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Swaiyyae in Praise of Gurus
Shaloks in Addition To Vaars
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ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ, Raag Maalaa
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Is God A Universal Principle?
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<blockquote data-quote="spnadmin" data-source="post: 100379" data-attributes="member: 35"><p>Virinder ji,</p><p></p><p>You have been trying to make the case in this thread and in the thread Sikh Khanda that God is a Universal Principle. More recently now you are saying He is the Absolute principle. So you are back-peddling. But it is not going to work.</p><p></p><p>In the first part of the shabad that you quoted on Ang 1279 it is clearly stating that the Satgur gave creation all of its tasks to perform including the Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, who were created along with every other part of his Design. Shiva cannot find the limits of Akaal, because as we have stated earlier only Akaal is consciousn of the extent of His identity. No one and nothing else. We do see also that His throne is established on principles of truth (in other word, he is not a principle, rather He is the One Who decided what the principles are supposed to be). Principles cannot create more principles. He is the creator of everything including the principles that guide our actions. As the Satugur, His identity is Truth, and only the Truth can determine what the principles of truth are. If you cannot accept this, then we then we are dealing with a tautology, a circular argument. </p><p></p><p>Now to the part of the shabad that you quoted. </p><p></p><p><span style="color: Blue">ਪਉੜੀ ॥</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">pourree ||</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">Pauree:</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਦੇਵ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">brehamaa bisan mehaes dhaev oupaaeiaa ||</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva and the deities were created.</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ ਦਿਤੇ ਬੇਦ ਪੂਜਾ ਲਾਇਆ ॥</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">brehamae dhithae baedh poojaa laaeiaa ||</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">Brahma was given the Vedas, and enjoined to worship God.</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">ਦਸ ਅਵਤਾਰੀ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਾਜਾ ਆਇਆ ॥</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">dhas avathaaree raam raajaa aaeiaa ||</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">The ten incarnations, and Rama the king, came into being.</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">ਦੈਤਾ ਮਾਰੇ ਧਾਇ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਸਬਾਇਆ ॥</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">dhaithaa maarae dhhaae hukam sabaaeiaa ||</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">According to His Will, they quickly killed all the demons.</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">ਈਸ ਮਹੇਸੁਰੁ ਸੇਵ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ॥</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">ees mehaesur saev thinhee anth n paaeiaa ||</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">Shiva serves Him, but cannot find His limits.</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">ਸਚੀ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਪਾਇ ਤਖਤੁ ਰਚਾਇਆ ॥</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">sachee keemath paae thakhath rachaaeiaa ||</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">He established His throne on the principles of Truth.</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue"></span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">ਦੁਨੀਆ ਧੰਧੈ ਲਾਇ ਆਪੁ ਛਪਾਇਆ ॥</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">dhuneeaa dhhandhhai laae aap shhapaaeiaa ||</span></p><p><span style="color: Blue">He enjoined all the world to its tasks, while He keeps Himself hidden from view.</span></p><p></p><p> He is the One who gives principles and tasks, He however is concealed from view. In other words, this is his play and he decides on the plot, the script and the roles – i.e., the principles by which the universe is supported and the principles by which Dharma is upheld (please do not advise me to read your article on Dharma because I am not in need of your guidance.)</p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong><span style="color: Blue">But for reasons that are known only to you </span></strong><span style="color: Blue"><strong>did not include the final line. </strong></span>Here it is. </p><p></p><p><span style="color: Red">ਧਰਮੁ ਕਰਾਏ ਕਰਮ ਧੁਰਹੁ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਆ ॥੩॥</span></p><p><span style="color: Red">dhharam karaaeae karam dhhurahu furamaaeiaa ||3||</span></p><p><span style="color: Red">The Primal Lord has ordained that mortals must practice righteousness. ||3||</span></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is the entire point of the shabad. The shabad has nothing to do with defining God as a Universal principle or as an Absolute principle. The point of the shabad is to instruct us as to our purpose in life: The Sat has ordained that we walk in Dharma.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="spnadmin, post: 100379, member: 35"] Virinder ji, You have been trying to make the case in this thread and in the thread Sikh Khanda that God is a Universal Principle. More recently now you are saying He is the Absolute principle. So you are back-peddling. But it is not going to work. In the first part of the shabad that you quoted on Ang 1279 it is clearly stating that the Satgur gave creation all of its tasks to perform including the Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, who were created along with every other part of his Design. Shiva cannot find the limits of Akaal, because as we have stated earlier only Akaal is consciousn of the extent of His identity. No one and nothing else. We do see also that His throne is established on principles of truth (in other word, he is not a principle, rather He is the One Who decided what the principles are supposed to be). Principles cannot create more principles. He is the creator of everything including the principles that guide our actions. As the Satugur, His identity is Truth, and only the Truth can determine what the principles of truth are. If you cannot accept this, then we then we are dealing with a tautology, a circular argument. Now to the part of the shabad that you quoted. [COLOR=Blue]ਪਉੜੀ ॥ pourree || Pauree: ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਦੇਵ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥ brehamaa bisan mehaes dhaev oupaaeiaa || Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva and the deities were created. ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ ਦਿਤੇ ਬੇਦ ਪੂਜਾ ਲਾਇਆ ॥ brehamae dhithae baedh poojaa laaeiaa || Brahma was given the Vedas, and enjoined to worship God. ਦਸ ਅਵਤਾਰੀ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਾਜਾ ਆਇਆ ॥ dhas avathaaree raam raajaa aaeiaa || The ten incarnations, and Rama the king, came into being. ਦੈਤਾ ਮਾਰੇ ਧਾਇ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਸਬਾਇਆ ॥ dhaithaa maarae dhhaae hukam sabaaeiaa || According to His Will, they quickly killed all the demons. ਈਸ ਮਹੇਸੁਰੁ ਸੇਵ ਤਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਆ ॥ ees mehaesur saev thinhee anth n paaeiaa || Shiva serves Him, but cannot find His limits. ਸਚੀ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਪਾਇ ਤਖਤੁ ਰਚਾਇਆ ॥ sachee keemath paae thakhath rachaaeiaa || He established His throne on the principles of Truth. ਦੁਨੀਆ ਧੰਧੈ ਲਾਇ ਆਪੁ ਛਪਾਇਆ ॥ dhuneeaa dhhandhhai laae aap shhapaaeiaa || He enjoined all the world to its tasks, while He keeps Himself hidden from view.[/COLOR] He is the One who gives principles and tasks, He however is concealed from view. In other words, this is his play and he decides on the plot, the script and the roles – i.e., the principles by which the universe is supported and the principles by which Dharma is upheld (please do not advise me to read your article on Dharma because I am not in need of your guidance.) [B] [COLOR=Blue]But for reasons that are known only to you [/COLOR][/B][COLOR=Blue][B]did not include the final line. [/B][/COLOR]Here it is. [COLOR=Red]ਧਰਮੁ ਕਰਾਏ ਕਰਮ ਧੁਰਹੁ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਆ ॥੩॥ dhharam karaaeae karam dhhurahu furamaaeiaa ||3|| The Primal Lord has ordained that mortals must practice righteousness. ||3||[/COLOR] This is the entire point of the shabad. The shabad has nothing to do with defining God as a Universal principle or as an Absolute principle. The point of the shabad is to instruct us as to our purpose in life: The Sat has ordained that we walk in Dharma. [/QUOTE]
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