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Guru Granth Sahib
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ਜਪੁ | Jup
ਸੋ ਦਰੁ | So Dar
ਸੋਹਿਲਾ | Sohilaa
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ | Raag Siree-Raag
Gurbani (14-53)
Ashtpadiyan (53-71)
Gurbani (71-74)
Pahre (74-78)
Chhant (78-81)
Vanjara (81-82)
Vaar Siri Raag (83-91)
Bhagat Bani (91-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਝ | Raag Maajh
Gurbani (94-109)
Ashtpadi (109)
Ashtpadiyan (110-129)
Ashtpadi (129-130)
Ashtpadiyan (130-133)
Bara Maha (133-136)
Din Raen (136-137)
Vaar Maajh Ki (137-150)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ | Raag Gauree
Gurbani (151-185)
Quartets/Couplets (185-220)
Ashtpadiyan (220-234)
Karhalei (234-235)
Ashtpadiyan (235-242)
Chhant (242-249)
Baavan Akhari (250-262)
Sukhmani (262-296)
Thittee (296-300)
Gauree kii Vaar (300-323)
Gurbani (323-330)
Ashtpadiyan (330-340)
Baavan Akhari (340-343)
Thintteen (343-344)
Vaar Kabir (344-345)
Bhagat Bani (345-346)
ਰਾਗੁ ਆਸਾ | Raag Aasaa
Gurbani (347-348)
Chaupaday (348-364)
Panchpadde (364-365)
Kaafee (365-409)
Aasaavaree (409-411)
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Patee (432-435)
Chhant (435-462)
Vaar Aasaa (462-475)
Bhagat Bani (475-488)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੂਜਰੀ | Raag Goojaree
Gurbani (489-503)
Ashtpadiyan (503-508)
Vaar Gujari (508-517)
Vaar Gujari (517-526)
ਰਾਗੁ ਦੇਵਗੰਧਾਰੀ | Raag Dayv-Gandhaaree
Gurbani (527-536)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਹਾਗੜਾ | Raag Bihaagraa
Gurbani (537-556)
Chhant (538-548)
Vaar Bihaagraa (548-556)
ਰਾਗੁ ਵਡਹੰਸ | Raag Wadhans
Gurbani (557-564)
Ashtpadiyan (564-565)
Chhant (565-575)
Ghoriaan (575-578)
Alaahaniiaa (578-582)
Vaar Wadhans (582-594)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੋਰਠਿ | Raag Sorath
Gurbani (595-634)
Asatpadhiya (634-642)
Vaar Sorath (642-659)
ਰਾਗੁ ਧਨਾਸਰੀ | Raag Dhanasaree
Gurbani (660-685)
Astpadhiya (685-687)
Chhant (687-691)
Bhagat Bani (691-695)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਤਸਰੀ | Raag Jaitsree
Gurbani (696-703)
Chhant (703-705)
Vaar Jaitsaree (705-710)
Bhagat Bani (710)
ਰਾਗੁ ਟੋਡੀ | Raag Todee
ਰਾਗੁ ਬੈਰਾੜੀ | Raag Bairaaree
ਰਾਗੁ ਤਿਲੰਗ | Raag Tilang
Gurbani (721-727)
Bhagat Bani (727)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੂਹੀ | Raag Suhi
Gurbani (728-750)
Ashtpadiyan (750-761)
Kaafee (761-762)
Suchajee (762)
Gunvantee (763)
Chhant (763-785)
Vaar Soohee (785-792)
Bhagat Bani (792-794)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ | Raag Bilaaval
Gurbani (795-831)
Ashtpadiyan (831-838)
Thitteen (838-840)
Vaar Sat (841-843)
Chhant (843-848)
Vaar Bilaaval (849-855)
Bhagat Bani (855-858)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੋਂਡ | Raag Gond
Gurbani (859-869)
Ashtpadiyan (869)
Bhagat Bani (870-875)
ਰਾਗੁ ਰਾਮਕਲੀ | Raag Ramkalee
Ashtpadiyan (902-916)
Gurbani (876-902)
Anand (917-922)
Sadd (923-924)
Chhant (924-929)
Dakhnee (929-938)
Sidh Gosat (938-946)
Vaar Ramkalee (947-968)
ਰਾਗੁ ਨਟ ਨਾਰਾਇਨ | Raag Nat Narayan
Gurbani (975-980)
Ashtpadiyan (980-983)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਲੀ ਗਉੜਾ | Raag Maalee Gauraa
Gurbani (984-988)
Bhagat Bani (988)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਰੂ | Raag Maaroo
Gurbani (889-1008)
Ashtpadiyan (1008-1014)
Kaafee (1014-1016)
Ashtpadiyan (1016-1019)
Anjulian (1019-1020)
Solhe (1020-1033)
Dakhni (1033-1043)
ਰਾਗੁ ਤੁਖਾਰੀ | Raag Tukhaari
Bara Maha (1107-1110)
Chhant (1110-1117)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕੇਦਾਰਾ | Raag Kedara
Gurbani (1118-1123)
Bhagat Bani (1123-1124)
ਰਾਗੁ ਭੈਰਉ | Raag Bhairo
Gurbani (1125-1152)
Partaal (1153)
Ashtpadiyan (1153-1167)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਸੰਤੁ | Raag Basant
Gurbani (1168-1187)
Ashtpadiyan (1187-1193)
Vaar Basant (1193-1196)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਾਰਗ | Raag Saarag
Gurbani (1197-1200)
Partaal (1200-1231)
Ashtpadiyan (1232-1236)
Chhant (1236-1237)
Vaar Saarang (1237-1253)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਲਾਰ | Raag Malaar
Gurbani (1254-1293)
Partaal (1265-1273)
Ashtpadiyan (1273-1278)
Chhant (1278)
Vaar Malaar (1278-91)
Bhagat Bani (1292-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਾਨੜਾ | Raag Kaanraa
Gurbani (1294-96)
Partaal (1296-1318)
Ashtpadiyan (1308-1312)
Chhant (1312)
Vaar Kaanraa
Bhagat Bani (1318)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਲਿਆਨ | Raag Kalyaan
Gurbani (1319-23)
Ashtpadiyan (1323-26)
ਰਾਗੁ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ | Raag Prabhaatee
Gurbani (1327-1341)
Ashtpadiyan (1342-51)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਜਾਵੰਤੀ | Raag Jaijaiwanti
Gurbani (1352-53)
Salok | Gatha | Phunahe | Chaubole | Swayiye
Sehskritee Mahala 1
Sehskritee Mahala 5
Gaathaa Mahala 5
Phunhay Mahala 5
Chaubolae Mahala 5
Shaloks Bhagat Kabir
Shaloks Sheikh Farid
Swaiyyae Mahala 5
Swaiyyae in Praise of Gurus
Shaloks in Addition To Vaars
Shalok Ninth Mehl
Mundavanee Mehl 5
ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ, Raag Maalaa
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<blockquote data-quote="pk70" data-source="post: 79147" data-attributes="member: 5889"><p>Quote</p><p> God can be betrayed? Even the word God we are speaking now cannot touch the reality. Is some little mataji who prays sincerely to Krishan betraying the reality of God?</p><p> <strong> Bhain Ji, again you want to split hair, keep doing; I feel due to our long posts many would lose interest, so once I answered as I believe, please move on and stay precise instead of keep going on the same issue. I am in a position, neither I can ignore your question nor I can go precise due to question out of hair splitting. Here is what Guru ji states about calling that person GOD who takes birth and You must bear the following Shabad in mind before taking presumptive conclusion about Gurbani.</strong></p><p> <p style="text-align: center"><p style="text-align: center"><span style="color: maroon"><span style="font-family: 'GurbaniWebThick'">BYrau mhlw 5 Gru 1</span></span></p> </p><p> <span style="color: maroon"><span style="font-family: 'GurbaniWebThick'"><> siqgur pRswid ] sglI QIiq pwis fwir rwKI ] Astm QIiq goivMd jnmwsI ]1] Brim BUly nr krq kcrwiex ] jnm mrx qy rhq nwrwiex ]1] rhwau ] kir pMjIru KvwieE cor ] Ehu jnim n mrY ry swkq For ]2] sgl prwD dyih loronI <u>] so muKu jlau ijqu khih Twkuru jonI</u> ]3] <u>jnim n mrY n AwvY n jwie ] nwnk kw pRBu rihE smwie ]4]1] {pMnw 1136}</u></span></span></p><p> <strong><span style="color: #993366">( In essence: Ignoring all other days, , it is said that Almighty was born on the eighth lunar day. || 1 | Deluded and confused mortals practice falsehood. Narain, the Almighty is beyond birth and death. || 1 || Pause || You prepare sweet rice dish and feed it to deity of Krishana ( stone god). God is not born, and He does not die, you foolish, faithless o astray idiot || 2 || You sing lullabies to your deity of Krishna, this is the source of your all sins. <u>That mouth should be burnt, which says that Almighty is subject to birth. || 3 || He is not born, does not die; does not come and go in reincarnation. The God of Nanak is pervading and permeating everywhere)</u></span></strong></p><p> <strong>With this support of Guru Shabad, I shall never commit a sin to call Almighty subject to birth and death. Actually my debate with you ends with this Guru Bachan</strong></p><p> <strong>The quote you have given below again is not about mata ji’s saying, Read whole shabad, you should feel sorry how you are relating it to Mata ji. It is all about His Sargun form, nothing new, many times we discussed it. After reading above Guru ji’s Shabad in Bharon Rag, you should stop these long posts. I doubt on SPN any one can keep reading.</strong></p><p> <span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਚੋਜੀ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮੇਰੇ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਗੋਵਿੰਦਾ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਚੋਜੀ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮੇਰੇ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਪਿਆਰਿਆ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਹਰਿ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਪ੍ਰਭੁ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮੇਰਾ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਚੋਜੀ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਜੀਉ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: navy"> </span></p><p> <span style="color: navy">[/FONT]</span> <span style="color: navy">chojee maerae govindhaa chojee maerae piaariaa har prabh maeraa chojee jeeo ||</span></p><p><span style="color: navy">Playful is my Lord of the Universe; playful is my Beloved. My Lord God is wondrous and playful. </span></p><p><span style="color: navy"></span></p><p><span style="color: navy"></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਹਰਿ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਆਪੇ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੁ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਉਪਾਇਦਾ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮੇਰੇ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਗੋਵਿਦਾ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਹਰਿ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਆਪੇ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਗੋਪੀ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਖੋਜੀ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਜੀਉ</span></span><span style="color: navy"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: navy"> </span></p><p><span style="color: navy">har aapae kaanha oupaaeidhaa maerae govidhaa har aapae gopee khojee jeeo ||</span></p><p><span style="color: navy">The Lord Himself created </span><span style="color: navy">Krishna</span><span style="color: navy">, O my Lord of the Universe; the Lord Himself is the milkmaids who seek Him.</span></p><p><span style="color: navy">~SGGS Ji p. 174</span></p><p> </p><p> Quote:</p><p> <em><span style="color: darkred">Quality of spiritual goodness is learned from those ones who remain undefeated from Maya, that is not the case with either Ram( who sends away his wife to Jungle just because a washer man says” I am not like Ram, I shall keep a woman who lived in another mans’ house for that long”, Krishna keeps satisfying his promiscuous urges with ladies.</span></em> </p><p> It is true, Gurbani says:</p><p> <span style="color: darkblue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਜੁਜ</span></span><span style="color: darkblue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮਹਿ</span></span><span style="color: darkblue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਜੋਰਿ</span></span><span style="color: darkblue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਛਲੀ</span></span><span style="color: darkblue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਚੰਦ੍ਰਾਵਲਿ</span></span><span style="color: darkblue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ</span></span><span style="color: darkblue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੁ</span></span><span style="color: darkblue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਜਾਦਮੁ</span></span><span style="color: darkblue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਭਇਆ</span></span><span style="color: darkblue"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: darkblue"> </span></p><p><span style="color: darkblue">juj mehi jor shhalee chandhraaval kaanh kirasan jaadham bhaeiaa ||</span></p><p><span style="color: darkblue">In the Jujar Veda, Kaan Krishna of the Yaadva tribe seduced Chandraavali by force. </span></p><p><span style="color: darkblue"></span></p><p><span style="color: darkblue"></span><span style="color: darkblue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਪਾਰਜਾਤੁ</span></span><span style="color: darkblue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਗੋਪੀ</span></span><span style="color: darkblue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਲੈ</span></span><span style="color: darkblue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਆਇਆ</span></span><span style="color: darkblue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਬਿੰਦ੍ਰਾਬਨ</span></span><span style="color: darkblue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮਹ</span></span><span style="color: darkblue">ਿ </span><span style="color: darkblue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਰੰਗੁ</span></span><span style="color: darkblue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕੀਆ</span></span><span style="color: darkblue"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: darkblue"> </span></p><p><span style="color: darkblue">paarajaath gopee lai aaeiaa bindhraaban mehi rang keeaa ||</span></p><p><span style="color: darkblue">He brought the Elysian Tree for his milk-maid, and revelled in Brindaaban. </span></p><p><span style="color: darkblue"></span></p><p><span style="color: darkblue"></span><span style="color: darkblue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕਲਿ</span></span><span style="color: darkblue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮਹਿ</span></span><span style="color: darkblue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਬੇਦੁ</span></span><span style="color: darkblue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਅਥਰਬਣੁ</span></span><span style="color: darkblue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਹੂਆ</span></span><span style="color: darkblue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਨਾਉ</span></span><span style="color: darkblue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਖੁਦਾਈ</span></span><span style="color: darkblue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਅਲਹੁ</span></span><span style="color: darkblue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਭਇਆ</span></span><span style="color: darkblue"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: darkblue"> </span></p><p><span style="color: darkblue">kal mehi baedh athharaban hooaa naao khudhaaee alahu bhaeiaa ||</span></p><p><span style="color: darkblue">In the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Atharva Veda became prominent; Allah became the Name of God.</span></p><p><span style="color: darkblue">~sggs jI P. 470</span></p><p> </p><p>You say, <span style="color: darkgreen">"Quality of spiritual goodness is learned from those ones who remain undefeated from Maya.</span> Liberation cannot be obtained from someone defeated by Maya. But you are talking quality of spiritual goodness as if there is no deva, no avatar, no religion of the past had any spiritual goodness. Yet, is that what Gurbani means when it says:</p><p> <span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਦੀਨਾ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਦੀਨ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਦਇਆਲ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਭਏ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਹੈ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਜਿਉ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੁ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਬਿਦਰ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਘਰਿ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਆਇਆ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: blue"> </span></p><p><span style="color: blue">dheenaa dheen dhaeiaal bheae hai jio kirasan bidhar ghar aaeiaa ||</span></p><p><span style="color: blue">God is Merciful to the meekest of the meek; [/FONT]</span><span style="color: blue">Krishna[/FONT]</span><span style="color: blue"> came to the house of Bidar, a devotee of low social status. </span></p><p><span style="color: blue">[/FONT]</span><strong><span style="color: black">Krishna was well known in His times as story goes, being so well known, he visits poor friend, it was praised, nothing more than that, your stubborn [/FONT]</span></strong></p><p> <strong><span style="color: black">approach has no even bearing here about what I proved with Guru shabad, very wrongfully and unsuccessfully, you are trying to take support from Gurbani.</span></strong><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮਿਲਿਓ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸੁਦਾਮਾ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਭਾਵਨੀ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਧਾਰਿ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸਭੁ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕਿਛੁ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਆਗੈ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਦਾਲਦੁ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਭੰਜਿ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸਮਾਇਆ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">੪॥</span></span><span style="color: blue"> </span></p><p><span style="color: blue">miliou sudhaamaa bhaavanee dhhaar sabh kishh aagai dhaaladh bhanj samaaeiaa ||4||</span></p><p><span style="color: blue">Sudama loved God, who came to meet him; God sent everything to his home, and ended his poverty. ||4||</span></p><p><span style="color: blue">~SGGS Ji p. 1191</span></p><p> <strong>Bhain ji, how it could be possible that Krishan be accepted as GOD after reading Shabad of Fifth Nanak in Bhairo Rag, quoted above? Only two things can happen, above quoted Guru Shabad is not acceptable to you or to those who guide you to take different meaning, or Hindu nostalgia takes over the quality of understanding and find </strong><strong>Krishna</strong><strong> as God in your quote</strong></p><p> <span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਜਿਨ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਤੂ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਜਪਿਓ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਤੇਈ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਜਨ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਨੀਕੇ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਹਰਿ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਜਪਤਿਅਹੁ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕਉ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸੁਖੁ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਪਾਵੈਗੋ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: purple"> </span></p><p><span style="color: purple">jin thoo japiou thaeee jan neekae har japathiahu ko sukh paavaigo ||</span></p><p><span style="color: purple">Those humble beings who meditate on You are noble and exalted. Meditating on the Lord, they are at peace. </span></p><p><span style="color: purple"></span></p><p><span style="color: purple"></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਬਿਦਰ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਦਾਸੀ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸੁਤੁ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਛੋਕ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਛੋਹਰਾ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੁ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਅੰਕਿ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਗਲਿ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਲਾਵੈਗੋ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">੨॥</span></span><span style="color: purple"> </span></p><p><span style="color: purple">bidhar dhaasee suth shhok shhoharaa kirasan ank gal laavaigo ||2||</span></p><p><span style="color: purple">Bidur, the son of a slave-girl, was an untouchable, but </span><span style="color: purple">Krishna</span><span style="color: purple"> hugged him close in His Embrace. ||2|| </span></p><p><span style="color: purple"></span></p><p><span style="color: purple"></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਜਲ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਤੇ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਓਪਤਿ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਭਈ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਹੈ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕਾਸਟ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕਾਸਟ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਅੰਗਿ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਤਰਾਵੈਗੋ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: purple"> </span></p><p><span style="color: purple">jal thae oupath bhee hai kaasatt kaasatt ang tharaavaigo ||</span></p><p><span style="color: purple">Wood is produced from water, but by holding onto wood, one is saved from drowning.</span></p><p><span style="color: purple"></span></p><p><span style="color: purple"></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਰਾਮ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਜਨਾ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਹਰਿ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਆਪਿ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸਵਾਰੇ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਅਪਨਾ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਬਿਰਦੁ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਰਖਾਵੈਗੋ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">੩॥</span></span><span style="color: purple"> </span></p><p><span style="color: purple">raam janaa har aap savaarae apanaa biradh rakhaavaigo ||3||</span></p><p><span style="color: purple">The Lord Himself embellishes and exalts His humble servants; He confirms His Innate </span></p><p> <span style="color: purple">Nature. ||3||</span></p><p><span style="color: purple">~SGGS Ji p. 1309</span></p><p> <strong>God acted through Krishna, as all is His play, what makes you to quote this Shabad here? Reference is not given to stick to it but to inspire others from it, means from bad one to go away, from good one to take it positively. Your problem is you cannot over come the reference’s existence in Gurbani and are sticking to them , more over, implying imaginative meanings to them and without being unaware that you are distorting the Guru message</strong>.</p><p> <span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕਿਸੁ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਜਾਤਿ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਤੇ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕਿਹ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਪਦਹਿ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਅਮਰਿਓ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਰਾਮ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਭਗਤਿ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਬਿਸੇਖ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">੧॥</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਰਹਾਉ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: blue"> </span></p><p><span style="color: blue">kis jaath thae kih padhehi amariou raam bhagath bisaekh ||1|| rehaao ||</span></p><p><span style="color: blue">From such a low social status, what a high status he obtained! Devotional worship to the Lord is sublime! ||1||Pause|| </span></p><p><span style="color: blue"></span></p><p><span style="color: blue">[/FONT]</span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸੁਆਨ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸਤ੍ਰੁ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਅਜਾਤੁ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸਭ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਤੇ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਲਾਵੈ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਹੇਤੁ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: blue"> </span></p><p><span style="color: blue">suaan sathra ajaath sabh thae kirasa laavai haeth ||</span></p><p><span style="color: blue">The killer of dogs, the lowest of all, was lovingly embraced by [/FONT]</span><span style="color: blue">Krishna[/FONT]</span><span style="color: blue">. </span></p><p> <span style="color: blue">[/FONT]</span> <span style="color: blue"></span></p><p><span style="color: blue"></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਲੋਗੁ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਬਪੁਰਾ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕਿਆ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸਰਾਹੈ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਤੀਨਿ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਲੋਕ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਪ੍ਰਵੇਸ</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">੨॥</span></span><span style="color: blue"> </span></p><p><span style="color: blue">log bapuraa kiaa saraahai theen lok pravaes ||2||</span></p><p><span style="color: blue">See how the poor people praise him! His praise extends throughout the three worlds. ||2</span></p><p><span style="color: blue">~SGGS Ji p. 1124</span></p><p> </p><p>To say that God could not manifest in Krishna is same as saying no one in the world, in any past age, in any other religion could have God except for Sikhs. </p><p> <strong>That is only your views only. <u>Manifestation and incarnation are two different terms </u>and give totally different meaning; keep spinning, meaningless remains meaningless.</strong></p><p> </p><p> </p><p> And it is not what Gurbani says. Gurbani says the world cannot have liberation without Guruji's Naam. This is true.</p><p> <strong>Thanks for saying that</strong></p><p> But you are implying these people don't have God.</p><p> <strong>What were you reading Bhain ji?</strong></p><p> That isn't what Gurbani is saying. Gurbani says God manifested through the Hindu devas, and is named Allah, depending on the age. Or are you suggesting the monotheism of the West is true, so Vaheguru is manifest as Allah and the unameable Jewish God YHWH, but not through Hindu devas which Gurbani uses to call for names of God, Ram, Gobind? </p><p> <strong>I can see why you are bent upon mixing up things; you have taken manifestation as incarnation. You have to sort it out why two different terms you are using in the same manner. Now another big slippery path you are trying to walk on by stating that Gurbani calls God with Ram, Gobind. Actually it is said in Gurbani that He has many names, for Guru ji and his followers, only HE is Ram, HE is Krishna, He is Allah, it does not say that Ram, Krishna, Gobind were Gods, for God’s sake, watch what you write in context of Gurbani, as quoted above Guru directly says to us that any one calls birth taking individual God, must his/her tongue be burnt.</strong></p><p> </p><p> With this Islamic logic, do you reject also the God of Christians which is NOT a monotheistic One, but a Trinity including a Divine human incarnation as Jesus? Or, do you accept that a manifestation of the Parabrahm exists in the world, but the most complete manifestation which can liberate even the Hindu devas in age of Kalyug is the Guru?</p><p> </p><p><strong>Bhain ji, I am Sikh, I strongly feel all is HIS play, whatever they believe in, also is HIS Will. Who is right who is wrong, I am not supposed to say about them. For Gods sake doesn’t ask such questions. A long post was posted and explained to you that He permeates in His Creation, then why this question. Are you just enjoying posting long posts because you are bringing those things again and again which were answered many times.</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p>Clearly Guru is higher than Krishna. Guru has accomplished more than any Hindu deva, and still people say Guru is only an ordinary human, or a prophet. How can this be? Sikhs are not told anywhere to worship Krishna. It is Sikh dharam to go directly to the source, Parabrahm, Vaheguru. But how can Sikhs deny that Parabrahm was also manifest in Krishna if that is what Gurbani says? That is not to say, as Vaishanvs say, that Krishna is the Parabrahm. We do not say that. But, according to Gurbani, that the Parabrahm manifested through Krishna for the age of Dwapar Yug and Now the Parabrahm is given directly to the Guru's Sikhs in form of the Shabad. I think it is clear Gurbani is also showing respect for Krishna and acknowledging him as an avatar, manifestation of God for the age.</p><p> <strong>Again mixing up manifestation with incarnation concept. Why do you want to discuss with me what other people say about Guru Nanak here?. Please let me remain attached to Guru Granth Sahib ji, rest does not interest me.</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong></strong>If not, can you please explain the following shabad?</p><p> <span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮਧੁਸੂਦਨ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਦਾਮੋਦਰ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸੁਆਮੀ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: indigo"> </span></p><p><span style="color: indigo">madhhusoodhan dhaamodhar suaamee ||</span></p><p><span style="color: indigo">He is the Slayer of demons, our Supreme Lord and Master. </span></p><p><span style="color: indigo"></span></p><p><span style="color: indigo">[/FONT]</span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਰਿਖੀਕੇਸ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਗੋਵਰਧਨ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਧਾਰੀ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮੁਰਲੀ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮਨੋਹਰ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਹਰਿ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਰੰਗਾ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">੧॥</span></span><span style="color: indigo"> </span></p><p><span style="color: indigo">rikheekaes govaradhhan dhhaaree muralee manohar har rangaa ||1||</span></p><p><span style="color: indigo">The Supreme Rishi, the Master of the sensory organs, the uplifter of mountains, the joyful Lord playing His enticing flute. ||1||</span></p><p><span style="color: indigo"></span></p><p><span style="color: indigo">[/FONT]</span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮੋਹਨ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮਾਧਵ</span></span><strong><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨ</span></span></strong><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮੁਰਾਰੇ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: indigo"> </span></p><p><span style="color: indigo">mohan maadhhav <strong>kirasa</strong> muraarae ||</span></p><p><span style="color: indigo">The Enticer of Hearts, the Lord of wealth, [/FONT]</span><strong><span style="color: indigo">Krishna[/FONT]</span></strong><span style="color: indigo">, the Enemy of ego. </span></p><p><span style="color: indigo"></span></p><p><span style="color: indigo">[/FONT]</span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਜਗਦੀਸੁਰ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਹਰਿ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਜੀਉ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਅਸੁਰ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸੰਘਾਰੇ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: indigo"> </span></p><p><span style="color: indigo">jagadheesur har jeeo asur sanghaarae ||</span></p><p><span style="color: indigo">The Lord of the Universe, the Dear Lord, the Destroyer of demons. </span></p><p><span style="color: indigo"></span></p><p><span style="color: indigo">[/FONT]</span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਜਗਜੀਵਨ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਠਾਕੁਰ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਘਟ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਘਟ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਵਾਸੀ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਹੈ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸੰਗਾ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">੨॥</span></span><span style="color: indigo"> </span></p><p><span style="color: indigo">jagajeevan abinaasee thaakur ghatt ghatt vaasee hai sangaa ||2||</span></p><p><span style="color: indigo">The Life of the World, our eternal and ever-stable Lord and Master dwells within each and every heart, and is always with us. ||2|| </span></p><p><span style="color: indigo"></span></p><p><span style="color: indigo">[/FONT]</span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਧਰਣੀਧਰ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਈਸ</span></span><strong><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਨਰਸਿੰਘ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਨਾਰਾਇਣ</span></span></strong><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: indigo"> </span></p><p> <span style="color: indigo">[/FONT]</span> <span style="color: indigo">The Support of the Earth, <strong>the man-lion</strong>,<strong> the Supreme Lord God. </strong></span></p><p><span style="color: indigo"><strong></strong></span></p><p><span style="color: indigo"></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਦਾੜਾ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਅਗ੍ਰੇ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਿ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਧਰਾਇਣ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: indigo"> </span></p><p><span style="color: indigo">dhaarraa agrae prithham dhharaaein ||</span></p><p><span style="color: indigo">The Protector who tears apart demons with His teeth, the Upholder of the earth. </span></p><p><span style="color: indigo"></span></p><p><span style="color: indigo"></span><strong><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਬਾਵਨ</span></span></strong><strong><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਰੂਪ</span></span></strong><span style="color: indigo">ੁ </span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕੀਆ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਤੁਧੁ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕਰਤੇ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸਭ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਹੀ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸੇਤੀ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਹੈ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਚੰਗਾ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">੩॥</span></span><span style="color: indigo"> </span></p><p><span style="color: indigo"><strong>baavan roop</strong> keeaa thudhh karathae sabh hee saethee hai changaa ||3||</span></p><p><span style="color: indigo"><strong>O Creator, You assumed the form of</strong> the pygmy to humble the demons; You are the Lord God of all. ||3|| </span></p><p><span style="color: indigo"></span></p><p><span style="color: indigo"></span><strong><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸ੍ਰੀ</span></span></strong><strong><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਰਾਮਚੰਦ</span></span></strong><strong><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਜਿਸੁ</span></span></strong><strong><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਰੂਪੁ</span></span></strong><strong><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਨ</span></span></strong><strong><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਰੇਖਿਆ</span></span></strong><strong><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: indigo"> </span></strong></p><p><strong><span style="color: indigo">sree raamachandh jis roop n raekhiaa ||</span></strong></p><p><strong><span style="color: indigo">You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature. </span></strong><span style="color: indigo"></span></p><p><span style="color: indigo"></span></p><p><span style="color: indigo"></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਬਨਵਾਲੀ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਦਰਸਿ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਅਨੂਪਿਆ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: indigo"> </span></p><p><span style="color: indigo">banavaalee chakrapaan dharas anoopiaa ||</span></p><p><span style="color: indigo">Adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in Your hand, Your form is incomparably beautiful. </span></p><p><span style="color: indigo"></span></p><p><span style="color: indigo"></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸਹਸ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਨੇਤ੍ਰ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮੂਰਤਿ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਹੈ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸਹਸਾ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਇਕੁ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਦਾਤਾ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸਭ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਹੈ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮੰਗਾ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">੪॥</span></span><span style="color: indigo"> </span></p><p><span style="color: indigo">sehas naethr moorath hai sehasaa eik dhaathaa sabh hai mangaa ||4||</span></p><p><span style="color: indigo">You have thousands of eyes, and thousands of forms. You alone are the Giver, and all are beggars of You. ||4|| </span></p><p><span style="color: indigo"></span></p><p><span style="color: indigo"></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਭਗਤਿ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਵਛਲੁ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਅਨਾਥਹ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਨਾਥੇ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: indigo"> </span></p><p><span style="color: indigo">bhagath vashhal anaathheh naathhae ||</span></p><p><span style="color: indigo">You are the Lover of Your devotees, the Master of the masterless. </span></p><p><span style="color: indigo"></span></p><p><span style="color: indigo"></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਗੋਪੀ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਨਾਥੁ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸਗਲ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਹੈ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸਾਥੇ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: indigo"> </span></p><p><span style="color: indigo">gopee naathh sagal hai saathhae ||</span></p><p><span style="color: indigo">The Lord and Master of the milk-maids, You are the companion of all. </span></p><p> <strong><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਨਿਰੰਜਨ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਦਾਤ</span></span></strong><span style="color: indigo">ੇ [/FONT]</span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਬਰਨਿ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਨ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸਾਕਉ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਗੁਣ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਅੰਗਾ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">੫॥</span></span><span style="color: indigo"> </span></p><p><span style="color: indigo"><strong>baasudhaev niranjan dhaathae</strong> baran n saako gun angaa ||5||</span></p><p><span style="color: indigo"><strong>O Lord, Immacuate Great Giver,</strong> I cannot describe even an iota of Your Glorious Virtues. ||5 </span></p><p><span style="color: indigo"></span></p><p><span style="color: indigo">[/FONT]</span><strong><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮੁਕੰਦ</span></span></strong><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮਨੋਹਰ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਲਖਮੀ</span></span><strong><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਨਾਰਾਇਣ</span></span></strong><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: indigo"> </span></p><p><span style="color: indigo"><strong>mukandh</strong> manohar lakhamee<strong> naaraaein</strong> ||</span></p><p><span style="color: indigo"><strong>Liberator</strong>, Enticing Lord, Lord of Lakshmi, <strong>Supreme Lord God. </strong></span></p><p><span style="color: indigo"></span></p><p><span style="color: indigo">[/FONT]</span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਲਜਾ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਨਿਵਾਰਿ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਉਧਾਰਣ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: indigo"> </span></p><p><span style="color: indigo">dhropathee lajaa nivaar oudhhaaran ||</span></p><p><span style="color: indigo">Savior of Dropadi's honor. </span></p><p><span style="color: indigo">[/FONT]</span> <strong><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕਮਲਾਕੰਤ</span></span></strong><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕਰਹਿ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕੰਤੂਹਲ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਅਨਦ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਬਿਨੋਦੀ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਨਿਹਸੰਗਾ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">੬॥</span></span><span style="color: indigo"> </span></p><p><span style="color: indigo"><strong>kamalaakanth</strong> karehi kanthoohal anadh binodhee nihasangaa ||6||</span></p><p><span style="color: indigo"><strong>Lord of Maya</strong>, miracle-worker, absorbed in delightful play, unattached. ||6|| </span></p><p><span style="color: indigo"></span></p><p><span style="color: indigo"></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਅਮੋਘ</span></span><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਦਰਸਨ</span></span><strong><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਆਜੂਨੀ</span></span></strong><strong><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸੰਭਉ</span></span></strong><span style="color: indigo"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: indigo"> </span></p><p><span style="color: indigo">amogh dharasan<strong> aajoonee sanbho</strong> ||</span></p><p><span style="color: indigo">The Blessed Vision of His Darshan is fruitful and rewarding; <strong>He is not born, He is self-existent.</strong></span></p><p><span style="color: indigo">~SGGS JI p. 1082</span></p><p><span style="color: indigo"></span><strong><span style="color: black">Bhain ji, you need to first understand what Gurbani is all about. It has two main purposes, to dispel allusions from the people as some members of society put in them through references and stories. Taking their own popular stories, Guru ji has given credit to the real DOER, all otherwise were medium, Almighty, in simple words, makes people do all. Attempt is to take people to DIRECT SOURCE- HIM. In the Above Shabad, it is HIM who deserves the Credit. Even Guru ji says about Guru’s exceptional job is HIS blessings,it is HE who has taken Guru to the highest(GGSJi 311) Coming into birth and death is a kind of punishment( aap bhulaye Nanaka pach pach joni pahe M5), any one goes through it, literally experiences that punishment.. Here again, any thing done by Guru is actually done by HIM” Gur Satguru kai mun PARBRAHM hai, PARBRAHM shadaaee”. This was one aspect of Gurbani, giving credit only to HIM. Second one is to give the people right path – </span></strong><strong><span style="color: black">Nam</span></strong><strong><span style="color: black"> Simran, treating the rest as mortal and not helpful for the soul. The message is simple, if one wants to detour and wander around; it is also his/her destiny as per His Hukm. In this Shabad, while referring to HIS sargun form and displayed actions, Guru ji in the end makes it clear that HE is that RAM who has no form, who is birth less. If HE is that Ram Chand who has no form, obviously other Ram becomes just HIS sargun sroop as you are and the rest. Nothing is advocated in favor of those about who you have been debating with me by repeating almost same kind of questioning. </span></strong></p><p> <strong><span style="color: indigo"></span></strong></p><p> <strong><span style="color: indigo"></span></strong></p><p> <strong><span style="color: indigo"></span></strong></p><p> </p><p> </p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">If Krishna is in sargun form so are you is something I already said. <strong><em>However</em></strong>, the diference between you and Krishna is that<em><u> he is an avtar</u></em>. As an avtar he is recognized as a <em><u>deva</u></em>, a being higher than an ordinary man, who descends to the lower sansaaric level for the purpose of being a light in the world.</li> </ul><p> <strong>What light he gave? to enjoy with ladies or vise versa?, and keep seducing each other by praising one when other ones are not present!, what light you are talking about Bhain Ji?</strong></p><p> </p><p> </p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> So consider the age when Krishna was appearing, do you think krishna and whole of Bhagavad-Gita are worthless and have no light of God because Krishna was also caught by Maya?</li> </ul><p> <strong>As a Sikh, for me, YES. For a Hindu, it is Alright, I respect his faith; he is destined to believe him as per HIS Hukm.</strong></p><p> Does this make Krishna of the same level as some pakhandi baba? If a quality of an avtar is descent from God, and the ability to be in <em><u>state of God-consciousness</u></em>, than in that frame an avtar is <em><u>NOT in Maya</u></em>, and not speaking from personality of incarnation, but of the God Himself. </p><p> <strong>Have you studied any promiscuous story about Jesus? You compare a saintly holy man with a promiscuous man that says it all about your love for </strong><strong>Krishna</strong><strong>. Who wrote Gita? </strong><strong>Krishna</strong><strong>? Any man who has out of control sex drive cannot be raised to be high level. Some get propaganda but some better ones don’t. Who knows Bhagat Puran Singh? In </strong><strong>India</strong><strong> people know more Ramdev Yogi than Bhagat ji. “( Navan khanda vich janie, …..., so I don’t care if one is known in the world, I respect and bow to Bhagat Puran Singh ji) Do You know that Gandhi has been portrayed as a spiritual man but in reality he was not more than a politician( Read a book by his own grand son and a book by GB SINGH), even those who portray him as a spiritual man do not follow his non violence policy, it is all politics. It is a world inflicted with Maya, who is high who is low only HE knows. Krishna was merely a sargun Sroop as other human beings( KETE ), not a incarnation of PRABH JI. OSHO spoke against Hinduism and Jesus’s being without father (In my view it is stooping low just to find something to say bad) but praised </strong><strong>Krishna</strong><strong> because he fitted in Osho’s style. May be it is too much, why should I lie?</strong></p><p> </p><p>Gurbani says the Parabrahm manifested in the physical reality. The very process of manifesting in the 3 gunas and duality gives rise to Maya. The power of the Parabrahm is diffused when it enters into materiality. So Gurbani isn't saying the avataras were fake or did not have manifestation of Parabrahm for the age. Gurbani is saying the God's power comes under influence of Maya, because Maya is an element of the physical dimension, which is what Parabrahm Nirankaar has Himself created! He created reality this way! God is not trying to alter the creation, it serves a purpose. The Maya and the gunas are a property of deliberate design! Only the Shabad is free of Maya in the sansaara. And this is something new from any previous age and required because the 4 legs of religion were lost in Kalyug.</p><p> <strong>What you are discussing here Bhain ji? Once His two forms are discussed why to repeat?</strong></p><p> Avtar is still meaning avtar.</p><p> <strong> Please STICK TO IT, WAHEGURU ANG SANG.</strong></p><p> Not just incarnated and born, but, incarnation of the Jyot of God coming into sansaara from very high level of reality. Gurbani clearly recognizes Krishan as a deva. So an avtar is not like a prophet who is fully human, but God gives a message to that prophet and he testifies the message God gives him. In this we see Guruji is an avtar, not a prophet, or </p><p>[/FONT] Gurbani would be saying Guru is a prophet not an avtar. As a prophet, Guruji would be fully human and ignorant. But God would give him a message which he should testify to the world. This is not what Gurbani says. It says Guru is merged in the Jyot and has God-consciousness. Guru Himself, in that state of merging does not speak as an ordinary human.</p><p></p><p>The thing is we are also seeing Gurbani say Krishna is an avtar. Since he preceded Guruji, he is less than Guruji in the sense that Guru is a more complete manifestation of the Jyot of Vaheguru which was necessary for age of Kaliyug. Is there some other way you can explain this pauri?</p><p> <strong>WHAT A GREAT CONFUSION TO ENJOY. WONDERFUL JOB, PICTURE WITH NOTHINGNESS. Regarding the pauri( actually Saveeai), some one taught you wrong, I strongly feel, I must comment on it if you are determined to use it in favor of incarnation.</strong></p><p> <span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸਤਜੁਗਿ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਤੈ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮਾਣਿਓ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਛਲਿਓ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਬਲਿ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਬਾਵਨ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਭਾਇਓ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: purple"> </span></p><p><span style="color: purple">sathajug thai maaniou shhaliou bal baavan bhaaeiou ||</span></p><p><span style="color: purple">In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf. </span></p><p><span style="color: purple"></span></p><p><span style="color: purple"></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਤੈ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮਾਣਿਓ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਰਾਮੁ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕਹਾਇਓ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: purple"> </span></p><p><span style="color: purple">thraethai thai maaniou raam raghuvans kehaaeiou ||</span></p><p><span style="color: purple">In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty. </span></p><p><span style="color: purple"></span></p><p><span style="color: purple"></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਮੁਰਾਰਿ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕੰਸੁ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕੀਓ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: purple"> </span></p><p><span style="color: purple">dhuaapur kirasan muraar kans kirathaarathh keeou ||</span></p><p><span style="color: purple">In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans. </span></p><p><span style="color: purple"></span></p><p><span style="color: purple"></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕਉ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਰਾਜੁ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਅਭੈ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਭਗਤਹ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਜਨ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਦੀਓ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: purple"> </span></p><p><span style="color: purple">ougrasain ko raaj abhai bhagatheh jan dheeou ||</span></p><p><span style="color: purple">You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness. </span></p><p><span style="color: purple"></span></p><p><span style="color: purple"></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਨਾਨਕ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਗੁਰੁ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਅੰਗਦੁ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਅਮਰੁ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਕਹਾਇਓ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: purple"> </span></p><p><span style="color: purple">kalijug pramaan naanak gur angadh amar kehaaeiou ||</span></p><p><span style="color: purple">In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das. </span></p><p><span style="color: purple"></span></p><p><span style="color: purple"></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਸ੍ਰੀ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਗੁਰੂ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਰਾਜੁ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਅਬਿਚਲੁ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਅਟਲੁ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਆਦਿ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਪੁਰਖਿ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">ਫੁਰਮਾਇਓ</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Mangal'">॥</span></span><span style="color: purple"><span style="font-family: 'Raavi'">੭॥</span></span><span style="color: purple"> </span></p><p><span style="color: purple">sree guroo raaj abichal attal aadh purakh furamaaeiou ||7||</span></p><p><span style="color: purple">The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent, according the Command of the Primal Lord God. ||7||</span></p><p><span style="color: purple">~SGGS Ji p. 1390</span></p><p> <strong><span style="color: black">All these Sawaeea are written by Bhat Nallh in praise of Satguru Nanak. In respect he is attributing all prevailed known acts and previously known ones to Guru ji. All such praises means to admit supremacy of Guru Nanak over all of them, nothing more than that. <u>Remember those Bhagatas are also singing who historically came on this earth before Guru Nanak, that states all about Guru Nanak’s supremacy</u>. Even for me, Guru Nanak is my world. I was in deep quagmire and Guru ji guidance has taken me out of it to walk on right path. I am not comparing myself with any one( it is just a humble admission); I am just justifying the point of praising Guru ji.</span></strong></p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p></p><p> Veerji, as I pointed out the very process of descending into the sansaara gives rise to Maya. And for this reason, in this age, all avataars and devas are insufficient. So the Parabrahm Himself descended as the Shabad.</p><p> <strong>USE ANY WORD DESCEND OR OTHER ONE BUT HE DOES NOT TAKE BIRTH (AJOONI) IN HIS INFINITY. HIS SARGUN FORM IS EVERY WHERE<u>. THE INCARNATION POINT OF VIEW REDUCES HIS INFINITY TO SINGLE ENTITY OF A HUMAN BODY. </u>THAT I CANNOT APPRECIATE AND ACCEPT IT. GURU [/FONT]</strong><u><span style="color: red">JI Supports[/FONT]</span></u><strong> ME ON THIS IDEA.</strong></p><p><strong>[/FONT]</strong></p><p>There are many levels to God-consciousness as there are levels of reality or dimensions. Beyond even the dimensions is the infinity of nothingness which is described as nirguna. Only Guruji has perceived them all. Only Guru has gone to the infinite depth of the nirgun. But the discussion is not whether [/FONT]Krishna[/FONT] speaking from God-consciousness for Dwapara Yug takes something away from Guruji or threatens the Sikh identity. Clearly the Sikh identity is in Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Whatever is expressed there is from Guru. So it is Sikh. There are many schools of thought in Hinduism. And all of them contrast in some way with Sikh teaching. Krishan isn't important to a Sikh. We don't meditate on Hindu devas or scriptures. But the discussion was expressed that a Sikh can't tolerate [/FONT]Krishna[/FONT]'s declaration of being the God. I don't see this disqualification of Hindu religion in Gurbani. It fulfilled a certain role for a certain age and was a manifestation of the God. I don't see where a Sikh can't tolerate anything. We have Gurbani. Nothing is a threat to us. [/FONT]Krishna[/FONT] is not for us the Primal Absolute. But equally, Krishan appears to be recognized as an avtar in Gurbani with God-consciousness so that Narayan was speaking </p><p>[/FONT] through him. If this interpretation is incorrect, and not to mention the many places in Dasam Granth which relates story of Krishanavtaar including where his mother perceived him to be God incarnate? If this is so unaaceptable, why didn't Guruji modify Dasam Granth bani to reflect that Krishan was not a manifestation of God, only thinking he was mistakenly? Even Bhai Gurdas Ji says this:</p><p> <strong>Here you are walking on a very gray area, there will be battle of words which I avoid due to my commitment to do some thing more productive than getting into circle of debate where you get nothing of merit but accusations from some Sikhs (regardless the amrit ceremony people took ). Not a single historical and Scientific fact were ever given by them in favor of what they think is rightI but very low kind of personal spitting takes place where even simple question is asked. So please let me stay out of it. If I cannot convince you with Gurbani( I do not consider All Dasm Granth as Gurbani, hate me, love me, or call me misguided, lost, not a Sikh, it doesn’t matter to me, for me only judge is HIM</strong>), <strong>I would rather be quiet.</strong></p><p> Quote:</p><p> <em><span style="color: darkred">I strongly say, regardless of their references, even as Sargun form of HIM, they are not helpful as most of His other sargun form is not. This idea to make any kind of link to our Guru ji or Gurbachan is silly and uncalled for.</span></em> </p><p> Gurbani makes the link. The point of this discussion was not how Sikhs should idolize Krishna, but to answer objections that Hindu belief is intolerable for a Sikh.</p><p> <strong>Gurbani refers to them as HIS Sargun Sroop but credit gives to HIM only, therefore, your saying that Gurbani makes link to them is your illusion, for me picture is clear, no link but a reference. I made it clear that for Sikhs <u>they are of no importance to guide except Guru and I would keep sayig till last breath because that is what Guru asks me to believe in.</u></strong></p><p> </p><p> We worship the Supreme Vaheguru. And Gurbani acknowledges that this Supreme uncreated aspect is manifest in creation and in incarnations such as Krishanavataar. Both the nirgun and sargun are the One god. Otherwise it would be a pantheism of many gods. But Gurbani says everything derives from the Absolute uncreated Nirankaar.</p><p> <strong> First you call HIM <u>NIRANKAR,</u> and then declare about HIS incarnation<u>,</u> obviously you are contradicting yourself. Please keep the identity of the words (manifestation and incarnation) different as per Guru Bachan 1.” AJOONI(Jap Ji), “Nanak Nirbhau Nirankar, hor kete Ram rawal=Asa Dee Vaar”, “Dharnidhar aap ajoni tol bol Sach poora= Onkaar M-1)</strong></p><p> <strong>2. Manifestation is Sargun Sroop(sarb jot teri passr rahi, jah jah teh NARHARI = Ram Kli M1” , “Jah jah dekha tah PIR hai bhaee…Sohi M-5”</strong></p><p> <strong><u>So beauty of stars at night can only be enjoyed if sky is clear!!</u></strong></p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="color: indigo"> </span></p><p> <span style="color: indigo">[/FONT]</span></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pk70, post: 79147, member: 5889"] Quote God can be betrayed? Even the word God we are speaking now cannot touch the reality. Is some little mataji who prays sincerely to Krishan betraying the reality of God? [B] Bhain Ji, again you want to split hair, keep doing; I feel due to our long posts many would lose interest, so once I answered as I believe, please move on and stay precise instead of keep going on the same issue. I am in a position, neither I can ignore your question nor I can go precise due to question out of hair splitting. Here is what Guru ji states about calling that person GOD who takes birth and You must bear the following Shabad in mind before taking presumptive conclusion about Gurbani.[/B] [CENTER][CENTER][COLOR=maroon][FONT=GurbaniWebThick]BYrau mhlw 5 Gru 1[/FONT][/COLOR][/CENTER] [/CENTER] [COLOR=maroon][FONT=GurbaniWebThick]<> siqgur pRswid ] sglI QIiq pwis fwir rwKI ] Astm QIiq goivMd jnmwsI ]1] Brim BUly nr krq kcrwiex ] jnm mrx qy rhq nwrwiex ]1] rhwau ] kir pMjIru KvwieE cor ] Ehu jnim n mrY ry swkq For ]2] sgl prwD dyih loronI [U]] so muKu jlau ijqu khih Twkuru jonI[/U] ]3] [U]jnim n mrY n AwvY n jwie ] nwnk kw pRBu rihE smwie ]4]1] {pMnw 1136}[/U][/FONT][/COLOR] [B][COLOR=#993366]( In essence: Ignoring all other days, , it is said that Almighty was born on the eighth lunar day. || 1 | Deluded and confused mortals practice falsehood. Narain, the Almighty is beyond birth and death. || 1 || Pause || You prepare sweet rice dish and feed it to deity of Krishana ( stone god). God is not born, and He does not die, you foolish, faithless o astray idiot || 2 || You sing lullabies to your deity of Krishna, this is the source of your all sins. [U]That mouth should be burnt, which says that Almighty is subject to birth. || 3 || He is not born, does not die; does not come and go in reincarnation. The God of Nanak is pervading and permeating everywhere)[/U][/COLOR][/B] [B]With this support of Guru Shabad, I shall never commit a sin to call Almighty subject to birth and death. Actually my debate with you ends with this Guru Bachan[/B] [B]The quote you have given below again is not about mata ji’s saying, Read whole shabad, you should feel sorry how you are relating it to Mata ji. It is all about His Sargun form, nothing new, many times we discussed it. After reading above Guru ji’s Shabad in Bharon Rag, you should stop these long posts. I doubt on SPN any one can keep reading.[/B] [COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਚੋਜੀ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਮੇਰੇ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਗੋਵਿੰਦਾ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਚੋਜੀ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਮੇਰੇ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਪਿਆਰਿਆ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਹਰਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਪ੍ਰਭੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਮੇਰਾ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਚੋਜੀ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਜੀਉ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy] [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=navy]chojee maerae govindhaa chojee maerae piaariaa har prabh maeraa chojee jeeo || Playful is my Lord of the Universe; playful is my Beloved. My Lord God is wondrous and playful. [/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਹਰਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਆਪੇ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਉਪਾਇਦਾ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਮੇਰੇ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਗੋਵਿਦਾ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਹਰਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਆਪੇ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਗੋਪੀ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਖੋਜੀ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Raavi]ਜੀਉ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=navy] har aapae kaanha oupaaeidhaa maerae govidhaa har aapae gopee khojee jeeo || The Lord Himself created [/COLOR][COLOR=navy]Krishna[/COLOR][COLOR=navy], O my Lord of the Universe; the Lord Himself is the milkmaids who seek Him. ~SGGS Ji p. 174[/COLOR] Quote: [I][COLOR=darkred]Quality of spiritual goodness is learned from those ones who remain undefeated from Maya, that is not the case with either Ram( who sends away his wife to Jungle just because a washer man says” I am not like Ram, I shall keep a woman who lived in another mans’ house for that long”, Krishna keeps satisfying his promiscuous urges with ladies.[/COLOR][/I] It is true, Gurbani says: [COLOR=darkblue][FONT=Raavi]ਜੁਜ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkblue][FONT=Raavi]ਮਹਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkblue][FONT=Raavi]ਜੋਰਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkblue][FONT=Raavi]ਛਲੀ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkblue][FONT=Raavi]ਚੰਦ੍ਰਾਵਲਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkblue][FONT=Raavi]ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkblue][FONT=Raavi]ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkblue][FONT=Raavi]ਜਾਦਮੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkblue][FONT=Raavi]ਭਇਆ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkblue][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkblue] juj mehi jor shhalee chandhraaval kaanh kirasan jaadham bhaeiaa || In the Jujar Veda, Kaan Krishna of the Yaadva tribe seduced Chandraavali by force. [/COLOR][COLOR=darkblue][FONT=Raavi]ਪਾਰਜਾਤੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkblue][FONT=Raavi]ਗੋਪੀ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkblue][FONT=Raavi]ਲੈ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkblue][FONT=Raavi]ਆਇਆ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkblue][FONT=Raavi]ਬਿੰਦ੍ਰਾਬਨ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkblue][FONT=Raavi]ਮਹ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkblue]ਿ [/COLOR][COLOR=darkblue][FONT=Raavi]ਰੰਗੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkblue][FONT=Raavi]ਕੀਆ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkblue][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkblue] paarajaath gopee lai aaeiaa bindhraaban mehi rang keeaa || He brought the Elysian Tree for his milk-maid, and revelled in Brindaaban. [/COLOR][COLOR=darkblue][FONT=Raavi]ਕਲਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkblue][FONT=Raavi]ਮਹਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkblue][FONT=Raavi]ਬੇਦੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkblue][FONT=Raavi]ਅਥਰਬਣੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkblue][FONT=Raavi]ਹੂਆ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkblue][FONT=Raavi]ਨਾਉ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkblue][FONT=Raavi]ਖੁਦਾਈ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkblue][FONT=Raavi]ਅਲਹੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkblue][FONT=Raavi]ਭਇਆ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkblue][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=darkblue] kal mehi baedh athharaban hooaa naao khudhaaee alahu bhaeiaa || In the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Atharva Veda became prominent; Allah became the Name of God. ~sggs jI P. 470[/COLOR] You say, [COLOR=darkgreen]"Quality of spiritual goodness is learned from those ones who remain undefeated from Maya.[/COLOR] Liberation cannot be obtained from someone defeated by Maya. But you are talking quality of spiritual goodness as if there is no deva, no avatar, no religion of the past had any spiritual goodness. Yet, is that what Gurbani means when it says: [COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਦੀਨਾ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਦੀਨ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਦਇਆਲ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਭਏ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਹੈ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਜਿਉ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਬਿਦਰ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਘਰਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਆਇਆ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue] dheenaa dheen dhaeiaal bheae hai jio kirasan bidhar ghar aaeiaa || God is Merciful to the meekest of the meek; [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue]Krishna[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue] came to the house of Bidar, a devotee of low social status. [/FONT][/COLOR][B][COLOR=black]Krishna was well known in His times as story goes, being so well known, he visits poor friend, it was praised, nothing more than that, your stubborn [/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=black]approach has no even bearing here about what I proved with Guru shabad, very wrongfully and unsuccessfully, you are trying to take support from Gurbani.[/COLOR][/B][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi] ਮਿਲਿਓ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਸੁਦਾਮਾ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਭਾਵਨੀ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਧਾਰਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਸਭੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਕਿਛੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਆਗੈ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਦਾਲਦੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਭੰਜਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਸਮਾਇਆ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]੪॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue] miliou sudhaamaa bhaavanee dhhaar sabh kishh aagai dhaaladh bhanj samaaeiaa ||4|| Sudama loved God, who came to meet him; God sent everything to his home, and ended his poverty. ||4|| ~SGGS Ji p. 1191[/COLOR] [B]Bhain ji, how it could be possible that Krishan be accepted as GOD after reading Shabad of Fifth Nanak in Bhairo Rag, quoted above? Only two things can happen, above quoted Guru Shabad is not acceptable to you or to those who guide you to take different meaning, or Hindu nostalgia takes over the quality of understanding and find [/B][B]Krishna[/B][B] as God in your quote[/B] [COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਜਿਨ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਤੂ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਜਪਿਓ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਤੇਈ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਜਨ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਨੀਕੇ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਹਰਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਜਪਤਿਅਹੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਕਉ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਸੁਖੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਪਾਵੈਗੋ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple] jin thoo japiou thaeee jan neekae har japathiahu ko sukh paavaigo || Those humble beings who meditate on You are noble and exalted. Meditating on the Lord, they are at peace. [/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਬਿਦਰ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਦਾਸੀ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਸੁਤੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਛੋਕ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਛੋਹਰਾ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਅੰਕਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਗਲਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਲਾਵੈਗੋ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]੨॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple] bidhar dhaasee suth shhok shhoharaa kirasan ank gal laavaigo ||2|| Bidur, the son of a slave-girl, was an untouchable, but [/COLOR][COLOR=purple]Krishna[/COLOR][COLOR=purple] hugged him close in His Embrace. ||2|| [/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਜਲ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਤੇ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਓਪਤਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਭਈ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਹੈ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਕਾਸਟ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਕਾਸਟ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਅੰਗਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਤਰਾਵੈਗੋ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple] jal thae oupath bhee hai kaasatt kaasatt ang tharaavaigo || Wood is produced from water, but by holding onto wood, one is saved from drowning. [/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਰਾਮ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਜਨਾ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਹਰਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਆਪਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਸਵਾਰੇ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਅਪਨਾ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਬਿਰਦੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਰਖਾਵੈਗੋ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]੩॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple] raam janaa har aap savaarae apanaa biradh rakhaavaigo ||3|| The Lord Himself embellishes and exalts His humble servants; He confirms His Innate [/COLOR] [COLOR=purple]Nature. ||3|| ~SGGS Ji p. 1309[/COLOR] [B]God acted through Krishna, as all is His play, what makes you to quote this Shabad here? Reference is not given to stick to it but to inspire others from it, means from bad one to go away, from good one to take it positively. Your problem is you cannot over come the reference’s existence in Gurbani and are sticking to them , more over, implying imaginative meanings to them and without being unaware that you are distorting the Guru message[/B]. [COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਕਿਸੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਜਾਤਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਤੇ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਕਿਹ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਪਦਹਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਅਮਰਿਓ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਰਾਮ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਭਗਤਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਬਿਸੇਖ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]੧॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਰਹਾਉ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue] kis jaath thae kih padhehi amariou raam bhagath bisaekh ||1|| rehaao || From such a low social status, what a high status he obtained! Devotional worship to the Lord is sublime! ||1||Pause|| [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਸੁਆਨ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਸਤ੍ਰੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਅਜਾਤੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਸਭ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਤੇ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਲਾਵੈ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਹੇਤੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue] suaan sathra ajaath sabh thae kirasa laavai haeth || The killer of dogs, the lowest of all, was lovingly embraced by [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue]Krishna[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue]. [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=blue] [/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਲੋਗੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਬਪੁਰਾ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਕਿਆ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਸਰਾਹੈ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਤੀਨਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਲੋਕ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]ਪ੍ਰਵੇਸ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Raavi]੨॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue] log bapuraa kiaa saraahai theen lok pravaes ||2|| See how the poor people praise him! His praise extends throughout the three worlds. ||2 ~SGGS Ji p. 1124[/COLOR] To say that God could not manifest in Krishna is same as saying no one in the world, in any past age, in any other religion could have God except for Sikhs. [B]That is only your views only. [U]Manifestation and incarnation are two different terms [/U]and give totally different meaning; keep spinning, meaningless remains meaningless.[/B] And it is not what Gurbani says. Gurbani says the world cannot have liberation without Guruji's Naam. This is true. [B]Thanks for saying that[/B] But you are implying these people don't have God. [B]What were you reading Bhain ji?[/B] That isn't what Gurbani is saying. Gurbani says God manifested through the Hindu devas, and is named Allah, depending on the age. Or are you suggesting the monotheism of the West is true, so Vaheguru is manifest as Allah and the unameable Jewish God YHWH, but not through Hindu devas which Gurbani uses to call for names of God, Ram, Gobind? [B]I can see why you are bent upon mixing up things; you have taken manifestation as incarnation. You have to sort it out why two different terms you are using in the same manner. Now another big slippery path you are trying to walk on by stating that Gurbani calls God with Ram, Gobind. Actually it is said in Gurbani that He has many names, for Guru ji and his followers, only HE is Ram, HE is Krishna, He is Allah, it does not say that Ram, Krishna, Gobind were Gods, for God’s sake, watch what you write in context of Gurbani, as quoted above Guru directly says to us that any one calls birth taking individual God, must his/her tongue be burnt.[/B] With this Islamic logic, do you reject also the God of Christians which is NOT a monotheistic One, but a Trinity including a Divine human incarnation as Jesus? Or, do you accept that a manifestation of the Parabrahm exists in the world, but the most complete manifestation which can liberate even the Hindu devas in age of Kalyug is the Guru? [B]Bhain ji, I am Sikh, I strongly feel all is HIS play, whatever they believe in, also is HIS Will. Who is right who is wrong, I am not supposed to say about them. For Gods sake doesn’t ask such questions. A long post was posted and explained to you that He permeates in His Creation, then why this question. Are you just enjoying posting long posts because you are bringing those things again and again which were answered many times. [/B] Clearly Guru is higher than Krishna. Guru has accomplished more than any Hindu deva, and still people say Guru is only an ordinary human, or a prophet. How can this be? Sikhs are not told anywhere to worship Krishna. It is Sikh dharam to go directly to the source, Parabrahm, Vaheguru. But how can Sikhs deny that Parabrahm was also manifest in Krishna if that is what Gurbani says? That is not to say, as Vaishanvs say, that Krishna is the Parabrahm. We do not say that. But, according to Gurbani, that the Parabrahm manifested through Krishna for the age of Dwapar Yug and Now the Parabrahm is given directly to the Guru's Sikhs in form of the Shabad. I think it is clear Gurbani is also showing respect for Krishna and acknowledging him as an avatar, manifestation of God for the age. [B]Again mixing up manifestation with incarnation concept. Why do you want to discuss with me what other people say about Guru Nanak here?. Please let me remain attached to Guru Granth Sahib ji, rest does not interest me. [/B]If not, can you please explain the following shabad? [COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਮਧੁਸੂਦਨ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਦਾਮੋਦਰ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਸੁਆਮੀ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo] madhhusoodhan dhaamodhar suaamee || He is the Slayer of demons, our Supreme Lord and Master. [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਰਿਖੀਕੇਸ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਗੋਵਰਧਨ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਧਾਰੀ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਮੁਰਲੀ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਮਨੋਹਰ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਹਰਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਰੰਗਾ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]੧॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo] rikheekaes govaradhhan dhhaaree muralee manohar har rangaa ||1|| The Supreme Rishi, the Master of the sensory organs, the uplifter of mountains, the joyful Lord playing His enticing flute. ||1|| [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਮੋਹਨ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਮਾਧਵ[/FONT][/COLOR][B][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨ[/FONT][/COLOR][/B][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਮੁਰਾਰੇ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo] mohan maadhhav [B]kirasa[/B] muraarae || The Enticer of Hearts, the Lord of wealth, [/FONT][/COLOR][B][COLOR=indigo]Krishna[/FONT][/COLOR][/B][COLOR=indigo], the Enemy of ego. [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਜਗਦੀਸੁਰ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਹਰਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਜੀਉ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਅਸੁਰ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਸੰਘਾਰੇ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo] jagadheesur har jeeo asur sanghaarae || The Lord of the Universe, the Dear Lord, the Destroyer of demons. [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਜਗਜੀਵਨ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਠਾਕੁਰ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਘਟ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਘਟ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਵਾਸੀ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਹੈ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਸੰਗਾ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]੨॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo] jagajeevan abinaasee thaakur ghatt ghatt vaasee hai sangaa ||2|| The Life of the World, our eternal and ever-stable Lord and Master dwells within each and every heart, and is always with us. ||2|| [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਧਰਣੀਧਰ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਈਸ[/FONT][/COLOR][B][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਨਰਸਿੰਘ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਨਾਰਾਇਣ[/FONT][/COLOR][/B][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo] [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=indigo]The Support of the Earth, [B]the man-lion[/B],[B] the Supreme Lord God. [/B] [/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਦਾੜਾ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਅਗ੍ਰੇ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਧਰਾਇਣ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo] dhaarraa agrae prithham dhharaaein || The Protector who tears apart demons with His teeth, the Upholder of the earth. [/COLOR][B][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਬਾਵਨ[/FONT][/COLOR][/B][B][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਰੂਪ[/FONT][/COLOR][/B][COLOR=indigo]ੁ [/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਕੀਆ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਤੁਧੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਕਰਤੇ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਸਭ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਹੀ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਸੇਤੀ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਹੈ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਚੰਗਾ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]੩॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo] [B]baavan roop[/B] keeaa thudhh karathae sabh hee saethee hai changaa ||3|| [B]O Creator, You assumed the form of[/B] the pygmy to humble the demons; You are the Lord God of all. ||3|| [/COLOR][B][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਸ੍ਰੀ[/FONT][/COLOR][/B][B][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਰਾਮਚੰਦ[/FONT][/COLOR][/B][B][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਜਿਸੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][/B][B][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਰੂਪੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][/B][B][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਨ[/FONT][/COLOR][/B][B][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਰੇਖਿਆ[/FONT][/COLOR][/B][B][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo] sree raamachandh jis roop n raekhiaa || You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature. [/COLOR][/B][COLOR=indigo] [/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਬਨਵਾਲੀ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਦਰਸਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਅਨੂਪਿਆ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo] banavaalee chakrapaan dharas anoopiaa || Adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in Your hand, Your form is incomparably beautiful. [/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਸਹਸ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਨੇਤ੍ਰ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਮੂਰਤਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਹੈ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਸਹਸਾ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਇਕੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਦਾਤਾ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਸਭ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਹੈ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਮੰਗਾ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]੪॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo] sehas naethr moorath hai sehasaa eik dhaathaa sabh hai mangaa ||4|| You have thousands of eyes, and thousands of forms. You alone are the Giver, and all are beggars of You. ||4|| [/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਭਗਤਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਵਛਲੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਅਨਾਥਹ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਨਾਥੇ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo] bhagath vashhal anaathheh naathhae || You are the Lover of Your devotees, the Master of the masterless. [/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਗੋਪੀ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਨਾਥੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਸਗਲ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਹੈ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਸਾਥੇ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo] gopee naathh sagal hai saathhae || The Lord and Master of the milk-maids, You are the companion of all. [/COLOR] [B][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਨਿਰੰਜਨ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਦਾਤ[/FONT][/COLOR][/B][COLOR=indigo]ੇ [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਬਰਨਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਨ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਸਾਕਉ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਗੁਣ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਅੰਗਾ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]੫॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo] [B]baasudhaev niranjan dhaathae[/B] baran n saako gun angaa ||5|| [B]O Lord, Immacuate Great Giver,[/B] I cannot describe even an iota of Your Glorious Virtues. ||5 [/FONT][/COLOR][B][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਮੁਕੰਦ[/FONT][/COLOR][/B][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਮਨੋਹਰ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਲਖਮੀ[/FONT][/COLOR][B][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਨਾਰਾਇਣ[/FONT][/COLOR][/B][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo] [B]mukandh[/B] manohar lakhamee[B] naaraaein[/B] || [B]Liberator[/B], Enticing Lord, Lord of Lakshmi, [B]Supreme Lord God. [/B] [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਲਜਾ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਨਿਵਾਰਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਉਧਾਰਣ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo] dhropathee lajaa nivaar oudhhaaran || Savior of Dropadi's honor. [/FONT][/COLOR] [B][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਕਮਲਾਕੰਤ[/FONT][/COLOR][/B][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਕਰਹਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਕੰਤੂਹਲ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਅਨਦ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਬਿਨੋਦੀ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਨਿਹਸੰਗਾ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]੬॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo] [B]kamalaakanth[/B] karehi kanthoohal anadh binodhee nihasangaa ||6|| [B]Lord of Maya[/B], miracle-worker, absorbed in delightful play, unattached. ||6|| [/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਅਮੋਘ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਦਰਸਨ[/FONT][/COLOR][B][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਆਜੂਨੀ[/FONT][/COLOR][/B][B][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Raavi]ਸੰਭਉ[/FONT][/COLOR][/B][COLOR=indigo][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=indigo] amogh dharasan[B] aajoonee sanbho[/B] || The Blessed Vision of His Darshan is fruitful and rewarding; [B]He is not born, He is self-existent.[/B] ~SGGS JI p. 1082 [/COLOR][B][COLOR=black]Bhain ji, you need to first understand what Gurbani is all about. It has two main purposes, to dispel allusions from the people as some members of society put in them through references and stories. Taking their own popular stories, Guru ji has given credit to the real DOER, all otherwise were medium, Almighty, in simple words, makes people do all. Attempt is to take people to DIRECT SOURCE- HIM. In the Above Shabad, it is HIM who deserves the Credit. Even Guru ji says about Guru’s exceptional job is HIS blessings,it is HE who has taken Guru to the highest(GGSJi 311) Coming into birth and death is a kind of punishment( aap bhulaye Nanaka pach pach joni pahe M5), any one goes through it, literally experiences that punishment.. Here again, any thing done by Guru is actually done by HIM” Gur Satguru kai mun PARBRAHM hai, PARBRAHM shadaaee”. This was one aspect of Gurbani, giving credit only to HIM. Second one is to give the people right path – [/COLOR][/B][B][COLOR=black]Nam[/COLOR][/B][B][COLOR=black] Simran, treating the rest as mortal and not helpful for the soul. The message is simple, if one wants to detour and wander around; it is also his/her destiny as per His Hukm. In this Shabad, while referring to HIS sargun form and displayed actions, Guru ji in the end makes it clear that HE is that RAM who has no form, who is birth less. If HE is that Ram Chand who has no form, obviously other Ram becomes just HIS sargun sroop as you are and the rest. Nothing is advocated in favor of those about who you have been debating with me by repeating almost same kind of questioning. [/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=indigo] [/COLOR][/B] [LIST] [*]If Krishna is in sargun form so are you is something I already said. [B][I]However[/I][/B], the diference between you and Krishna is that[I][U] he is an avtar[/U][/I]. As an avtar he is recognized as a [I][U]deva[/U][/I], a being higher than an ordinary man, who descends to the lower sansaaric level for the purpose of being a light in the world. [/LIST] [B]What light he gave? to enjoy with ladies or vise versa?, and keep seducing each other by praising one when other ones are not present!, what light you are talking about Bhain Ji?[/B] [LIST] [*] So consider the age when Krishna was appearing, do you think krishna and whole of Bhagavad-Gita are worthless and have no light of God because Krishna was also caught by Maya? [/LIST] [B]As a Sikh, for me, YES. For a Hindu, it is Alright, I respect his faith; he is destined to believe him as per HIS Hukm.[/B] Does this make Krishna of the same level as some pakhandi baba? If a quality of an avtar is descent from God, and the ability to be in [I][U]state of God-consciousness[/U][/I], than in that frame an avtar is [I][U]NOT in Maya[/U][/I], and not speaking from personality of incarnation, but of the God Himself. [B]Have you studied any promiscuous story about Jesus? You compare a saintly holy man with a promiscuous man that says it all about your love for [/B][B]Krishna[/B][B]. Who wrote Gita? [/B][B]Krishna[/B][B]? Any man who has out of control sex drive cannot be raised to be high level. Some get propaganda but some better ones don’t. Who knows Bhagat Puran Singh? In [/B][B]India[/B][B] people know more Ramdev Yogi than Bhagat ji. “( Navan khanda vich janie, …..., so I don’t care if one is known in the world, I respect and bow to Bhagat Puran Singh ji) Do You know that Gandhi has been portrayed as a spiritual man but in reality he was not more than a politician( Read a book by his own grand son and a book by GB SINGH), even those who portray him as a spiritual man do not follow his non violence policy, it is all politics. It is a world inflicted with Maya, who is high who is low only HE knows. Krishna was merely a sargun Sroop as other human beings( KETE ), not a incarnation of PRABH JI. OSHO spoke against Hinduism and Jesus’s being without father (In my view it is stooping low just to find something to say bad) but praised [/B][B]Krishna[/B][B] because he fitted in Osho’s style. May be it is too much, why should I lie?[/B] Gurbani says the Parabrahm manifested in the physical reality. The very process of manifesting in the 3 gunas and duality gives rise to Maya. The power of the Parabrahm is diffused when it enters into materiality. So Gurbani isn't saying the avataras were fake or did not have manifestation of Parabrahm for the age. Gurbani is saying the God's power comes under influence of Maya, because Maya is an element of the physical dimension, which is what Parabrahm Nirankaar has Himself created! He created reality this way! God is not trying to alter the creation, it serves a purpose. The Maya and the gunas are a property of deliberate design! Only the Shabad is free of Maya in the sansaara. And this is something new from any previous age and required because the 4 legs of religion were lost in Kalyug. [B]What you are discussing here Bhain ji? Once His two forms are discussed why to repeat?[/B] Avtar is still meaning avtar. [B] Please STICK TO IT, WAHEGURU ANG SANG.[/B] Not just incarnated and born, but, incarnation of the Jyot of God coming into sansaara from very high level of reality. Gurbani clearly recognizes Krishan as a deva. So an avtar is not like a prophet who is fully human, but God gives a message to that prophet and he testifies the message God gives him. In this we see Guruji is an avtar, not a prophet, or [/FONT] Gurbani would be saying Guru is a prophet not an avtar. As a prophet, Guruji would be fully human and ignorant. But God would give him a message which he should testify to the world. This is not what Gurbani says. It says Guru is merged in the Jyot and has God-consciousness. Guru Himself, in that state of merging does not speak as an ordinary human. The thing is we are also seeing Gurbani say Krishna is an avtar. Since he preceded Guruji, he is less than Guruji in the sense that Guru is a more complete manifestation of the Jyot of Vaheguru which was necessary for age of Kaliyug. Is there some other way you can explain this pauri? [B]WHAT A GREAT CONFUSION TO ENJOY. WONDERFUL JOB, PICTURE WITH NOTHINGNESS. Regarding the pauri( actually Saveeai), some one taught you wrong, I strongly feel, I must comment on it if you are determined to use it in favor of incarnation.[/B] [COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਸਤਜੁਗਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਤੈ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਮਾਣਿਓ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਛਲਿਓ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਬਲਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਬਾਵਨ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਭਾਇਓ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple] sathajug thai maaniou shhaliou bal baavan bhaaeiou || In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf. [/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਤੈ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਮਾਣਿਓ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਰਾਮੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਕਹਾਇਓ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple] thraethai thai maaniou raam raghuvans kehaaeiou || In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty. [/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਮੁਰਾਰਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਕੰਸੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਕੀਓ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple] dhuaapur kirasan muraar kans kirathaarathh keeou || In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans. [/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਕਉ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਰਾਜੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਅਭੈ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਭਗਤਹ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਜਨ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਦੀਓ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple] ougrasain ko raaj abhai bhagatheh jan dheeou || You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness. [/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਨਾਨਕ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਗੁਰੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਅੰਗਦੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਅਮਰੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਕਹਾਇਓ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple] kalijug pramaan naanak gur angadh amar kehaaeiou || In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das. [/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਸ੍ਰੀ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਗੁਰੂ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਰਾਜੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਅਬਿਚਲੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਅਟਲੁ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਆਦਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਪੁਰਖਿ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]ਫੁਰਮਾਇਓ[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Mangal]॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple][FONT=Raavi]੭॥[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=purple] sree guroo raaj abichal attal aadh purakh furamaaeiou ||7|| The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent, according the Command of the Primal Lord God. ||7|| ~SGGS Ji p. 1390[/COLOR] [B][COLOR=black]All these Sawaeea are written by Bhat Nallh in praise of Satguru Nanak. In respect he is attributing all prevailed known acts and previously known ones to Guru ji. All such praises means to admit supremacy of Guru Nanak over all of them, nothing more than that. [U]Remember those Bhagatas are also singing who historically came on this earth before Guru Nanak, that states all about Guru Nanak’s supremacy[/U]. Even for me, Guru Nanak is my world. I was in deep quagmire and Guru ji guidance has taken me out of it to walk on right path. I am not comparing myself with any one( it is just a humble admission); I am just justifying the point of praising Guru ji.[/COLOR][/B] Veerji, as I pointed out the very process of descending into the sansaara gives rise to Maya. And for this reason, in this age, all avataars and devas are insufficient. So the Parabrahm Himself descended as the Shabad. [B]USE ANY WORD DESCEND OR OTHER ONE BUT HE DOES NOT TAKE BIRTH (AJOONI) IN HIS INFINITY. HIS SARGUN FORM IS EVERY WHERE[U]. THE INCARNATION POINT OF VIEW REDUCES HIS INFINITY TO SINGLE ENTITY OF A HUMAN BODY. [/U]THAT I CANNOT APPRECIATE AND ACCEPT IT. GURU [/FONT][/B][U][COLOR=red]JI Supports[/FONT][/COLOR][/U][B] ME ON THIS IDEA. [/FONT][/B] There are many levels to God-consciousness as there are levels of reality or dimensions. Beyond even the dimensions is the infinity of nothingness which is described as nirguna. Only Guruji has perceived them all. Only Guru has gone to the infinite depth of the nirgun. But the discussion is not whether [/FONT]Krishna[/FONT] speaking from God-consciousness for Dwapara Yug takes something away from Guruji or threatens the Sikh identity. Clearly the Sikh identity is in Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Whatever is expressed there is from Guru. So it is Sikh. There are many schools of thought in Hinduism. And all of them contrast in some way with Sikh teaching. Krishan isn't important to a Sikh. We don't meditate on Hindu devas or scriptures. But the discussion was expressed that a Sikh can't tolerate [/FONT]Krishna[/FONT]'s declaration of being the God. I don't see this disqualification of Hindu religion in Gurbani. It fulfilled a certain role for a certain age and was a manifestation of the God. I don't see where a Sikh can't tolerate anything. We have Gurbani. Nothing is a threat to us. [/FONT]Krishna[/FONT] is not for us the Primal Absolute. But equally, Krishan appears to be recognized as an avtar in Gurbani with God-consciousness so that Narayan was speaking [/FONT] through him. If this interpretation is incorrect, and not to mention the many places in Dasam Granth which relates story of Krishanavtaar including where his mother perceived him to be God incarnate? If this is so unaaceptable, why didn't Guruji modify Dasam Granth bani to reflect that Krishan was not a manifestation of God, only thinking he was mistakenly? Even Bhai Gurdas Ji says this: [B]Here you are walking on a very gray area, there will be battle of words which I avoid due to my commitment to do some thing more productive than getting into circle of debate where you get nothing of merit but accusations from some Sikhs (regardless the amrit ceremony people took ). Not a single historical and Scientific fact were ever given by them in favor of what they think is rightI but very low kind of personal spitting takes place where even simple question is asked. So please let me stay out of it. If I cannot convince you with Gurbani( I do not consider All Dasm Granth as Gurbani, hate me, love me, or call me misguided, lost, not a Sikh, it doesn’t matter to me, for me only judge is HIM[/B]), [B]I would rather be quiet.[/B] Quote: [I][COLOR=darkred]I strongly say, regardless of their references, even as Sargun form of HIM, they are not helpful as most of His other sargun form is not. This idea to make any kind of link to our Guru ji or Gurbachan is silly and uncalled for.[/COLOR][/I] Gurbani makes the link. The point of this discussion was not how Sikhs should idolize Krishna, but to answer objections that Hindu belief is intolerable for a Sikh. [B]Gurbani refers to them as HIS Sargun Sroop but credit gives to HIM only, therefore, your saying that Gurbani makes link to them is your illusion, for me picture is clear, no link but a reference. I made it clear that for Sikhs [U]they are of no importance to guide except Guru and I would keep sayig till last breath because that is what Guru asks me to believe in.[/U][/B] We worship the Supreme Vaheguru. And Gurbani acknowledges that this Supreme uncreated aspect is manifest in creation and in incarnations such as Krishanavataar. Both the nirgun and sargun are the One god. Otherwise it would be a pantheism of many gods. But Gurbani says everything derives from the Absolute uncreated Nirankaar. [B] First you call HIM [U]NIRANKAR,[/U] and then declare about HIS incarnation[U],[/U] obviously you are contradicting yourself. Please keep the identity of the words (manifestation and incarnation) different as per Guru Bachan 1.” AJOONI(Jap Ji), “Nanak Nirbhau Nirankar, hor kete Ram rawal=Asa Dee Vaar”, “Dharnidhar aap ajoni tol bol Sach poora= Onkaar M-1)[/B] [B]2. Manifestation is Sargun Sroop(sarb jot teri passr rahi, jah jah teh NARHARI = Ram Kli M1” , “Jah jah dekha tah PIR hai bhaee…Sohi M-5”[/B] [B][U]So beauty of stars at night can only be enjoyed if sky is clear!![/U][/B] [COLOR=indigo] [/FONT][/COLOR] [/QUOTE]
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