☀️ JOIN SPN MOBILE
Forums
New posts
Guru Granth Sahib
Composition, Arrangement & Layout
ਜਪੁ | Jup
ਸੋ ਦਰੁ | So Dar
ਸੋਹਿਲਾ | Sohilaa
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ | Raag Siree-Raag
Gurbani (14-53)
Ashtpadiyan (53-71)
Gurbani (71-74)
Pahre (74-78)
Chhant (78-81)
Vanjara (81-82)
Vaar Siri Raag (83-91)
Bhagat Bani (91-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਝ | Raag Maajh
Gurbani (94-109)
Ashtpadi (109)
Ashtpadiyan (110-129)
Ashtpadi (129-130)
Ashtpadiyan (130-133)
Bara Maha (133-136)
Din Raen (136-137)
Vaar Maajh Ki (137-150)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ | Raag Gauree
Gurbani (151-185)
Quartets/Couplets (185-220)
Ashtpadiyan (220-234)
Karhalei (234-235)
Ashtpadiyan (235-242)
Chhant (242-249)
Baavan Akhari (250-262)
Sukhmani (262-296)
Thittee (296-300)
Gauree kii Vaar (300-323)
Gurbani (323-330)
Ashtpadiyan (330-340)
Baavan Akhari (340-343)
Thintteen (343-344)
Vaar Kabir (344-345)
Bhagat Bani (345-346)
ਰਾਗੁ ਆਸਾ | Raag Aasaa
Gurbani (347-348)
Chaupaday (348-364)
Panchpadde (364-365)
Kaafee (365-409)
Aasaavaree (409-411)
Ashtpadiyan (411-432)
Patee (432-435)
Chhant (435-462)
Vaar Aasaa (462-475)
Bhagat Bani (475-488)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੂਜਰੀ | Raag Goojaree
Gurbani (489-503)
Ashtpadiyan (503-508)
Vaar Gujari (508-517)
Vaar Gujari (517-526)
ਰਾਗੁ ਦੇਵਗੰਧਾਰੀ | Raag Dayv-Gandhaaree
Gurbani (527-536)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਹਾਗੜਾ | Raag Bihaagraa
Gurbani (537-556)
Chhant (538-548)
Vaar Bihaagraa (548-556)
ਰਾਗੁ ਵਡਹੰਸ | Raag Wadhans
Gurbani (557-564)
Ashtpadiyan (564-565)
Chhant (565-575)
Ghoriaan (575-578)
Alaahaniiaa (578-582)
Vaar Wadhans (582-594)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੋਰਠਿ | Raag Sorath
Gurbani (595-634)
Asatpadhiya (634-642)
Vaar Sorath (642-659)
ਰਾਗੁ ਧਨਾਸਰੀ | Raag Dhanasaree
Gurbani (660-685)
Astpadhiya (685-687)
Chhant (687-691)
Bhagat Bani (691-695)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਤਸਰੀ | Raag Jaitsree
Gurbani (696-703)
Chhant (703-705)
Vaar Jaitsaree (705-710)
Bhagat Bani (710)
ਰਾਗੁ ਟੋਡੀ | Raag Todee
ਰਾਗੁ ਬੈਰਾੜੀ | Raag Bairaaree
ਰਾਗੁ ਤਿਲੰਗ | Raag Tilang
Gurbani (721-727)
Bhagat Bani (727)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੂਹੀ | Raag Suhi
Gurbani (728-750)
Ashtpadiyan (750-761)
Kaafee (761-762)
Suchajee (762)
Gunvantee (763)
Chhant (763-785)
Vaar Soohee (785-792)
Bhagat Bani (792-794)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ | Raag Bilaaval
Gurbani (795-831)
Ashtpadiyan (831-838)
Thitteen (838-840)
Vaar Sat (841-843)
Chhant (843-848)
Vaar Bilaaval (849-855)
Bhagat Bani (855-858)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੋਂਡ | Raag Gond
Gurbani (859-869)
Ashtpadiyan (869)
Bhagat Bani (870-875)
ਰਾਗੁ ਰਾਮਕਲੀ | Raag Ramkalee
Ashtpadiyan (902-916)
Gurbani (876-902)
Anand (917-922)
Sadd (923-924)
Chhant (924-929)
Dakhnee (929-938)
Sidh Gosat (938-946)
Vaar Ramkalee (947-968)
ਰਾਗੁ ਨਟ ਨਾਰਾਇਨ | Raag Nat Narayan
Gurbani (975-980)
Ashtpadiyan (980-983)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਲੀ ਗਉੜਾ | Raag Maalee Gauraa
Gurbani (984-988)
Bhagat Bani (988)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਰੂ | Raag Maaroo
Gurbani (889-1008)
Ashtpadiyan (1008-1014)
Kaafee (1014-1016)
Ashtpadiyan (1016-1019)
Anjulian (1019-1020)
Solhe (1020-1033)
Dakhni (1033-1043)
ਰਾਗੁ ਤੁਖਾਰੀ | Raag Tukhaari
Bara Maha (1107-1110)
Chhant (1110-1117)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕੇਦਾਰਾ | Raag Kedara
Gurbani (1118-1123)
Bhagat Bani (1123-1124)
ਰਾਗੁ ਭੈਰਉ | Raag Bhairo
Gurbani (1125-1152)
Partaal (1153)
Ashtpadiyan (1153-1167)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਸੰਤੁ | Raag Basant
Gurbani (1168-1187)
Ashtpadiyan (1187-1193)
Vaar Basant (1193-1196)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਾਰਗ | Raag Saarag
Gurbani (1197-1200)
Partaal (1200-1231)
Ashtpadiyan (1232-1236)
Chhant (1236-1237)
Vaar Saarang (1237-1253)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਲਾਰ | Raag Malaar
Gurbani (1254-1293)
Partaal (1265-1273)
Ashtpadiyan (1273-1278)
Chhant (1278)
Vaar Malaar (1278-91)
Bhagat Bani (1292-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਾਨੜਾ | Raag Kaanraa
Gurbani (1294-96)
Partaal (1296-1318)
Ashtpadiyan (1308-1312)
Chhant (1312)
Vaar Kaanraa
Bhagat Bani (1318)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਲਿਆਨ | Raag Kalyaan
Gurbani (1319-23)
Ashtpadiyan (1323-26)
ਰਾਗੁ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ | Raag Prabhaatee
Gurbani (1327-1341)
Ashtpadiyan (1342-51)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਜਾਵੰਤੀ | Raag Jaijaiwanti
Gurbani (1352-53)
Salok | Gatha | Phunahe | Chaubole | Swayiye
Sehskritee Mahala 1
Sehskritee Mahala 5
Gaathaa Mahala 5
Phunhay Mahala 5
Chaubolae Mahala 5
Shaloks Bhagat Kabir
Shaloks Sheikh Farid
Swaiyyae Mahala 5
Swaiyyae in Praise of Gurus
Shaloks in Addition To Vaars
Shalok Ninth Mehl
Mundavanee Mehl 5
ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ, Raag Maalaa
What's new
New posts
New media
New media comments
New resources
Latest activity
Videos
New media
New comments
Library
Latest reviews
Donate
Log in
Register
What's new
New posts
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Welcome to all New Sikh Philosophy Network Forums!
Explore Sikh Sikhi Sikhism...
Sign up
Log in
Discussions
Questions & Answers
I Refuse To Bow To Guru's Pic. Am I Right?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Tejwant Singh" data-source="post: 179139" data-attributes="member: 138"><p>Ishna ji,</p><p></p><p>Guru Fateh.</p><p></p><p>Probably I was not able to express what I wanted to say in a proper manner, so let me try it in a different way. </p><p></p><p>First and foremost, Bhagat Bani is one of the most intricate and a bit difficult to understand unlike most of The Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Guru Arjan Dev ji added Gurbani of 15 Bhagats in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, who were scattered all over India with different languages, dialects and cultural values unlike our Sikh Gurus who were all Punjabis. The 5th Guru chose some of their poetry which jived with the Sikhi marg of pragmatism. Not all of it. The Bhagats were all originally Hindus but evolved with time through their travels around India, towards the Oneness in all. Hence, only that kind of poetry was chosen by Guru Sahib.</p><p></p><p>Bhagat Namdev travelled all the way to Punjab which is thousands of miles from his birth place. They all used the mixture of different languages. So, it takes a bit of deep studies to understand the true meaning literally in the original language. </p><p></p><p>Let’s try to understand the rahao part that you posted.</p><p>ਜਿਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਪਾਇਓ ਤਿਨਹਿ ਛਪਾਇਓ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ </p><p></p><p>जिनि हरि पाइओ तिनहि छपाइओ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ </p><p></p><p>Jin har pā▫i▫o ṯinėh cẖẖapā▫i▫o. ||1|| rahā▫o. </p><p></p><p>One who has found the Lord, keeps quiet about it. ||1||Pause||</p><p></p><p>The word ਛਪਾਇਓ in Gurmukhi does not mean <strong><em><u>to keep quiet</u></em></strong> in literal translation but it means<strong><em><u> to hide, to shut up or not to flaunt.</u></em></strong>.</p><p></p><p>As Sant Singh Khalsa, the translator is a Sikh Scholar, one expects him to understand the words in the original language /Gurmukhi/Punjabi so well that they can be translated in the right manner.</p><p></p><p>Scholars are there to make things easier for a lay person like me to grasp the meaning in which Sant Singh Khalsa has failed because he has translated the Punjabi words incorrectly, hence made it more difficult to comprehend what Bhagat Namdev is talking about. It is not only in this Shabad but in most of his translation of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. BTW Gyani ji did a great service to decipher the Shabad.</p><p></p><p>One other main error is the use of the word<strong><em><u> Lord</u></em></strong> for <strong><em><u>Ik Ong Kaar</u></em></strong> We all know<strong><em> <u>Lord is used for a deity</u></em></strong> which Sikhi rejects and I personally never use it. In fact I wrote about it in a little article here on SPN many years ago. I will try to locate it and post it again. </p><p></p><p>If I am not mistaken Sant Singh Khalsa is a Sikh convert from Christianity/Judaism and from his literal translations, one can gather that he has not mastered the Gurmukhi/ Punjabi language well as yet, and it is also not possible not to carry the Christian/Judaic baggage which becomes innately etched in oneself due to the environmental and multi-generational factors.</p><p></p><p>As mentioned earlier, the original translations into English were done by the Christian Missionaries not by any Sikhs. That is why we see the old Biblical slant of the words like thou, thee, Lord etc. etc. in the translations. The Sikhs who studied under the missionaries' tutelage also used the same method. Bhai Manmohan Singh is one of them.</p><p></p><p>We are in desperate need of a great modern translation in English. Ambarsaria ji has done a great job in some and so has Findingmyway ji on Sidh Gosht. One day someone will add something more.</p><p></p><p>If you understand Gurmukhi, then I would suggest you take a look at Prof. Sahib Singh's Teeka in which Prof. ji explains the meaning of Gurbani the best so far. It would be a great start for you. I, myself use different Teekas for the same Shabad to grasp the idea better.</p><p></p><p>On a side note,for you to have a better idea about Bhagat Bani, please look at the Saloks of Sheikh Farid on SPN.</p><p></p><p>Thanks & regards</p><p></p><p>Tejwant Singh</p><p></p><p>Here we go: <a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/186-lord-as-ik-ong-kaar.html" target="_blank">http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/186-lord-as-ik-ong-kaar.html</a></p><p></p><p>One more for your consideration: <a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/questions-and-answers/26918-literal-translations-word-word-translations-gurbani.html" target="_blank">http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/questions-and-answers/26918-literal-translations-word-word-translations-gurbani.html</a></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tejwant Singh, post: 179139, member: 138"] Ishna ji, Guru Fateh. Probably I was not able to express what I wanted to say in a proper manner, so let me try it in a different way. First and foremost, Bhagat Bani is one of the most intricate and a bit difficult to understand unlike most of The Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Guru Arjan Dev ji added Gurbani of 15 Bhagats in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, who were scattered all over India with different languages, dialects and cultural values unlike our Sikh Gurus who were all Punjabis. The 5th Guru chose some of their poetry which jived with the Sikhi marg of pragmatism. Not all of it. The Bhagats were all originally Hindus but evolved with time through their travels around India, towards the Oneness in all. Hence, only that kind of poetry was chosen by Guru Sahib. Bhagat Namdev travelled all the way to Punjab which is thousands of miles from his birth place. They all used the mixture of different languages. So, it takes a bit of deep studies to understand the true meaning literally in the original language. Let’s try to understand the rahao part that you posted. ਜਿਨਿ ਹਰਿ ਪਾਇਓ ਤਿਨਹਿ ਛਪਾਇਓ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ जिनि हरि पाइओ तिनहि छपाइओ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ Jin har pā▫i▫o ṯinėh cẖẖapā▫i▫o. ||1|| rahā▫o. One who has found the Lord, keeps quiet about it. ||1||Pause|| The word ਛਪਾਇਓ in Gurmukhi does not mean [B][I][U]to keep quiet[/U][/I][/B] in literal translation but it means[B][I][U] to hide, to shut up or not to flaunt.[/U][/I][/B]. As Sant Singh Khalsa, the translator is a Sikh Scholar, one expects him to understand the words in the original language /Gurmukhi/Punjabi so well that they can be translated in the right manner. Scholars are there to make things easier for a lay person like me to grasp the meaning in which Sant Singh Khalsa has failed because he has translated the Punjabi words incorrectly, hence made it more difficult to comprehend what Bhagat Namdev is talking about. It is not only in this Shabad but in most of his translation of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. BTW Gyani ji did a great service to decipher the Shabad. One other main error is the use of the word[B][I][U] Lord[/U][/I][/B] for [B][I][U]Ik Ong Kaar[/U][/I][/B] We all know[B][I] [U]Lord is used for a deity[/U][/I][/B] which Sikhi rejects and I personally never use it. In fact I wrote about it in a little article here on SPN many years ago. I will try to locate it and post it again. If I am not mistaken Sant Singh Khalsa is a Sikh convert from Christianity/Judaism and from his literal translations, one can gather that he has not mastered the Gurmukhi/ Punjabi language well as yet, and it is also not possible not to carry the Christian/Judaic baggage which becomes innately etched in oneself due to the environmental and multi-generational factors. As mentioned earlier, the original translations into English were done by the Christian Missionaries not by any Sikhs. That is why we see the old Biblical slant of the words like thou, thee, Lord etc. etc. in the translations. The Sikhs who studied under the missionaries' tutelage also used the same method. Bhai Manmohan Singh is one of them. We are in desperate need of a great modern translation in English. Ambarsaria ji has done a great job in some and so has Findingmyway ji on Sidh Gosht. One day someone will add something more. If you understand Gurmukhi, then I would suggest you take a look at Prof. Sahib Singh's Teeka in which Prof. ji explains the meaning of Gurbani the best so far. It would be a great start for you. I, myself use different Teekas for the same Shabad to grasp the idea better. On a side note,for you to have a better idea about Bhagat Bani, please look at the Saloks of Sheikh Farid on SPN. Thanks & regards Tejwant Singh Here we go: [url]http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/186-lord-as-ik-ong-kaar.html[/url] One more for your consideration: [url]http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/questions-and-answers/26918-literal-translations-word-word-translations-gurbani.html[/url] [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Discussions
Questions & Answers
I Refuse To Bow To Guru's Pic. Am I Right?
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
Accept
Learn more…
Top