actions. The only caveat to this is that their actions did not include the need for display of any miracles. The regular ordinary actions they performed, i.e. never being afraid, always speaking out for others rights, always acting out of love even to the cruelest of attackers etc. amidst the most difficult and threatening of environments, to me these actions themselves are amazing and beyond belief sometimes. I have no need to see the gurus performing miracles to validate their greatness.</p><p> </p><p>As for why they would perform miracles, i have yet to see a single reasonable answer. To simply state that the miracles happened and we should just accept them as true is a very naive and immature argument. To say that i believe every 100% of what is written in the janamsakhis simply cuz it is written is tatamount to blind faith, not reason based faith of a true learner (sikh).</p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p> <span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">The above sakhi u quote goes to show just how ridiculous some of the contents of purataan janamsakhis is and how heavily influenced they are by brahmincal ideology. Firstly, if someone came to the guru for a baby why would guru arjan dev on one hand accept their request and grant them a baby (be it thru them or 2nd person like baba budha) while at the same time be compiling SGGS as the eternal guru in which it states:</span></span></p><p> <span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'GurbaniWebThick'"><span style="font-size: 15px">jMmxu mrxw hukmu pCwxu ]1]</span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><em>Understand that birth and death come according to the Lord's Will. (p.412)</em></span></span></p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'GurbaniWebThick'"><span style="font-size: 15px">jMmxu mrxw hukmu hY BwxY AwvY jwie ]</span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><em>Birth and death are subject to the Command of the Lord's Will; through His Will we come and go. (p.472)</em></span></span></p><p> <span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Did guru arjan dev ji consider baba budha ji equivalent to God that mata ganga should go to him for a child? Isnt it ironic how much this story resembles the then (and in many cases still present ritual) of ppl going to pandits, sadhus, brahmins etc in hopes of gettin a certain wish filled. The brahmins of then (and now) would say if u want a child come to me with ur prayers and do such and such service for me and then i will grant u the gift of a child (by myself doing various 'special' prayers and mantars). The only difference in this story is that mata ganga is told to take her prayers to baba buda ji and do some sewa of him and by that she will be blessed with a child. Whatever happened to the notion that Guru Nanak stated above that all birth comes about thru Gods Will? Why then would a sikh go to another human being in hopes of having a birth in their family? This is what i mean by the janamsakhis in many cases contain so much unchecked information that if analyzed with a critical eye they make the gurus into complete hypocrites both when compared to other gurus and compared to the gurbani they wrote.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p> <span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">You are right, i am not claiming to be an all knower of sikhi and neither do i claim every word of mine shud be accepted as pure truth, for the only pure truth i would ever advise anyone to accept is gurbani period. However with regards to providing solid evidence, i am not sure what u are referring to, but i could definitely ask you of the same. When u say that miracles did happen what evidence do u have? The janamsakhis? Do u consider them to be of equal level as gurbani? And where in gurbani does it show the guru engaging in any kind of miracle or for that matter condone the displayin of miracles by any man?</span></span></p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p> <span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">You seem to be in too much of a hurry to try and break down my argument that you fail to properly read my posts. I never contested whether one is or isnt capable of engaging in "miracles". The powers of the human mind, once in complete harmony with the Lord are beyond description. My whole argument was and is whether the gurus would ever perform miracles and if so why.</span></span></p><p> <span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Every action the gurus did they always provided reason for it. They never simply did something and said ok you must simply accept this cuz i am your guru. How would that make them any different than the self-righteous pandits, and brahmins who preached to the masses to follow their every word simply cuz they were "brahmins"? The gurus wanted to pass on the torch of sikhi to each memebr of the panth equaly, and the only way this could be done is through the dissemination of the same knowledge and understanding that they possessed to the followers. That is why, if the gurus made a certain remark, or did a certain action and the sikhs questioned them of what the purpose of that was the gurus would always give them answers with clear reasoning behind it. Only thru this process of sharing their own understanding would the gurus be able to be sure that the sikhs could then pass this same understanding onto others.</span></span></p><p> <span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="font-family: 'GurbaniWebThick'"><span style="font-size: 15px">gurU isKu isKu gurU hY eyko gur aupdysu clwey ]</span></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><em>The Guru's Sikh, and the Sikh's Guru, are one and the same; both spread the Guru's Teachings. (p.444)</em></span></span></p><p> <span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">The Gurus teachings werent simply teh guru did this so u must accept it, or the guru says do this so go do it. The gurus teachings were all founded on logical reasoning which every person could understand and be able to realize the significance of. Thus if we are to accept the gurus as performing miracles i must ask, since the gurus always gave reasons behind their actions, they surely must have given reason behind the miracles that they engaged in, so would you be so kind as to share those reasons with everyone else. Why did they perform the miracles that they did? What was their purpose? What did they achieve thru them?</span></span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>IF u wish to accept the janamsakhis as true, then by all means keep doing so i would never force anyone not to. And if u already understand the deeper message of gurbani than i honestly am happy for you. However, as im sure u are aware, the great majority of ppl out there, particularly the youth, have a very weak understanding if any of Sikhi. For someone with a strong knowledge of gurbani (as it seems u have) they are unaffected by whether miracles did or didnt happen cuz to them the message is more important than the means used to convey it, for they already know the deeper message and can focus on that. But for newcomers, they will be more drawn and fixated on the 'miracles', 'powers' of the gurus shown in these stories rather than the deeper underlying message. For them, having a concrete picture of the sakhis (i.e. whether miracles did or didnt happen) is much more important and cant simply be left with the attitude "dont worry about it and just focus on the shabad guru"</p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p></blockquote><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p> <span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">You will be glad to know that I am always readjusting my thoughts as i learn new things. For anyone to ever claim i never have to readjust my thoughts would mean they already know everything and could never be wrong. However, whenever i do adjust my thoughts, i make sure to use one standard guideline, and that is gurbani. If it is in accorandance with gurbani then i will accept it and change my thoughts, but if gurbani says otherwise then i will not.</span></span></p><p> <span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Sincerely,</span></span></p><p>[/QUOTE]</p>
[QUOTE="kharkoo4life, post: 22461, member: 1348"] [b]re: 'Janam Sakhi' Are True Events[/b] Fateh, Much Thanks for the silly-faced icons. Dont know what place those faces hold in a discussion about gurmat, or if u felt that perhaps their use would somehow make me more likely to be left in amazement of ur remarks and be more inclined to accept ur viewpoint. By the way, looking at the volatile range of emotions displayed in the icons u used, seems like perhaps a little relaxation mite be a gud idea (hehe). Firstly, i am not trying to make ppl see the gurus as human beings. That is already a fact! They were not avtaars, incarnations, demi-gods, or superhumans etc., they were the same old regular type of human beings as you and I. The only difference was they were living at a completely different spiritual level (i.e. the highest state of brahmgyani, or anotherwords completely immersed as one with God). I have no need to make ppl believe this, for the fact they were human like us is common sense. As for what part of the guru amazed ppl, i never stated it was just their words. In fact, for me everything about the gurus is amazing. How they thought, how they spoke, how they acted. It was not just their words which was amazing but also all their actions. The only caveat to this is that their actions did not include the need for display of any miracles. The regular ordinary actions they performed, i.e. never being afraid, always speaking out for others rights, always acting out of love even to the cruelest of attackers etc. amidst the most difficult and threatening of environments, to me these actions themselves are amazing and beyond belief sometimes. I have no need to see the gurus performing miracles to validate their greatness. As for why they would perform miracles, i have yet to see a single reasonable answer. To simply state that the miracles happened and we should just accept them as true is a very naive and immature argument. To say that i believe every 100% of what is written in the janamsakhis simply cuz it is written is tatamount to blind faith, not reason based faith of a true learner (sikh). [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana] The above sakhi u quote goes to show just how ridiculous some of the contents of purataan janamsakhis is and how heavily influenced they are by brahmincal ideology. Firstly, if someone came to the guru for a baby why would guru arjan dev on one hand accept their request and grant them a baby (be it thru them or 2nd person like baba budha) while at the same time be compiling SGGS as the eternal guru in which it states: [FONT=GurbaniWebThick][SIZE=4]jMmxu mrxw hukmu pCwxu ]1][/SIZE][/FONT] [I]Understand that birth and death come according to the Lord's Will. (p.412)[/I] [FONT=GurbaniWebThick][SIZE=4]jMmxu mrxw hukmu hY BwxY AwvY jwie ][/SIZE][/FONT] [I]Birth and death are subject to the Command of the Lord's Will; through His Will we come and go. (p.472)[/I] Did guru arjan dev ji consider baba budha ji equivalent to God that mata ganga should go to him for a child? Isnt it ironic how much this story resembles the then (and in many cases still present ritual) of ppl going to pandits, sadhus, brahmins etc in hopes of gettin a certain wish filled. The brahmins of then (and now) would say if u want a child come to me with ur prayers and do such and such service for me and then i will grant u the gift of a child (by myself doing various 'special' prayers and mantars). The only difference in this story is that mata ganga is told to take her prayers to baba buda ji and do some sewa of him and by that she will be blessed with a child. Whatever happened to the notion that Guru Nanak stated above that all birth comes about thru Gods Will? Why then would a sikh go to another human being in hopes of having a birth in their family? This is what i mean by the janamsakhis in many cases contain so much unchecked information that if analyzed with a critical eye they make the gurus into complete hypocrites both when compared to other gurus and compared to the gurbani they wrote. [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana] You are right, i am not claiming to be an all knower of sikhi and neither do i claim every word of mine shud be accepted as pure truth, for the only pure truth i would ever advise anyone to accept is gurbani period. However with regards to providing solid evidence, i am not sure what u are referring to, but i could definitely ask you of the same. When u say that miracles did happen what evidence do u have? The janamsakhis? Do u consider them to be of equal level as gurbani? And where in gurbani does it show the guru engaging in any kind of miracle or for that matter condone the displayin of miracles by any man? [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana] You seem to be in too much of a hurry to try and break down my argument that you fail to properly read my posts. I never contested whether one is or isnt capable of engaging in "miracles". The powers of the human mind, once in complete harmony with the Lord are beyond description. My whole argument was and is whether the gurus would ever perform miracles and if so why. Every action the gurus did they always provided reason for it. They never simply did something and said ok you must simply accept this cuz i am your guru. How would that make them any different than the self-righteous pandits, and brahmins who preached to the masses to follow their every word simply cuz they were "brahmins"? The gurus wanted to pass on the torch of sikhi to each memebr of the panth equaly, and the only way this could be done is through the dissemination of the same knowledge and understanding that they possessed to the followers. That is why, if the gurus made a certain remark, or did a certain action and the sikhs questioned them of what the purpose of that was the gurus would always give them answers with clear reasoning behind it. Only thru this process of sharing their own understanding would the gurus be able to be sure that the sikhs could then pass this same understanding onto others. [FONT=GurbaniWebThick][SIZE=4]gurU isKu isKu gurU hY eyko gur aupdysu clwey ][/SIZE][/FONT] [I]The Guru's Sikh, and the Sikh's Guru, are one and the same; both spread the Guru's Teachings. (p.444)[/I] The Gurus teachings werent simply teh guru did this so u must accept it, or the guru says do this so go do it. The gurus teachings were all founded on logical reasoning which every person could understand and be able to realize the significance of. Thus if we are to accept the gurus as performing miracles i must ask, since the gurus always gave reasons behind their actions, they surely must have given reason behind the miracles that they engaged in, so would you be so kind as to share those reasons with everyone else. Why did they perform the miracles that they did? What was their purpose? What did they achieve thru them?[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR] IF u wish to accept the janamsakhis as true, then by all means keep doing so i would never force anyone not to. And if u already understand the deeper message of gurbani than i honestly am happy for you. However, as im sure u are aware, the great majority of ppl out there, particularly the youth, have a very weak understanding if any of Sikhi. For someone with a strong knowledge of gurbani (as it seems u have) they are unaffected by whether miracles did or didnt happen cuz to them the message is more important than the means used to convey it, for they already know the deeper message and can focus on that. But for newcomers, they will be more drawn and fixated on the 'miracles', 'powers' of the gurus shown in these stories rather than the deeper underlying message. For them, having a concrete picture of the sakhis (i.e. whether miracles did or didnt happen) is much more important and cant simply be left with the attitude "dont worry about it and just focus on the shabad guru" [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana] [/FONT][/COLOR][/quote][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana] You will be glad to know that I am always readjusting my thoughts as i learn new things. For anyone to ever claim i never have to readjust my thoughts would mean they already know everything and could never be wrong. However, whenever i do adjust my thoughts, i make sure to use one standard guideline, and that is gurbani. If it is in accorandance with gurbani then i will accept it and change my thoughts, but if gurbani says otherwise then i will not. Sincerely,[/FONT][/COLOR] [/QUOTE]
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