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Guru Granth Sahib
Composition, Arrangement & Layout
ਜਪੁ | Jup
ਸੋ ਦਰੁ | So Dar
ਸੋਹਿਲਾ | Sohilaa
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ | Raag Siree-Raag
Gurbani (14-53)
Ashtpadiyan (53-71)
Gurbani (71-74)
Pahre (74-78)
Chhant (78-81)
Vanjara (81-82)
Vaar Siri Raag (83-91)
Bhagat Bani (91-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਝ | Raag Maajh
Gurbani (94-109)
Ashtpadi (109)
Ashtpadiyan (110-129)
Ashtpadi (129-130)
Ashtpadiyan (130-133)
Bara Maha (133-136)
Din Raen (136-137)
Vaar Maajh Ki (137-150)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗਉੜੀ | Raag Gauree
Gurbani (151-185)
Quartets/Couplets (185-220)
Ashtpadiyan (220-234)
Karhalei (234-235)
Ashtpadiyan (235-242)
Chhant (242-249)
Baavan Akhari (250-262)
Sukhmani (262-296)
Thittee (296-300)
Gauree kii Vaar (300-323)
Gurbani (323-330)
Ashtpadiyan (330-340)
Baavan Akhari (340-343)
Thintteen (343-344)
Vaar Kabir (344-345)
Bhagat Bani (345-346)
ਰਾਗੁ ਆਸਾ | Raag Aasaa
Gurbani (347-348)
Chaupaday (348-364)
Panchpadde (364-365)
Kaafee (365-409)
Aasaavaree (409-411)
Ashtpadiyan (411-432)
Patee (432-435)
Chhant (435-462)
Vaar Aasaa (462-475)
Bhagat Bani (475-488)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੂਜਰੀ | Raag Goojaree
Gurbani (489-503)
Ashtpadiyan (503-508)
Vaar Gujari (508-517)
Vaar Gujari (517-526)
ਰਾਗੁ ਦੇਵਗੰਧਾਰੀ | Raag Dayv-Gandhaaree
Gurbani (527-536)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਹਾਗੜਾ | Raag Bihaagraa
Gurbani (537-556)
Chhant (538-548)
Vaar Bihaagraa (548-556)
ਰਾਗੁ ਵਡਹੰਸ | Raag Wadhans
Gurbani (557-564)
Ashtpadiyan (564-565)
Chhant (565-575)
Ghoriaan (575-578)
Alaahaniiaa (578-582)
Vaar Wadhans (582-594)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੋਰਠਿ | Raag Sorath
Gurbani (595-634)
Asatpadhiya (634-642)
Vaar Sorath (642-659)
ਰਾਗੁ ਧਨਾਸਰੀ | Raag Dhanasaree
Gurbani (660-685)
Astpadhiya (685-687)
Chhant (687-691)
Bhagat Bani (691-695)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਤਸਰੀ | Raag Jaitsree
Gurbani (696-703)
Chhant (703-705)
Vaar Jaitsaree (705-710)
Bhagat Bani (710)
ਰਾਗੁ ਟੋਡੀ | Raag Todee
ਰਾਗੁ ਬੈਰਾੜੀ | Raag Bairaaree
ਰਾਗੁ ਤਿਲੰਗ | Raag Tilang
Gurbani (721-727)
Bhagat Bani (727)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸੂਹੀ | Raag Suhi
Gurbani (728-750)
Ashtpadiyan (750-761)
Kaafee (761-762)
Suchajee (762)
Gunvantee (763)
Chhant (763-785)
Vaar Soohee (785-792)
Bhagat Bani (792-794)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ | Raag Bilaaval
Gurbani (795-831)
Ashtpadiyan (831-838)
Thitteen (838-840)
Vaar Sat (841-843)
Chhant (843-848)
Vaar Bilaaval (849-855)
Bhagat Bani (855-858)
ਰਾਗੁ ਗੋਂਡ | Raag Gond
Gurbani (859-869)
Ashtpadiyan (869)
Bhagat Bani (870-875)
ਰਾਗੁ ਰਾਮਕਲੀ | Raag Ramkalee
Ashtpadiyan (902-916)
Gurbani (876-902)
Anand (917-922)
Sadd (923-924)
Chhant (924-929)
Dakhnee (929-938)
Sidh Gosat (938-946)
Vaar Ramkalee (947-968)
ਰਾਗੁ ਨਟ ਨਾਰਾਇਨ | Raag Nat Narayan
Gurbani (975-980)
Ashtpadiyan (980-983)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਲੀ ਗਉੜਾ | Raag Maalee Gauraa
Gurbani (984-988)
Bhagat Bani (988)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਰੂ | Raag Maaroo
Gurbani (889-1008)
Ashtpadiyan (1008-1014)
Kaafee (1014-1016)
Ashtpadiyan (1016-1019)
Anjulian (1019-1020)
Solhe (1020-1033)
Dakhni (1033-1043)
ਰਾਗੁ ਤੁਖਾਰੀ | Raag Tukhaari
Bara Maha (1107-1110)
Chhant (1110-1117)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕੇਦਾਰਾ | Raag Kedara
Gurbani (1118-1123)
Bhagat Bani (1123-1124)
ਰਾਗੁ ਭੈਰਉ | Raag Bhairo
Gurbani (1125-1152)
Partaal (1153)
Ashtpadiyan (1153-1167)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਸੰਤੁ | Raag Basant
Gurbani (1168-1187)
Ashtpadiyan (1187-1193)
Vaar Basant (1193-1196)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਾਰਗ | Raag Saarag
Gurbani (1197-1200)
Partaal (1200-1231)
Ashtpadiyan (1232-1236)
Chhant (1236-1237)
Vaar Saarang (1237-1253)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਲਾਰ | Raag Malaar
Gurbani (1254-1293)
Partaal (1265-1273)
Ashtpadiyan (1273-1278)
Chhant (1278)
Vaar Malaar (1278-91)
Bhagat Bani (1292-93)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਾਨੜਾ | Raag Kaanraa
Gurbani (1294-96)
Partaal (1296-1318)
Ashtpadiyan (1308-1312)
Chhant (1312)
Vaar Kaanraa
Bhagat Bani (1318)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕਲਿਆਨ | Raag Kalyaan
Gurbani (1319-23)
Ashtpadiyan (1323-26)
ਰਾਗੁ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ | Raag Prabhaatee
Gurbani (1327-1341)
Ashtpadiyan (1342-51)
ਰਾਗੁ ਜੈਜਾਵੰਤੀ | Raag Jaijaiwanti
Gurbani (1352-53)
Salok | Gatha | Phunahe | Chaubole | Swayiye
Sehskritee Mahala 1
Sehskritee Mahala 5
Gaathaa Mahala 5
Phunhay Mahala 5
Chaubolae Mahala 5
Shaloks Bhagat Kabir
Shaloks Sheikh Farid
Swaiyyae Mahala 5
Swaiyyae in Praise of Gurus
Shaloks in Addition To Vaars
Shalok Ninth Mehl
Mundavanee Mehl 5
ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ, Raag Maalaa
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<blockquote data-quote="Harjas Kaur Khalsa" data-source="post: 79109" data-attributes="member: 2125"><p>God can be betrayed? Even the word God we are speaking now cannot touch the reality. Is some little mataji who prays sincerely to Krishan betraying the reality of God?</p><p></p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy">ਚੋਜੀ ਮੇਰੇ ਗੋਵਿੰਦਾ ਚੋਜੀ ਮੇਰੇ ਪਿਆਰਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਚੋਜੀ ਜੀਉ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy">chojee maerae govindhaa chojee maerae piaariaa har prabh maeraa chojee jeeo ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy">Playful is my Lord of the Universe; playful is my Beloved. My Lord God is wondrous and playful. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy">ਹਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੁ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਮੇਰੇ ਗੋਵਿਦਾ ਹਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਗੋਪੀ ਖੋਜੀ ਜੀਉ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy">har aapae kaanha oupaaeidhaa maerae govidhaa har aapae gopee khojee jeeo ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy">The Lord Himself created Krishna, O my Lord of the Universe; the Lord Himself is the milkmaids who seek Him.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy">~SGGS Ji p. 174</span></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It is true, Gurbani says:</p><p></p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkBlue">ਜੁਜ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਰਿ ਛਲੀ ਚੰਦ੍ਰਾਵਲਿ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੁ ਜਾਦਮੁ ਭਇਆ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkBlue">juj mehi jor shhalee chandhraaval kaanh kirasan jaadham bhaeiaa ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkBlue">In the Jujar Veda, Kaan Krishna of the Yaadva tribe seduced Chandraavali by force. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkBlue"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkBlue">ਪਾਰਜਾਤੁ ਗੋਪੀ ਲੈ ਆਇਆ ਬਿੰਦ੍ਰਾਬਨ ਮਹਿ ਰੰਗੁ ਕੀਆ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkBlue">paarajaath gopee lai aaeiaa bindhraaban mehi rang keeaa ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkBlue">He brought the Elysian Tree for his milk-maid, and revelled in Brindaaban. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkBlue"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkBlue">ਕਲਿ ਮਹਿ ਬੇਦੁ ਅਥਰਬਣੁ ਹੂਆ ਨਾਉ ਖੁਦਾਈ ਅਲਹੁ ਭਇਆ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkBlue">kal mehi baedh athharaban hooaa naao khudhaaee alahu bhaeiaa ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkBlue">In the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Atharva Veda became prominent; Allah became the Name of God.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: DarkBlue">~sggs jI P. 470</span></p><p></p><p></p><p>You say, <span style="color: DarkGreen">"Quality of spiritual goodness is learned from those ones who remain undefeated from Maya.</span> Liberation cannot be obtained from someone defeated by Maya. But you are talking quality of spiritual goodness as if there is no deva, no avatar, no religion of the past had any spiritual goodness. Yet, is that what Gurbani means when it says:</p><p></p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">ਦੀਨਾ ਦੀਨ ਦਇਆਲ ਭਏ ਹੈ ਜਿਉ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੁ ਬਿਦਰ ਘਰਿ ਆਇਆ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">dheenaa dheen dhaeiaal bheae hai jio kirasan bidhar ghar aaeiaa ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">God is Merciful to the meekest of the meek; Krishna came to the house of Bidar, a devotee of low social status. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">ਮਿਲਿਓ ਸੁਦਾਮਾ ਭਾਵਨੀ ਧਾਰਿ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਆਗੈ ਦਾਲਦੁ ਭੰਜਿ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥੪॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">miliou sudhaamaa bhaavanee dhhaar sabh kishh aagai dhaaladh bhanj samaaeiaa ||4||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">Sudama loved God, who came to meet him; God sent everything to his home, and ended his poverty. ||4||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">~SGGS Ji p. 1191</span></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">ਜਿਨ ਤੂ ਜਪਿਓ ਤੇਈ ਜਨ ਨੀਕੇ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਤਿਅਹੁ ਕਉ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਵੈਗੋ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">jin thoo japiou thaeee jan neekae har japathiahu ko sukh paavaigo ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">Those humble beings who meditate on You are noble and exalted. Meditating on the Lord, they are at peace. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">ਬਿਦਰ ਦਾਸੀ ਸੁਤੁ ਛੋਕ ਛੋਹਰਾ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੁ ਅੰਕਿ ਗਲਿ ਲਾਵੈਗੋ ॥੨॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">bidhar dhaasee suth shhok shhoharaa kirasan ank gal laavaigo ||2||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">Bidur, the son of a slave-girl, was an untouchable, but Krishna hugged him close in His Embrace. ||2|| </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">ਜਲ ਤੇ ਓਪਤਿ ਭਈ ਹੈ ਕਾਸਟ ਕਾਸਟ ਅੰਗਿ ਤਰਾਵੈਗੋ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">jal thae oupath bhee hai kaasatt kaasatt ang tharaavaigo ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">Wood is produced from water, but by holding onto wood, one is saved from drowning.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">ਰਾਮ ਜਨਾ ਹਰਿ ਆਪਿ ਸਵਾਰੇ ਅਪਨਾ ਬਿਰਦੁ ਰਖਾਵੈਗੋ ॥੩॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">raam janaa har aap savaarae apanaa biradh rakhaavaigo ||3||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">The Lord Himself embellishes and exalts His humble servants; He confirms His Innate Nature. ||3||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">~SGGS Ji p. 1309</span></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">ਕਿਸੁ ਜਾਤਿ ਤੇ ਕਿਹ ਪਦਹਿ ਅਮਰਿਓ ਰਾਮ ਭਗਤਿ ਬਿਸੇਖ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">kis jaath thae kih padhehi amariou raam bhagath bisaekh ||1|| rehaao ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">From such a low social status, what a high status he obtained! Devotional worship to the Lord is sublime! ||1||Pause|| </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">ਸੁਆਨ ਸਤ੍ਰੁ ਅਜਾਤੁ ਸਭ ਤੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨ ਲਾਵੈ ਹੇਤੁ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">suaan sathra ajaath sabh thae kirasa laavai haeth ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">The killer of dogs, the lowest of all, was lovingly embraced by Krishna. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">ਲੋਗੁ ਬਪੁਰਾ ਕਿਆ ਸਰਾਹੈ ਤੀਨਿ ਲੋਕ ਪ੍ਰਵੇਸ ॥੨॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">log bapuraa kiaa saraahai theen lok pravaes ||2||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">See how the poor people praise him! His praise extends throughout the three worlds. ||2</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">~SGGS Ji p. 1124</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p><p></p><p></p><p>To say that God could not manifest in Krishna is same as saying no one in the world, in any past age, in any other religion could have God except for Sikhs. This is talking like Muslims. And it is not what Gurbani says. Gurbani says the world cannot have liberation without Guruji's Naam. This is true. But you are implying these people don't have God. That isn't what Gurbani is saying. Gurbani says God manifested through the Hindu devas, and is named Allah, depending on the age. Or are you suggesting the monotheism of the West is true, so Vaheguru is manifest as Allah and the unameable Jewish God YHWH, but not through Hindu devas which Gurbani uses to call for names of God, Ram, Gobind? With this Islamic logic, do you reject also the God of Christians which is NOT a monotheistic One, but a Trinity including a Divine human incarnation as Jesus? Or, do you accept that a manifestation of the Parabrahm exists in the world, but the most complete manifestation which can liberate even the Hindu devas in age of Kalyug is the Guru?</p><p></p><p>Clearly Guru is higher than Krishna. Guru has accomplished more than any Hindu deva, and still people say Guru is only an ordinary human, or a prophet. How can this be? Sikhs are not told anywhere to worship Krishna. It is Sikh dharam to go directly to the source, Parabrahm, Vaheguru. But how can Sikhs deny that Parabrahm was also manifest in Krishna if that is what Gurbani says? That is not to say, as Vaishanvs say, that Krishna is the Parabrahm. We do not say that. But, according to Gurbani, that the Parabrahm manifested through Krishna for the age of Dwapar Yug and Now the Parabrahm is given directly to the Guru's Sikhs in form of the Shabad. I think it is clear Gurbani is also showing respect for Krishna and acknowledging him as an avatar, manifestation of God for the age.</p><p></p><p>If not, can you please explain the following shabad?</p><p></p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">ਮਧੁਸੂਦਨ ਦਾਮੋਦਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">madhhusoodhan dhaamodhar suaamee ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">He is the Slayer of demons, our Supreme Lord and Master. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">ਰਿਖੀਕੇਸ ਗੋਵਰਧਨ ਧਾਰੀ ਮੁਰਲੀ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਾ ॥੧॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">rikheekaes govaradhhan dhhaaree muralee manohar har rangaa ||1||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">The Supreme Rishi, the Master of the sensory organs, the uplifter of mountains, the joyful Lord playing His enticing flute. ||1||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">ਮੋਹਨ ਮਾਧਵ <strong>ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨ</strong> ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">mohan maadhhav <strong>kirasa</strong> muraarae ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">The Enticer of Hearts, the Lord of wealth, <strong>Krishna</strong>, the Enemy of ego. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">ਜਗਦੀਸੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਅਸੁਰ ਸੰਘਾਰੇ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">jagadheesur har jeeo asur sanghaarae ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">The Lord of the Universe, the Dear Lord, the Destroyer of demons. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">ਜਗਜੀਵਨ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਘਟ ਘਟ ਵਾਸੀ ਹੈ ਸੰਗਾ ॥੨॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">jagajeevan abinaasee thaakur ghatt ghatt vaasee hai sangaa ||2||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">The Life of the World, our eternal and ever-stable Lord and Master dwells within each and every heart, and is always with us. ||2|| </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">ਧਰਣੀਧਰ ਈਸ<strong> ਨਰਸਿੰਘ</strong><strong> ਨਾਰਾਇਣ</strong> ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">dhharaneedhhar ees<strong> narasingh</strong><strong> naaraaein</strong> ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">The Support of the Earth, <strong>the man-lion</strong>,<strong> the Supreme Lord God. </strong></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"><strong></strong></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">ਦਾੜਾ ਅਗ੍ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਿ ਧਰਾਇਣ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">dhaarraa agrae prithham dhharaaein ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">The Protector who tears apart demons with His teeth, the Upholder of the earth. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"><strong>ਬਾਵਨ ਰੂਪ</strong>ੁ ਕੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸੇਤੀ ਹੈ ਚੰਗਾ ॥੩॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"><strong>baavan roop</strong> keeaa thudhh karathae sabh hee saethee hai changaa ||3||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"><strong>O Creator, You assumed the form of</strong> the pygmy to humble the demons; You are the Lord God of all. ||3|| </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"><strong>ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥ </strong></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"><strong>sree raamachandh jis roop n raekhiaa ||</strong></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"><strong>You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature. </strong></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ ਦਰਸਿ ਅਨੂਪਿਆ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">banavaalee chakrapaan dharas anoopiaa ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">Adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in Your hand, Your form is incomparably beautiful. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">ਸਹਸ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਹੈ ਸਹਸਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸਭ ਹੈ ਮੰਗਾ ॥੪॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">sehas naethr moorath hai sehasaa eik dhaathaa sabh hai mangaa ||4||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">You have thousands of eyes, and thousands of forms. You alone are the Giver, and all are beggars of You. ||4|| </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲੁ ਅਨਾਥਹ ਨਾਥੇ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">bhagath vashhal anaathheh naathhae ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">You are the Lover of Your devotees, the Master of the masterless. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">ਗੋਪੀ ਨਾਥੁ ਸਗਲ ਹੈ ਸਾਥੇ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">gopee naathh sagal hai saathhae ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">The Lord and Master of the milk-maids, You are the companion of all. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"><strong>ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦਾਤ</strong>ੇ ਬਰਨਿ ਨ ਸਾਕਉ ਗੁਣ ਅੰਗਾ ॥੫॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"><strong>baasudhaev niranjan dhaathae</strong> baran n saako gun angaa ||5||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"><strong>O Lord, Immacuate Great Giver,</strong> I cannot describe even an iota of Your Glorious Virtues. ||5 </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"><strong>ਮੁਕੰਦ</strong> ਮਨੋਹਰ ਲਖਮੀ <strong>ਨਾਰਾਇਣ</strong> ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"><strong>mukandh</strong> manohar lakhamee<strong> naaraaein</strong> ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"><strong>Liberator</strong>, Enticing Lord, Lord of Lakshmi, <strong>Supreme Lord God. </strong></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਲਜਾ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਉਧਾਰਣ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">dhropathee lajaa nivaar oudhhaaran ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">Savior of Dropadi's honor. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"><strong>ਕਮਲਾਕੰਤ</strong> ਕਰਹਿ ਕੰਤੂਹਲ ਅਨਦ ਬਿਨੋਦੀ ਨਿਹਸੰਗਾ ॥੬॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"><strong>kamalaakanth</strong> karehi kanthoohal anadh binodhee nihasangaa ||6||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"><strong>Lord of Maya</strong>, miracle-worker, absorbed in delightful play, unattached. ||6|| </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">ਅਮੋਘ ਦਰਸਨ <strong>ਆਜੂਨੀ ਸੰਭਉ</strong> ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">amogh dharasan<strong> aajoonee sanbho</strong> ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">The Blessed Vision of His Darshan is fruitful and rewarding; <strong>He is not born, He is self-existent.</strong></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo">~SGGS JI p. 1082</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Indigo"></span></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>1. If Krishna is in sargun form so are you is something I already said. <em><strong> However</strong></em>, the diference between you and Krishna is that<em><u> he is an avtar</u></em>. As an avtar he is recognized as a <u><em>deva</em></u>, a being higher than an ordinary man, who descends to the lower sansaaric level for the purpose of being a light in the world. So consider the age when Krishna was appearing, do you think krishna and whole of Bhagavad-Gita are worthless and have no light of God because Krishna was also caught by Maya? Does this make Krishna of the same level as some pakhandi baba? If a quality of an avtar is descent from God, and the ability to be in <u><em>state of God-consciousness</em></u>, than in that frame an avtar is <u><em>NOT in Maya</em></u>, and not speaking from personality of incarnation, but of the God Himself. </p><p></p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">ਤੀਨਿ ਤਿਲੋਕ ਸਮਾਧਿ ਪਲੋਵੈ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">theen thilok samaadhh palovai ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">The three qualities and the three worlds vanish, in the state of Samaadhi.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">~SGGS Ji p. 974</span></p><p></p><p></p><p>Gurbani says the Parabrahm manifested in the physical reality. The very process of manifesting in the 3 gunas and duality gives rise to Maya. The power of the Parabrahm is diffused when it enters into materiality. So Gurbani isn't saying the avataras were fake or did not have manifestation of Parabrahm for the age. Gurbani is saying the God's power comes under influence of Maya, because Maya is an element of the physical dimension, which is what Parabrahm Nirankaar has Himself created! He created reality this way! God is not trying to alter the creation, it serves a purpose. The Maya and the gunas are a property of deliberate design! Only the Shabad is free of Maya in the sansaara. And this is something new from any previous age and required because the 4 legs of religion were lost in Kalyug.</p><p></p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">ਆਪੇ ਕਾਰਣੁ ਕੀਆ ਅਪਰੰਪਰਿ ਸਭੁ ਤੇਰੋ ਕੀਆ ਕਮਾਇਦਾ ॥੧੦॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">aapae kaaran keeaa aparanpar sabh thaero keeaa kamaaeidhaa ||10||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">The Infinite Lord Himself created the creation. Everyone acts as You make them act, Lord. ||10</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">ਰਜ ਤਮ ਸਤ ਕਲ ਤੇਰੀ ਛਾਇਆ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">raj tham sath kal thaeree shhaaeiaa ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">Your Power is diffused through the three gunas: raajas, taamas and satva.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">~SGGS Ji p. 1038</span></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">ਸਰਗੁਨ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਸੁੰਨ ਸਮਾਧੀ ਆਪਿ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">saragun niragun nirankaar sunn samaadhhee aap ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">He possesses all qualities; He transcends all qualities; He is the Formless Lord. He Himself is in Primal Samaadhi. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">ਆਪਨ ਕੀਆ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਫਿਰਿ ਜਾਪਿ ॥੧॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">aapan keeaa naanakaa aapae hee fir jaap ||1||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">Through His Creation, O Nanak, He meditates on Himself. ||1||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">~SGGS Ji p. 290</span></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Avtar is still meaning avtar. Not just incarnated and born, but, incarnation of the Jyot of God coming into sansaara from very high level of reality. Gurbani clearly recognizes Krishan as a deva. So an avtar is not like a prophet who is fully human, but God gives a message to that prophet and he testifies the message God gives him. In this we see Guruji is an avtar, not a prophet, or Gurbani would be saying Guru is a prophet not an avtar. As a prophet, Guruji would be fully human and ignorant. But God would give him a message which he should testify to the world. This is not what Gurbani says. It says Guru is merged in the Jyot and has God-consciousness. Guru Himself, in that state of merging does not speak as an ordinary human.</p><p></p><p>The thing is we are also seeing Gurbani say Krishna is an avtar. Since he preceded Guruji, he is less than Guruji in the sense that Guru is a more complete manifestation of the Jyot of Vaheguru which was necessary for age of Kaliyug. Is there some other way you can explain this pauri?</p><p></p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਛਲਿਓ ਬਲਿ ਬਾਵਨ ਭਾਇਓ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">sathajug thai maaniou shhaliou bal baavan bhaaeiou ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">thraethai thai maaniou raam raghuvans kehaaeiou ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ਕੰਸੁ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ ਕੀਓ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">dhuaapur kirasan muraar kans kirathaarathh keeou ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ ਕਉ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਭੈ ਭਗਤਹ ਜਨ ਦੀਓ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">ougrasain ko raaj abhai bhagatheh jan dheeou ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">kalijug pramaan naanak gur angadh amar kehaaeiou ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਬਿਚਲੁ ਅਟਲੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਓ ॥੭॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">sree guroo raaj abichal attal aadh purakh furamaaeiou ||7||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent, according the Command of the Primal Lord God. ||7||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Purple">~SGGS Ji p. 1390</span></p><p></p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">ਕਲਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਧੂ ਅੰਧਾਰੁ ਸਾ ਚੜਿਆ ਰੈ ਭਾਣੁ ॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">kal vich dhhoo andhhaar saa charriaa rai bhaan ||</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, there was only pitch darkness. Then, He rose like the sun to illuminate the darkness.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Blue">~SGGS Ji p. 968</span></p><p></p><p></p><p> So on one level, it is true Krishan is not equal to Guru because Gurbani says all these devas fall at Guru's feet. However, as you pointed out, </p><p></p><p></p><p>Veerji, as I pointed out the very process of descending into the sansaara gives rise to Maya. And for this reason, in this age, all avataars and devas are insufficient. So the Parabrahm Himself descended as the Shabad.</p><p></p><p>There are many levels to God-consciousness as there are levels of reality or dimensions. Beyond even the dimensions is the infinity of nothingness which is described as nirguna. Only Guruji has perceived them all. Only Guru has gone to the infinite depth of the nirgun. But the discussion is not whether Krishna speaking from God-consciousness for Dwapara Yug takes something away from Guruji or threatens the Sikh identity. Clearly the Sikh identity is in Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Whatever is expressed there is from Guru. So it is Sikh. There are many schools of thought in Hinduism. And all of them contrast in some way with Sikh teaching. Krishan isn't important to a Sikh. We don't meditate on Hindu devas or scriptures. But the discussion was expressed that a Sikh can't tolerate Krishna's declaration of being the God. I don't see this disqualification of Hindu religion in Gurbani. It fulfilled a certain role for a certain age and was a manifestation of the God. I don't see where a Sikh can't tolerate anything. We have Gurbani. Nothing is a threat to us. Krishna is not for us the Primal Absolute. But equally, Krishan appears to be recognized as an avtar in Gurbani with God-consciousness so that Narayan was speaking through him. If this interpretation is incorrect, and not to mention the many places in Dasam Granth which relates story of Krishanavtaar including where his mother perceived him to be God incarnate? If this is so unaaceptable, why didn't Guruji modify Dasam Granth bani to reflect that Krishan was not a manifestation of God, only thinking he was mistakenly? Even Bhai Gurdas Ji says this:</p><p></p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy">ਕਿਸਨ ਲੈਆ ਅਵਤਾਰੁ ਜਗਿ ਮਹਮਾ ਦਸਮ ਸਕੰਧੁ ਵਖਾਣੈ । </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy">kisan|aiaa avataaru jagi mahamaa dasam sakandhu vakhaanai|</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy">The tenth chapter of the Bhagavat defines the glory of incarnation of Krsna in the world.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy">ਲੀਲਾ ਚਲਤ ਅਚਰਜ ਕਰਿ ਜੋਗੁ ਭੋਗੁ ਰਸ ਰਲੀਆ ਮਾਣੈ । </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy">leelaa chalat acharaj kari jogu bhogu ras raleeaa maanai|</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy">He performed many wonderful acts of bhog (merriment) and yoga (renunciation).</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy">ਮਹਾ ਭਾਰਥੁ ਕਰਵਾਇਓਨੁ ਕੈਰੋ ਪਾਂਡੋ ਕਰਿ ਹੈਰਾਣੈ । </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy">mahaa bhaaradu karavaaiaonu kairo paando kari hairaanai|</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy">Making Kauravs (sons of Dhrttrastr) and Pandays to fight against each other he further made them wonder struck. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy">ਇੰਦ੍ਰਾਦਿਕ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾਦਿਕਾ ਮਹਿਮਾ ਮਿਤਿ ਮਿਰਜਾਦ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ । </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy">indraadik brahamaadikaa mahimaa miti mirajaad n jaanai|</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy">Indr and Brahma et al. donot know the limits of his grandeur. </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy">ਮਿਲੀਆ ਟਹਲਾ ਵੰਡਿ ਕੈ ਜਗਿ ਰਾਜਸੂ ਰਾਜੇ ਰਾਣੈ । </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy">mileeaa tahalaa vandi kai jagi raajasoo raajay raanai|</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy">When Raisfiy was arranged by Yudhisthar, all were alloted their duties.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy">ਮੰਗ ਲਈ ਹਰਿ ਟਹਲ ਏਹ ਪੈਰ ਧੋਇ ਚਰਣੋਦਕੁ ਮਾਣੈ । </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy">mang|aee hari tahal ayh pair dhoi charanodaku maanai|</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy">Krsna himself tookover the duty of washing of the feet of all so that through this service</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy"></span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy">ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਿਾਣੈ ॥੯॥ </span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy">saadhasangati gur sabadu siaanai ॥9॥</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy">he could realise the importance of the service of the holy congregation and the Word of the Guru.</span></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><span style="color: Navy">~ Vaar 23 Pauri 9 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas</span></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Gurbani makes the link. The point of this discussion was not how Sikhs should idolize Krishna, but to answer objections that Hindu belief is intolerable for a Sikh. We worship the Supreme Vaheguru. And Gurbani acknowledges that this Supreme uncreated aspect is manifest in creation and in incarnations such as Krishanavataar. Both the nirgun and sargun are the One god. Otherwise it would be a pantheism of many gods. But Gurbani says everything derives from the Absolute uncreated Nirankaar.</p><p></p><p></p><p>~Bhul chak maaf karni ji</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Harjas Kaur Khalsa, post: 79109, member: 2125"] God can be betrayed? Even the word God we are speaking now cannot touch the reality. Is some little mataji who prays sincerely to Krishan betraying the reality of God? [INDENT][COLOR="Navy"]ਚੋਜੀ ਮੇਰੇ ਗੋਵਿੰਦਾ ਚੋਜੀ ਮੇਰੇ ਪਿਆਰਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਚੋਜੀ ਜੀਉ ॥ chojee maerae govindhaa chojee maerae piaariaa har prabh maeraa chojee jeeo || Playful is my Lord of the Universe; playful is my Beloved. My Lord God is wondrous and playful. ਹਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੁ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਮੇਰੇ ਗੋਵਿਦਾ ਹਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਗੋਪੀ ਖੋਜੀ ਜੀਉ ॥ har aapae kaanha oupaaeidhaa maerae govidhaa har aapae gopee khojee jeeo || The Lord Himself created Krishna, O my Lord of the Universe; the Lord Himself is the milkmaids who seek Him. ~SGGS Ji p. 174[/COLOR][/INDENT] It is true, Gurbani says: [INDENT][COLOR="DarkBlue"]ਜੁਜ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਰਿ ਛਲੀ ਚੰਦ੍ਰਾਵਲਿ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੁ ਜਾਦਮੁ ਭਇਆ ॥ juj mehi jor shhalee chandhraaval kaanh kirasan jaadham bhaeiaa || In the Jujar Veda, Kaan Krishna of the Yaadva tribe seduced Chandraavali by force. ਪਾਰਜਾਤੁ ਗੋਪੀ ਲੈ ਆਇਆ ਬਿੰਦ੍ਰਾਬਨ ਮਹਿ ਰੰਗੁ ਕੀਆ ॥ paarajaath gopee lai aaeiaa bindhraaban mehi rang keeaa || He brought the Elysian Tree for his milk-maid, and revelled in Brindaaban. ਕਲਿ ਮਹਿ ਬੇਦੁ ਅਥਰਬਣੁ ਹੂਆ ਨਾਉ ਖੁਦਾਈ ਅਲਹੁ ਭਇਆ ॥ kal mehi baedh athharaban hooaa naao khudhaaee alahu bhaeiaa || In the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Atharva Veda became prominent; Allah became the Name of God. ~sggs jI P. 470[/COLOR][/INDENT] You say, [COLOR="DarkGreen"]"Quality of spiritual goodness is learned from those ones who remain undefeated from Maya.[/COLOR] Liberation cannot be obtained from someone defeated by Maya. But you are talking quality of spiritual goodness as if there is no deva, no avatar, no religion of the past had any spiritual goodness. Yet, is that what Gurbani means when it says: [INDENT][COLOR="Blue"]ਦੀਨਾ ਦੀਨ ਦਇਆਲ ਭਏ ਹੈ ਜਿਉ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੁ ਬਿਦਰ ਘਰਿ ਆਇਆ ॥ dheenaa dheen dhaeiaal bheae hai jio kirasan bidhar ghar aaeiaa || God is Merciful to the meekest of the meek; Krishna came to the house of Bidar, a devotee of low social status. ਮਿਲਿਓ ਸੁਦਾਮਾ ਭਾਵਨੀ ਧਾਰਿ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਆਗੈ ਦਾਲਦੁ ਭੰਜਿ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥੪॥ miliou sudhaamaa bhaavanee dhhaar sabh kishh aagai dhaaladh bhanj samaaeiaa ||4|| Sudama loved God, who came to meet him; God sent everything to his home, and ended his poverty. ||4|| ~SGGS Ji p. 1191[/COLOR][/INDENT] [INDENT][COLOR="Purple"]ਜਿਨ ਤੂ ਜਪਿਓ ਤੇਈ ਜਨ ਨੀਕੇ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਤਿਅਹੁ ਕਉ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਵੈਗੋ ॥ jin thoo japiou thaeee jan neekae har japathiahu ko sukh paavaigo || Those humble beings who meditate on You are noble and exalted. Meditating on the Lord, they are at peace. ਬਿਦਰ ਦਾਸੀ ਸੁਤੁ ਛੋਕ ਛੋਹਰਾ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੁ ਅੰਕਿ ਗਲਿ ਲਾਵੈਗੋ ॥੨॥ bidhar dhaasee suth shhok shhoharaa kirasan ank gal laavaigo ||2|| Bidur, the son of a slave-girl, was an untouchable, but Krishna hugged him close in His Embrace. ||2|| ਜਲ ਤੇ ਓਪਤਿ ਭਈ ਹੈ ਕਾਸਟ ਕਾਸਟ ਅੰਗਿ ਤਰਾਵੈਗੋ ॥ jal thae oupath bhee hai kaasatt kaasatt ang tharaavaigo || Wood is produced from water, but by holding onto wood, one is saved from drowning. ਰਾਮ ਜਨਾ ਹਰਿ ਆਪਿ ਸਵਾਰੇ ਅਪਨਾ ਬਿਰਦੁ ਰਖਾਵੈਗੋ ॥੩॥ raam janaa har aap savaarae apanaa biradh rakhaavaigo ||3|| The Lord Himself embellishes and exalts His humble servants; He confirms His Innate Nature. ||3|| ~SGGS Ji p. 1309[/COLOR][/INDENT] [INDENT][COLOR="Blue"]ਕਿਸੁ ਜਾਤਿ ਤੇ ਕਿਹ ਪਦਹਿ ਅਮਰਿਓ ਰਾਮ ਭਗਤਿ ਬਿਸੇਖ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ kis jaath thae kih padhehi amariou raam bhagath bisaekh ||1|| rehaao || From such a low social status, what a high status he obtained! Devotional worship to the Lord is sublime! ||1||Pause|| ਸੁਆਨ ਸਤ੍ਰੁ ਅਜਾਤੁ ਸਭ ਤੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨ ਲਾਵੈ ਹੇਤੁ ॥ suaan sathra ajaath sabh thae kirasa laavai haeth || The killer of dogs, the lowest of all, was lovingly embraced by Krishna. ਲੋਗੁ ਬਪੁਰਾ ਕਿਆ ਸਰਾਹੈ ਤੀਨਿ ਲੋਕ ਪ੍ਰਵੇਸ ॥੨॥ log bapuraa kiaa saraahai theen lok pravaes ||2|| See how the poor people praise him! His praise extends throughout the three worlds. ||2 ~SGGS Ji p. 1124[/COLOR] [/INDENT] To say that God could not manifest in Krishna is same as saying no one in the world, in any past age, in any other religion could have God except for Sikhs. This is talking like Muslims. And it is not what Gurbani says. Gurbani says the world cannot have liberation without Guruji's Naam. This is true. But you are implying these people don't have God. That isn't what Gurbani is saying. Gurbani says God manifested through the Hindu devas, and is named Allah, depending on the age. Or are you suggesting the monotheism of the West is true, so Vaheguru is manifest as Allah and the unameable Jewish God YHWH, but not through Hindu devas which Gurbani uses to call for names of God, Ram, Gobind? With this Islamic logic, do you reject also the God of Christians which is NOT a monotheistic One, but a Trinity including a Divine human incarnation as Jesus? Or, do you accept that a manifestation of the Parabrahm exists in the world, but the most complete manifestation which can liberate even the Hindu devas in age of Kalyug is the Guru? Clearly Guru is higher than Krishna. Guru has accomplished more than any Hindu deva, and still people say Guru is only an ordinary human, or a prophet. How can this be? Sikhs are not told anywhere to worship Krishna. It is Sikh dharam to go directly to the source, Parabrahm, Vaheguru. But how can Sikhs deny that Parabrahm was also manifest in Krishna if that is what Gurbani says? That is not to say, as Vaishanvs say, that Krishna is the Parabrahm. We do not say that. But, according to Gurbani, that the Parabrahm manifested through Krishna for the age of Dwapar Yug and Now the Parabrahm is given directly to the Guru's Sikhs in form of the Shabad. I think it is clear Gurbani is also showing respect for Krishna and acknowledging him as an avatar, manifestation of God for the age. If not, can you please explain the following shabad? [INDENT][COLOR="Indigo"]ਮਧੁਸੂਦਨ ਦਾਮੋਦਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ॥ madhhusoodhan dhaamodhar suaamee || He is the Slayer of demons, our Supreme Lord and Master. ਰਿਖੀਕੇਸ ਗੋਵਰਧਨ ਧਾਰੀ ਮੁਰਲੀ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਾ ॥੧॥ rikheekaes govaradhhan dhhaaree muralee manohar har rangaa ||1|| The Supreme Rishi, the Master of the sensory organs, the uplifter of mountains, the joyful Lord playing His enticing flute. ||1|| ਮੋਹਨ ਮਾਧਵ [B]ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨ[/B] ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥ mohan maadhhav [B]kirasa[/B] muraarae || The Enticer of Hearts, the Lord of wealth, [B]Krishna[/B], the Enemy of ego. ਜਗਦੀਸੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਅਸੁਰ ਸੰਘਾਰੇ ॥ jagadheesur har jeeo asur sanghaarae || The Lord of the Universe, the Dear Lord, the Destroyer of demons. ਜਗਜੀਵਨ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਘਟ ਘਟ ਵਾਸੀ ਹੈ ਸੰਗਾ ॥੨॥ jagajeevan abinaasee thaakur ghatt ghatt vaasee hai sangaa ||2|| The Life of the World, our eternal and ever-stable Lord and Master dwells within each and every heart, and is always with us. ||2|| ਧਰਣੀਧਰ ਈਸ[B] ਨਰਸਿੰਘ[/B][B] ਨਾਰਾਇਣ[/B] ॥ dhharaneedhhar ees[B] narasingh[/B][B] naaraaein[/B] || The Support of the Earth, [B]the man-lion[/B],[B] the Supreme Lord God. [/B] ਦਾੜਾ ਅਗ੍ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਿ ਧਰਾਇਣ ॥ dhaarraa agrae prithham dhharaaein || The Protector who tears apart demons with His teeth, the Upholder of the earth. [B]ਬਾਵਨ ਰੂਪ[/B]ੁ ਕੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸੇਤੀ ਹੈ ਚੰਗਾ ॥੩॥ [B]baavan roop[/B] keeaa thudhh karathae sabh hee saethee hai changaa ||3|| [B]O Creator, You assumed the form of[/B] the pygmy to humble the demons; You are the Lord God of all. ||3|| [B]ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥ sree raamachandh jis roop n raekhiaa || You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature. [/B] ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ ਦਰਸਿ ਅਨੂਪਿਆ ॥ banavaalee chakrapaan dharas anoopiaa || Adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in Your hand, Your form is incomparably beautiful. ਸਹਸ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਹੈ ਸਹਸਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸਭ ਹੈ ਮੰਗਾ ॥੪॥ sehas naethr moorath hai sehasaa eik dhaathaa sabh hai mangaa ||4|| You have thousands of eyes, and thousands of forms. You alone are the Giver, and all are beggars of You. ||4|| ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲੁ ਅਨਾਥਹ ਨਾਥੇ ॥ bhagath vashhal anaathheh naathhae || You are the Lover of Your devotees, the Master of the masterless. ਗੋਪੀ ਨਾਥੁ ਸਗਲ ਹੈ ਸਾਥੇ ॥ gopee naathh sagal hai saathhae || The Lord and Master of the milk-maids, You are the companion of all. [B]ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦਾਤ[/B]ੇ ਬਰਨਿ ਨ ਸਾਕਉ ਗੁਣ ਅੰਗਾ ॥੫॥ [B]baasudhaev niranjan dhaathae[/B] baran n saako gun angaa ||5|| [B]O Lord, Immacuate Great Giver,[/B] I cannot describe even an iota of Your Glorious Virtues. ||5 [B]ਮੁਕੰਦ[/B] ਮਨੋਹਰ ਲਖਮੀ [B]ਨਾਰਾਇਣ[/B] ॥ [B]mukandh[/B] manohar lakhamee[B] naaraaein[/B] || [B]Liberator[/B], Enticing Lord, Lord of Lakshmi, [B]Supreme Lord God. [/B] ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਲਜਾ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਉਧਾਰਣ ॥ dhropathee lajaa nivaar oudhhaaran || Savior of Dropadi's honor. [B]ਕਮਲਾਕੰਤ[/B] ਕਰਹਿ ਕੰਤੂਹਲ ਅਨਦ ਬਿਨੋਦੀ ਨਿਹਸੰਗਾ ॥੬॥ [B]kamalaakanth[/B] karehi kanthoohal anadh binodhee nihasangaa ||6|| [B]Lord of Maya[/B], miracle-worker, absorbed in delightful play, unattached. ||6|| ਅਮੋਘ ਦਰਸਨ [B]ਆਜੂਨੀ ਸੰਭਉ[/B] ॥ amogh dharasan[B] aajoonee sanbho[/B] || The Blessed Vision of His Darshan is fruitful and rewarding; [B]He is not born, He is self-existent.[/B] ~SGGS JI p. 1082 [/COLOR][/INDENT] 1. If Krishna is in sargun form so are you is something I already said. [I][B] However[/B][/I], the diference between you and Krishna is that[I][U] he is an avtar[/U][/I]. As an avtar he is recognized as a [U][I]deva[/I][/U], a being higher than an ordinary man, who descends to the lower sansaaric level for the purpose of being a light in the world. So consider the age when Krishna was appearing, do you think krishna and whole of Bhagavad-Gita are worthless and have no light of God because Krishna was also caught by Maya? Does this make Krishna of the same level as some pakhandi baba? If a quality of an avtar is descent from God, and the ability to be in [U][I]state of God-consciousness[/I][/U], than in that frame an avtar is [U][I]NOT in Maya[/I][/U], and not speaking from personality of incarnation, but of the God Himself. [INDENT][COLOR="Purple"]ਤੀਨਿ ਤਿਲੋਕ ਸਮਾਧਿ ਪਲੋਵੈ ॥ theen thilok samaadhh palovai || The three qualities and the three worlds vanish, in the state of Samaadhi. ~SGGS Ji p. 974[/COLOR][/INDENT] Gurbani says the Parabrahm manifested in the physical reality. The very process of manifesting in the 3 gunas and duality gives rise to Maya. The power of the Parabrahm is diffused when it enters into materiality. So Gurbani isn't saying the avataras were fake or did not have manifestation of Parabrahm for the age. Gurbani is saying the God's power comes under influence of Maya, because Maya is an element of the physical dimension, which is what Parabrahm Nirankaar has Himself created! He created reality this way! God is not trying to alter the creation, it serves a purpose. The Maya and the gunas are a property of deliberate design! Only the Shabad is free of Maya in the sansaara. And this is something new from any previous age and required because the 4 legs of religion were lost in Kalyug. [INDENT][COLOR="Blue"]ਆਪੇ ਕਾਰਣੁ ਕੀਆ ਅਪਰੰਪਰਿ ਸਭੁ ਤੇਰੋ ਕੀਆ ਕਮਾਇਦਾ ॥੧੦॥ aapae kaaran keeaa aparanpar sabh thaero keeaa kamaaeidhaa ||10|| The Infinite Lord Himself created the creation. Everyone acts as You make them act, Lord. ||10 ਰਜ ਤਮ ਸਤ ਕਲ ਤੇਰੀ ਛਾਇਆ ॥ raj tham sath kal thaeree shhaaeiaa || Your Power is diffused through the three gunas: raajas, taamas and satva. ~SGGS Ji p. 1038[/COLOR][/INDENT] [INDENT][COLOR="Blue"]ਸਰਗੁਨ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਸੁੰਨ ਸਮਾਧੀ ਆਪਿ ॥ saragun niragun nirankaar sunn samaadhhee aap || He possesses all qualities; He transcends all qualities; He is the Formless Lord. He Himself is in Primal Samaadhi. ਆਪਨ ਕੀਆ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਫਿਰਿ ਜਾਪਿ ॥੧॥ aapan keeaa naanakaa aapae hee fir jaap ||1|| Through His Creation, O Nanak, He meditates on Himself. ||1|| ~SGGS Ji p. 290[/COLOR][/INDENT] Avtar is still meaning avtar. Not just incarnated and born, but, incarnation of the Jyot of God coming into sansaara from very high level of reality. Gurbani clearly recognizes Krishan as a deva. So an avtar is not like a prophet who is fully human, but God gives a message to that prophet and he testifies the message God gives him. In this we see Guruji is an avtar, not a prophet, or Gurbani would be saying Guru is a prophet not an avtar. As a prophet, Guruji would be fully human and ignorant. But God would give him a message which he should testify to the world. This is not what Gurbani says. It says Guru is merged in the Jyot and has God-consciousness. Guru Himself, in that state of merging does not speak as an ordinary human. The thing is we are also seeing Gurbani say Krishna is an avtar. Since he preceded Guruji, he is less than Guruji in the sense that Guru is a more complete manifestation of the Jyot of Vaheguru which was necessary for age of Kaliyug. Is there some other way you can explain this pauri? [INDENT][COLOR="Purple"]ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਛਲਿਓ ਬਲਿ ਬਾਵਨ ਭਾਇਓ ॥ sathajug thai maaniou shhaliou bal baavan bhaaeiou || In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf. ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥ thraethai thai maaniou raam raghuvans kehaaeiou || In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty. ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ਕੰਸੁ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ ਕੀਓ ॥ dhuaapur kirasan muraar kans kirathaarathh keeou || In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans. ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ ਕਉ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਭੈ ਭਗਤਹ ਜਨ ਦੀਓ ॥ ougrasain ko raaj abhai bhagatheh jan dheeou || You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness. ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥ kalijug pramaan naanak gur angadh amar kehaaeiou || In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das. ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਬਿਚਲੁ ਅਟਲੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਓ ॥੭॥ sree guroo raaj abichal attal aadh purakh furamaaeiou ||7|| The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent, according the Command of the Primal Lord God. ||7|| ~SGGS Ji p. 1390[/COLOR][/INDENT] [INDENT][COLOR="Blue"]ਕਲਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਧੂ ਅੰਧਾਰੁ ਸਾ ਚੜਿਆ ਰੈ ਭਾਣੁ ॥ kal vich dhhoo andhhaar saa charriaa rai bhaan || In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, there was only pitch darkness. Then, He rose like the sun to illuminate the darkness. ~SGGS Ji p. 968[/COLOR][/INDENT] So on one level, it is true Krishan is not equal to Guru because Gurbani says all these devas fall at Guru's feet. However, as you pointed out, Veerji, as I pointed out the very process of descending into the sansaara gives rise to Maya. And for this reason, in this age, all avataars and devas are insufficient. So the Parabrahm Himself descended as the Shabad. There are many levels to God-consciousness as there are levels of reality or dimensions. Beyond even the dimensions is the infinity of nothingness which is described as nirguna. Only Guruji has perceived them all. Only Guru has gone to the infinite depth of the nirgun. But the discussion is not whether Krishna speaking from God-consciousness for Dwapara Yug takes something away from Guruji or threatens the Sikh identity. Clearly the Sikh identity is in Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Whatever is expressed there is from Guru. So it is Sikh. There are many schools of thought in Hinduism. And all of them contrast in some way with Sikh teaching. Krishan isn't important to a Sikh. We don't meditate on Hindu devas or scriptures. But the discussion was expressed that a Sikh can't tolerate Krishna's declaration of being the God. I don't see this disqualification of Hindu religion in Gurbani. It fulfilled a certain role for a certain age and was a manifestation of the God. I don't see where a Sikh can't tolerate anything. We have Gurbani. Nothing is a threat to us. Krishna is not for us the Primal Absolute. But equally, Krishan appears to be recognized as an avtar in Gurbani with God-consciousness so that Narayan was speaking through him. If this interpretation is incorrect, and not to mention the many places in Dasam Granth which relates story of Krishanavtaar including where his mother perceived him to be God incarnate? If this is so unaaceptable, why didn't Guruji modify Dasam Granth bani to reflect that Krishan was not a manifestation of God, only thinking he was mistakenly? Even Bhai Gurdas Ji says this: [INDENT][COLOR="Navy"]ਕਿਸਨ ਲੈਆ ਅਵਤਾਰੁ ਜਗਿ ਮਹਮਾ ਦਸਮ ਸਕੰਧੁ ਵਖਾਣੈ । kisan|aiaa avataaru jagi mahamaa dasam sakandhu vakhaanai| The tenth chapter of the Bhagavat defines the glory of incarnation of Krsna in the world. ਲੀਲਾ ਚਲਤ ਅਚਰਜ ਕਰਿ ਜੋਗੁ ਭੋਗੁ ਰਸ ਰਲੀਆ ਮਾਣੈ । leelaa chalat acharaj kari jogu bhogu ras raleeaa maanai| He performed many wonderful acts of bhog (merriment) and yoga (renunciation). ਮਹਾ ਭਾਰਥੁ ਕਰਵਾਇਓਨੁ ਕੈਰੋ ਪਾਂਡੋ ਕਰਿ ਹੈਰਾਣੈ । mahaa bhaaradu karavaaiaonu kairo paando kari hairaanai| Making Kauravs (sons of Dhrttrastr) and Pandays to fight against each other he further made them wonder struck. ਇੰਦ੍ਰਾਦਿਕ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾਦਿਕਾ ਮਹਿਮਾ ਮਿਤਿ ਮਿਰਜਾਦ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ । indraadik brahamaadikaa mahimaa miti mirajaad n jaanai| Indr and Brahma et al. donot know the limits of his grandeur. ਮਿਲੀਆ ਟਹਲਾ ਵੰਡਿ ਕੈ ਜਗਿ ਰਾਜਸੂ ਰਾਜੇ ਰਾਣੈ । mileeaa tahalaa vandi kai jagi raajasoo raajay raanai| When Raisfiy was arranged by Yudhisthar, all were alloted their duties. ਮੰਗ ਲਈ ਹਰਿ ਟਹਲ ਏਹ ਪੈਰ ਧੋਇ ਚਰਣੋਦਕੁ ਮਾਣੈ । mang|aee hari tahal ayh pair dhoi charanodaku maanai| Krsna himself tookover the duty of washing of the feet of all so that through this service ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਿਾਣੈ ॥੯॥ saadhasangati gur sabadu siaanai ॥9॥ he could realise the importance of the service of the holy congregation and the Word of the Guru. ~ Vaar 23 Pauri 9 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas[/COLOR][/INDENT] Gurbani makes the link. The point of this discussion was not how Sikhs should idolize Krishna, but to answer objections that Hindu belief is intolerable for a Sikh. We worship the Supreme Vaheguru. And Gurbani acknowledges that this Supreme uncreated aspect is manifest in creation and in incarnations such as Krishanavataar. Both the nirgun and sargun are the One god. Otherwise it would be a pantheism of many gods. But Gurbani says everything derives from the Absolute uncreated Nirankaar. ~Bhul chak maaf karni ji [/QUOTE]
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