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Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh
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<blockquote data-quote="Randip Singh" data-source="post: 89037" data-attributes="member: 1323"><p>Harsimran Ji</p><p> </p><p> Mr Singh is inherently wrong.</p><p> </p><p> A Humble request Harsimran ji. Note, the discussion here should be the Fools Wrangle Over Flesh essay. No Pro- Vegetarian or Pro-Meat propaganda will be tolerated.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> Sorry, you have not understood the thoughts behind Jhatka at all.</p><p> </p><p> A Sikh must avoid ALL <strong><u>ritually</u></strong> slaughtered meat. This would include any meat (or vegetables for that matter), that have had prayers to ennoble them. This would include, Halaal, Kosher, and even Hindu Bali. For a Sikh it is not the issue about suffering because even a plant suffers when it dies and is cut as Guru ji points out in this metaphor:</p><p> </p><p> <span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Page 143 of the Sri <a href="http://www.sikhism.us/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/666-guru-granth-sahib-history-arrangements-text.html" target="_blank">Guru Granth</a> Sahib Ji </span></span></p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span><em><span style="color: red"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">mehlaa 1.</span></span></em><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span><em><span style="color: red"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">vaykh je mithaa kati-aa kat kut baDhaa paa-ay.</span></span></em><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span><em><span style="color: red"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">khundhaa andar rakh kai dayn so mal sajaa-ay.</span></span></em><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span><em><span style="color: red"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">ras kas tatar paa-ee-ai tapai tai villaa-ay.</span></span></em><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span><em><span style="color: red"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">bhee so fog samaalee-ai dichai ag jaalaa-ay.</span></span></em><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span><em><span style="color: red"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">naanak mithai patree-ai vaykhhu lokaa aa-ay.</span></span></em><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span><em><span style="color: red"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">First Mehl:</span></span></em><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span><em><span style="color: red"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Look, and see how the sugar-cane is cut down. After cutting away its branches, its feet are bound together into bundles,</span></span></em><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span><em><span style="color: red"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">and then, it is placed between the wooden rollers and crushed.</span></span></em><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span><em><span style="color: red"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">What punishment is inflicted upon it! Its juice is extracted and placed in the cauldron; as it is heated, it groans and cries out.</span></span></em><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span><em><span style="color: red"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">And then, the crushed cane is collected and burnt in the fire below.</span></span></em><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span><em><span style="color: red"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Nanak: come, people, and see how the sweet sugar-cane is treated!</span></span></em><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span></p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"></span></span><span style="color: blue"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Sri <a href="http://www.sikhism.us/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/666-guru-granth-sahib-history-arrangements-text.html" target="_blank">Guru Granth</a> Sahib ji</span></span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> Things like Anustrani etc were frowned upon by the Guru’s, why? </p><p> Why ritualism? </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> Do you know that ritually prepared vegetables are forbidden for Sikh’s? Do you know why?</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> Actually you ARE asking people to be a vegetarian. </p><p> </p><p> Tactics being used are :</p><p> </p><p> 1)Frighten people – i.e. planet is destroyed by meat eaters.</p><p> 2)Sikhism says yes to vegetarianism and no to meat – <strong>not true</strong>.</p><p> 3)Pain and Suffering argument – i.e. meat eating is only causing suffering to beings and not vegetarianism.</p><p> 4)Half Truths – animals are only used for meat, and not for leather, medicine, milk, wool etc etc.</p><p> </p><p> If you care so much for the environment I suggest you adopt a Hunter gather lifestyle, which by ALL measures is the Greenest way to live.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> Point 1 – This comment was meant to be tonge and cheek <span style="font-family: 'Wingdings'">J</span></p><p> Point 2 – As a powerlifter, I do not know of even one individual who is vegetarian ( who does not at least eat eggs) who can compete at the highest level.</p><p> Point 3 – Many vegetarians take Creatine supplement (which is harmful), and is only found in meat sources.</p><p> </p><p> As for the spirit of the Khalsa, you should remember that the Spiritual and the Temporal go hand in hand. No point in shutting your eyes to the realities of the world, and one of those realities is that people who have a balanced diet which includes some steamed meat and fish are far healthier. Vegetarians have to supplement (this in itself is problematic).</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> Nonsense.</p><p> </p><p> Prove the 10th Master was vegetarian. There is NO evidence to support these fantastical claims. This is sheer fantasy. By all accounts some of the Guru’s ate meat and some didn’t. The Guru’s were from Kshatriya clan’s and meat eating would not have been alien to them.</p><p></p><p>There are eyewitness accounts of Sikhs of the time hunting and eating meat.</p><p> </p><p> The vegetarian meat split occurred when Bandahi Sikh’s started advocating vegetarianism due to Bandha’s Bairagi background.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> But you have HUGE holes in your argument about environment.</p><p> </p><p> What about leather?</p><p> What about wool?</p><p> What about milk?</p><p> What about medicines made from animals?</p><p> Leather skins for tabla and other instruments?</p><p> </p><p> Have you heard about the phasing out of Cows from America and reintroducing Buffalo into America for meat? Do you know why? Do you know why Buffalo are better for the environment?</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> You have not defined Sarbat Dha Bhalla, and Sinister has destroyed your points.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> This is nothing to do with meat. Please address points about MILK, leather wool etc before you talk about meat.</p><p> Also study the Buffalo effect.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> No you have not proved it is not Sustainable. Your arguments are based on conjecture.</p><p> </p><p> You have not addressed, milk, leather, wool etc.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> Your argument on Sustainability fails so this fails.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> Do you think everyone on the planet can get Organic vegetables or organic milk? Do you think they can obtain these without harming insects, birds or the environment.? Have you any idea about the amount of methane produced by dairy cows? </p><p> </p><p> Where is your evidence that milk production is more sustainable than meat?</p><p> </p><p> Your argument fails.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> Fact of the matter is you will not admit that vegetable and milk production methods are not acceptable today. In order to live the life you are advocating for meat eaters YOU must do the same for your vegetarian lifestyle. </p><p> </p><p> Grow your own. </p><p> Don’t harm the Eco-System.</p><p> Don’t harm insects or birds.</p><p> Don’t harm natural habitats.</p><p> Don’t harm natural species.</p><p> </p><p> Get the picture.</p><p> </p><p> Sikhism’s message is clear. If your conscience does not allow you to eat meat then don’t . If it does, then it is fine.</p><p> </p><p> On a side note, you have picked a debate on the environment who actually does work on the environment in real life, so before making points please present facts and not conjecture. The Eco-System and its survival is far more complex than a bunch of meat eaters. One can have whatever diet one chooses, so long as it is Sustainable, and there are some excellent examples of booth Sustainable meat and vegetable production around the world.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Randip Singh, post: 89037, member: 1323"] Harsimran Ji Mr Singh is inherently wrong. A Humble request Harsimran ji. Note, the discussion here should be the Fools Wrangle Over Flesh essay. No Pro- Vegetarian or Pro-Meat propaganda will be tolerated. Sorry, you have not understood the thoughts behind Jhatka at all. A Sikh must avoid ALL [B][U]ritually[/U][/B] slaughtered meat. This would include any meat (or vegetables for that matter), that have had prayers to ennoble them. This would include, Halaal, Kosher, and even Hindu Bali. For a Sikh it is not the issue about suffering because even a plant suffers when it dies and is cut as Guru ji points out in this metaphor: [COLOR=black][FONT=Arial]Page 143 of the Sri [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/666-guru-granth-sahib-history-arrangements-text.html"]Guru Granth[/URL] Sahib Ji [/FONT][/COLOR][I][COLOR=red][FONT=Arial]mehlaa 1.[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][COLOR=black][FONT=Arial] [/FONT][/COLOR][I][COLOR=red][FONT=Arial]vaykh je mithaa kati-aa kat kut baDhaa paa-ay.[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][COLOR=black][FONT=Arial] [/FONT][/COLOR][I][COLOR=red][FONT=Arial]khundhaa andar rakh kai dayn so mal sajaa-ay.[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][COLOR=black][FONT=Arial] [/FONT][/COLOR][I][COLOR=red][FONT=Arial]ras kas tatar paa-ee-ai tapai tai villaa-ay.[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][COLOR=black][FONT=Arial] [/FONT][/COLOR][I][COLOR=red][FONT=Arial]bhee so fog samaalee-ai dichai ag jaalaa-ay.[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][COLOR=black][FONT=Arial] [/FONT][/COLOR][I][COLOR=red][FONT=Arial]naanak mithai patree-ai vaykhhu lokaa aa-ay.[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][COLOR=black][FONT=Arial] [/FONT][/COLOR][I][COLOR=red][FONT=Arial]First Mehl:[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][COLOR=black][FONT=Arial] [/FONT][/COLOR][I][COLOR=red][FONT=Arial]Look, and see how the sugar-cane is cut down. After cutting away its branches, its feet are bound together into bundles,[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][COLOR=black][FONT=Arial] [/FONT][/COLOR][I][COLOR=red][FONT=Arial]and then, it is placed between the wooden rollers and crushed.[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][COLOR=black][FONT=Arial] [/FONT][/COLOR][I][COLOR=red][FONT=Arial]What punishment is inflicted upon it! Its juice is extracted and placed in the cauldron; as it is heated, it groans and cries out.[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][COLOR=black][FONT=Arial] [/FONT][/COLOR][I][COLOR=red][FONT=Arial]And then, the crushed cane is collected and burnt in the fire below.[/FONT][/COLOR][/I][COLOR=black][FONT=Arial] [/FONT][/COLOR][I][COLOR=red][FONT=Arial]Nanak: come, people, and see how the sweet sugar-cane is treated![/FONT][/COLOR][/I][COLOR=black][FONT=Arial] [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=blue][FONT=Arial]Sri [URL="http://www.sikhism.us/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/666-guru-granth-sahib-history-arrangements-text.html"]Guru Granth[/URL] Sahib ji[/FONT][/COLOR] Things like Anustrani etc were frowned upon by the Guru’s, why? Why ritualism? Do you know that ritually prepared vegetables are forbidden for Sikh’s? Do you know why? Actually you ARE asking people to be a vegetarian. Tactics being used are : 1)Frighten people – i.e. planet is destroyed by meat eaters. 2)Sikhism says yes to vegetarianism and no to meat – [B]not true[/B]. 3)Pain and Suffering argument – i.e. meat eating is only causing suffering to beings and not vegetarianism. 4)Half Truths – animals are only used for meat, and not for leather, medicine, milk, wool etc etc. If you care so much for the environment I suggest you adopt a Hunter gather lifestyle, which by ALL measures is the Greenest way to live. Point 1 – This comment was meant to be tonge and cheek [FONT=Wingdings]J[/FONT] Point 2 – As a powerlifter, I do not know of even one individual who is vegetarian ( who does not at least eat eggs) who can compete at the highest level. Point 3 – Many vegetarians take Creatine supplement (which is harmful), and is only found in meat sources. As for the spirit of the Khalsa, you should remember that the Spiritual and the Temporal go hand in hand. No point in shutting your eyes to the realities of the world, and one of those realities is that people who have a balanced diet which includes some steamed meat and fish are far healthier. Vegetarians have to supplement (this in itself is problematic). Nonsense. Prove the 10th Master was vegetarian. There is NO evidence to support these fantastical claims. This is sheer fantasy. By all accounts some of the Guru’s ate meat and some didn’t. The Guru’s were from Kshatriya clan’s and meat eating would not have been alien to them. There are eyewitness accounts of Sikhs of the time hunting and eating meat. The vegetarian meat split occurred when Bandahi Sikh’s started advocating vegetarianism due to Bandha’s Bairagi background. But you have HUGE holes in your argument about environment. What about leather? What about wool? What about milk? What about medicines made from animals? Leather skins for tabla and other instruments? Have you heard about the phasing out of Cows from America and reintroducing Buffalo into America for meat? Do you know why? Do you know why Buffalo are better for the environment? You have not defined Sarbat Dha Bhalla, and Sinister has destroyed your points. This is nothing to do with meat. Please address points about MILK, leather wool etc before you talk about meat. Also study the Buffalo effect. No you have not proved it is not Sustainable. Your arguments are based on conjecture. You have not addressed, milk, leather, wool etc. Your argument on Sustainability fails so this fails. Do you think everyone on the planet can get Organic vegetables or organic milk? Do you think they can obtain these without harming insects, birds or the environment.? Have you any idea about the amount of methane produced by dairy cows? Where is your evidence that milk production is more sustainable than meat? Your argument fails. Fact of the matter is you will not admit that vegetable and milk production methods are not acceptable today. In order to live the life you are advocating for meat eaters YOU must do the same for your vegetarian lifestyle. Grow your own. Don’t harm the Eco-System. Don’t harm insects or birds. Don’t harm natural habitats. Don’t harm natural species. Get the picture. Sikhism’s message is clear. If your conscience does not allow you to eat meat then don’t . If it does, then it is fine. On a side note, you have picked a debate on the environment who actually does work on the environment in real life, so before making points please present facts and not conjecture. The Eco-System and its survival is far more complex than a bunch of meat eaters. One can have whatever diet one chooses, so long as it is Sustainable, and there are some excellent examples of booth Sustainable meat and vegetable production around the world. [/QUOTE]
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