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Fools Who Wrangle Over Flesh
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<blockquote data-quote="hchohan" data-source="post: 49168" data-attributes="member: 4082"><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Hello again</span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Sorry I have been off this thread for a while (busy weekend) – however I managed to grab two hours this evening. There seem to be an overwhelming number of replies that it would take me too long to reply to them all. Even if I did I feel we would be going round in circles as people are just intent to find the smallest faults and apply the maximum spin to the words of this simple Sikh.</span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Therefore I try my very hardest to make this my last post on this particular thread. However where previously I have only shared some of my own feelings on the issue – instead I humbly endeavour (with my limited knowledge) to reply directly to the issues raised by Randip Ji as the author of the original article. You can then make play of my words to your hearts content for after this you will have lost my attention.</span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Firstly to summarise the points Ranjit has made:</span></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Mistranslation and Mis-interpretation of the SGGS.</span></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Flesh of Animal is the same as the flesh from vegetation.</span></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Approval from other authors </span></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Sikhs in History ate meat</span></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">The Gurus – approved of and ate meat</span></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Hukamnama of 6th and 10th Masters.</span></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Vegetarian Bhagats, Sadhu’s, Sant’s and Sangat are merely Vaishnav Hindu’s</span></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Jhatka meat is approved</span></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><em>Maas</em></span><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><em> maas kar moorakh jhagrhay</em></span></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><em>Final Thoughts</em></span></li> </ul><p></p><p><strong><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">1. Mistranslation and Misinterpretation of the SGGS.</span></strong></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Firstly to save retyping everything please reference what Randip Ji has included on page1 (points 1 to 7 in red at the top).</span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Who is doing the Mistranslation or Misinterpretation – the people you refer to or you yourself. To me there is one clear message in there – do not kill to eat and being <u>veggie alone</u> will not bring union with Akal. Without Naam your being vegetarian will be no good.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">You have explained your interpretation of those shabads – so obviously you must be right and everyone else must be wrong..?</span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">2. <strong>Flesh of Animal is the same as the flesh from vegetation</strong></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">I have touched on this in a previous post. I have not denied that there is life in vegetables as well as animals. Nor do I deny that killing life is sometimes necessary and/or unavoidable. Nor do I deny my own senses. Akal’s creation is limitless and in-describable.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">The animals <u>you choose to kill merely for food</u> are undeniably created with senses similar to our own. Therefore we can understand to an extent the cruelty there is in slaughtering it (in whichever manner Halal, Jhatka etc). Just as we can understand how cruel some rulers in India were when they slaughtered the Guru’s Sikh’s.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Akal has made it known that there is life in all. However he has made us only able to comprehend (to our limited ability) the suffering of animals rather than vegetation (unless you claim to be able to see that Randip Ji,)</span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">The Guru’s and Waheguru’s Bhagat’s were above us – they by the grace of God had that ability, not us mere men.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">The Guru taught us to acknowledge many things of the Lords illusion – but when did he teach us to deny that part of the illusion that we can clearly see..? In fact, did they not teach us that to renounce that which the Lord put before us would be akin to renouncing the Lord..?</span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Thereby we <u>must</u> acknowledge that before us as well as accept the that things happen that we cannot see or comprehend but can do nothing about as I need vegetation to survive, I do not need animal meat to survive.</span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Alternatively if you are gifted enough to see that there is as much suffering when you kill vegetation for food as there is when you kill animals for food – perhaps you should not eat the flesh of plants or the flesh of animals.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">OR, if all flesh is the same – please kill me and serve me up. However, don’t forget to do Bhog before digging in.</span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p><strong><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">3. Approval from other authors</span></strong></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Apologies – but I have no interest in what your meat eating 2 a penny authors have to say in their 2 a penny books just to try and justify there own eating habbits.</span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p><strong><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">4. Sikhs in History ate meat</span></strong></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">The examples you cite are from after the human lives of our Gurus. However, I do not deny that some Sikhs ate meat during the Guru’s time as well as after it.</span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">However a lot of the pro-meat group states that it occurred during the time of the Guru – and site specific examples in war times when other food had ran out. E.g. Most of this refers to the siege of Anandpur.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">During this siege the Guru his Sikhs and his family were cut off from food for 9months. It was suggested that Sikh’s under this incredible hardship were forced to eat meat. I don’t necessarily agree that they did – but let us for a moment assume that they did (excluding Guru Ji). They went hungry for nine months and they were fighting for the very survival of Sikhi and were therefore forced to eat what they could in order to keep their strength in the face of the enemy.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Tell me – do you go without for even a day..? What war for mankind are you waging..?</span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">It seems meat eating Sikhs thereafter have used that as justification for there habit. </span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p><strong><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">5. The Gurus – approved of and ate meat</span></strong></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">The Gurus had previously merged with the Akal. They were one with the Akal when He sent them to teach us.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">You cannot understand their actions any more than you can understand Akal (Sochi Soch na Hovai je Sohci Lakh War). It is people like you who think the Guru merely enacted a theatre play at the birth of the Khalsa by killing goats rather than taking the heads of the Panj Pyare.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Yes, the some of the Gurus did hunt – but don’t for one second bring the Guru down to your level and say they did it in order to eat (when was there ever a shortage in Guru Ka Langar). You cannot understand their reasons for they were one with Akal. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">They did it for a higher purpose under hukam from Akal. They did it to eliminate animals that were threatening Sangat or they did it (up-to-the point of the actual kill) for training.</span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Let us for one moment assume you are right and the Guru’s killed and then ate for food.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">The Gurus were our teachers. They taught us many things but above all practised what they taught. Gurus taught us to be above this, to control our emotions and urges if we were to develop spiritually. Something we often find difficult.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">For example. Kirt Karna, Naam Japna, Vand Shakna.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">The Guru’s believed so greatly in Vand Shakna that they formalised it and institutionalised Langar in Sikhi. The Guru would therefore have had ALL of their meals as part of, or prepared from Guru ka Langar. Langar, even by your own admission has always and will always be vegetarian (and Guru Ji defined that vegetarianism as NOT the flesh of killed animals) – therefore the Guru’s <strong><u>NEVER</u></strong> ate meat.</span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p><strong><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">6. Hukamnama of 6th and 10th Masters.</span></strong></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Why do you so easily readily dismiss the Hukamnama of 6th Master. Does it contradict your desires...? Are we above the consequences if you are wrong..?</span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">If as I believe it is genuine - it would apply to all Sikh – then and now.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">The Hukam of 10th master for Sikhs in a Muslim land where Kuttha would generally be the only meat available does NOT contradict this in any way. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Note: The Shabad you quote does not clearly define Kuttha only as ritually slaughtered meat.</span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p><strong><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">7. Vegetarian Bhagats, Sadhu’s, Sant’s and Sangat are merely Vaishnav Hindu’s</span></strong></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">The Bhagats were great souls you were at one with the Akal. Why do you dismiss them so readily, is your gyan greater than theirs..? Has Waheguru communicated through them, or do you have that connection..? You are happy to misinterpret the Shabads of Kabir Ji – but you forget that after all is said and done (e.g not plucking flowers etc), he was a vegetarian. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Why do you ignore the other Bhagats in the SGGS..? For example do you forget the reasons why Bhagat Sadhna became vegetarian and become Akal Bhagat..? What food did Bhagat Dhana ask Akal to provide him with..? etc etc</span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">You accuse contemporary Khalsa Sadhu’s, Sants (not the type who write books etc) as being Hindu vaishnavs. I don’t know how many Sadhu’s & Sants you have met – but the majority I have met have had no agenda other than Waheguru Jaap and Sangat Seva. Some of these Sant Sadhus have performed maha tapasia and seva. They are Guru das – and a lot closer to Waheguru than I am. There are a few even, who our Guru’s still communicate through to Gurmukh Sangat today (although most manmukh will deny this).</span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Yet if these Guru sevadars say you should not kill animals for food – you much like other academic manmukhs say they must be Hindu Vaishavs..!</span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p><strong><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">8. Jhatka meat is approved</span></strong></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Here none of you have a problem in identifying Jhatka meat as meat of an animal rather than vegetable. Your argument that vegetables are chopped quickly is irrelevant as that is not always the case. Nor are you enlightened enough to understand Time. Besides even you quote Shabad from p143 of the SGGS with regards to what the sugar cane experiences AFTER it is cut down.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">You say Jhatka is approved over other meats as it is not sacrificial but killed in a certain way. Sacrificial e.g. Halal generally means that at kill time animal is offered to appease God before consumption. </span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">So what is the difference between that and offering meat to God for blessing after it is killed? A Sikh should offer all food for Bhog (or at least say a prayer over it) before consumption.</span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p><strong><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><em>9. Maas maas kar moorakh jhagrhay.</em></span></span></strong></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">You have interpreted the Shabad in your way. I would offer my humble thoughts on that. However, I DO NOT like to do this for who am I to interpret Shabad for others – therefore I will offer an interpretation by another person which I agree with.</span></p><p> </p><p><em><span style="color: red"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">deeper study of the whole hymn brings out:</span></span></em></p><p> </p><p><em><span style="color: red"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Herein, Guru Sahib is addressing a Vaishnav Pandit who believes that he can achieve his spiritual goal only by avoiding meat as food and not trying to obtain the true wisdom through meditation. Guru Ji has stressed that only avoiding meat will not lead one to the achievement of Spiritual Bliss if one does not do Naam-Simran. This equally applies to all, including non-meat-eating Sikhs. </span></span></em></p><p> </p><p><em><span style="color: red"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">It relates to the flesh or meat in general and not to any particular type of flesh - whether prepared by Halaal or Jhatka method. The Sikh supporters of flesh eating do not accept at all the intake of all types of meat, but according to them, only Jhatka meat is permissible and Halaal is totally prohibited. In other words, what does the term "Kuthha" denote? </span></span></em></p><p> </p><p><em><span style="color: red"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">The flesh of the mother's womb wherein the human body is born, the flesh of the mother's breasts which feed the infant, the flesh of the tongue, ears, mouth, etc., used for perception of various senses of the body, the flesh in the form of wife and off-springs referred to in the Shabad, is flesh no doubt and one cannot escape it, but is it the flesh to be eaten as food by the humans? Does the love for this type of flesh involve any cruelty or slaughter of living bodies? Obviously, the Shabad has a deeper meaning telling Vaishnav pandits that merely escaping from the flesh does not take one anywhere. Nor can anyone get rid of the flesh (i.e., attainment of salvation from the cycle of birth and death) by his own futile efforts without the Grace of the True Guru.</span></span></em></p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p><strong><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">11. Final Thoughts</span></strong></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">My very first post on this thread stated. </span></p><p><em><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">I am a fool for writing these comments, just as you are a fool for writing the original article. For I will not change your outlook on the issue just as though you will never change mine.</span></span></em></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Personally I don’t give a hoot if you eat non-veg food. If I wrote a list of a million things I care about, your diet would still not feature.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">What I do care about though is when academic manmukhs like you try to propagate your personal brand of Sikhi to the sangat.</span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Have you given the smallest, slightest most miniscule passing thought to the possibility that you may be wrong..? Even if there was a 1 in 10billion chance that you may be mistaken about non-veg being acceptable – is that a risk you are willing to take..?</span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Surely as for the vast majority of us meat avoidance is viable and non-veg food is NOTHING BUT an option for you – would you not rather tread the line of caution..?</span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Anyway – like I said at the start, I will not be posting any more reply’s on this thread. Goodbye for now (until we meet on another thread).</span></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="hchohan, post: 49168, member: 4082"] [FONT=Arial]Hello again[/FONT] [FONT=Arial]Sorry I have been off this thread for a while (busy weekend) – however I managed to grab two hours this evening. There seem to be an overwhelming number of replies that it would take me too long to reply to them all. Even if I did I feel we would be going round in circles as people are just intent to find the smallest faults and apply the maximum spin to the words of this simple Sikh.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial]Therefore I try my very hardest to make this my last post on this particular thread. However where previously I have only shared some of my own feelings on the issue – instead I humbly endeavour (with my limited knowledge) to reply directly to the issues raised by Randip Ji as the author of the original article. You can then make play of my words to your hearts content for after this you will have lost my attention.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial]Firstly to summarise the points Ranjit has made:[/FONT] [LIST] [*][FONT=Arial]Mistranslation and Mis-interpretation of the SGGS.[/FONT] [*][FONT=Arial]Flesh of Animal is the same as the flesh from vegetation.[/FONT] [*][FONT=Arial]Approval from other authors [/FONT] [*][FONT=Arial]Sikhs in History ate meat[/FONT] [*][FONT=Arial]The Gurus – approved of and ate meat[/FONT] [*][FONT=Arial]Hukamnama of 6th and 10th Masters.[/FONT] [*][FONT=Arial]Vegetarian Bhagats, Sadhu’s, Sant’s and Sangat are merely Vaishnav Hindu’s[/FONT] [*][FONT=Arial]Jhatka meat is approved[/FONT] [*][FONT=Arial][I]Maas[/I][/FONT][FONT=Arial][I] maas kar moorakh jhagrhay[/I][/FONT] [*][FONT=Arial][I]Final Thoughts[/I][/FONT][/LIST] [B][FONT=Arial]1. Mistranslation and Misinterpretation of the SGGS.[/FONT][/B] [FONT=Arial]Firstly to save retyping everything please reference what Randip Ji has included on page1 (points 1 to 7 in red at the top).[/FONT] [FONT=Arial]Who is doing the Mistranslation or Misinterpretation – the people you refer to or you yourself. To me there is one clear message in there – do not kill to eat and being [U]veggie alone[/U] will not bring union with Akal. Without Naam your being vegetarian will be no good.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial]You have explained your interpretation of those shabads – so obviously you must be right and everyone else must be wrong..?[/FONT] [FONT=Arial]2. [B]Flesh of Animal is the same as the flesh from vegetation[/B][/FONT] [FONT=Arial]I have touched on this in a previous post. I have not denied that there is life in vegetables as well as animals. Nor do I deny that killing life is sometimes necessary and/or unavoidable. Nor do I deny my own senses. Akal’s creation is limitless and in-describable.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial]The animals [U]you choose to kill merely for food[/U] are undeniably created with senses similar to our own. Therefore we can understand to an extent the cruelty there is in slaughtering it (in whichever manner Halal, Jhatka etc). Just as we can understand how cruel some rulers in India were when they slaughtered the Guru’s Sikh’s.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial]Akal has made it known that there is life in all. However he has made us only able to comprehend (to our limited ability) the suffering of animals rather than vegetation (unless you claim to be able to see that Randip Ji,)[/FONT] [FONT=Arial]The Guru’s and Waheguru’s Bhagat’s were above us – they by the grace of God had that ability, not us mere men.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial]The Guru taught us to acknowledge many things of the Lords illusion – but when did he teach us to deny that part of the illusion that we can clearly see..? In fact, did they not teach us that to renounce that which the Lord put before us would be akin to renouncing the Lord..?[/FONT] [FONT=Arial]Thereby we [U]must[/U] acknowledge that before us as well as accept the that things happen that we cannot see or comprehend but can do nothing about as I need vegetation to survive, I do not need animal meat to survive.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial]Alternatively if you are gifted enough to see that there is as much suffering when you kill vegetation for food as there is when you kill animals for food – perhaps you should not eat the flesh of plants or the flesh of animals.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial]OR, if all flesh is the same – please kill me and serve me up. However, don’t forget to do Bhog before digging in.[/FONT] [B][FONT=Arial]3. Approval from other authors[/FONT][/B] [FONT=Arial]Apologies – but I have no interest in what your meat eating 2 a penny authors have to say in their 2 a penny books just to try and justify there own eating habbits.[/FONT] [B][FONT=Arial]4. Sikhs in History ate meat[/FONT][/B] [FONT=Arial]The examples you cite are from after the human lives of our Gurus. However, I do not deny that some Sikhs ate meat during the Guru’s time as well as after it.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial]However a lot of the pro-meat group states that it occurred during the time of the Guru – and site specific examples in war times when other food had ran out. E.g. Most of this refers to the siege of Anandpur.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial]During this siege the Guru his Sikhs and his family were cut off from food for 9months. It was suggested that Sikh’s under this incredible hardship were forced to eat meat. I don’t necessarily agree that they did – but let us for a moment assume that they did (excluding Guru Ji). They went hungry for nine months and they were fighting for the very survival of Sikhi and were therefore forced to eat what they could in order to keep their strength in the face of the enemy.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial]Tell me – do you go without for even a day..? What war for mankind are you waging..?[/FONT] [FONT=Arial]It seems meat eating Sikhs thereafter have used that as justification for there habit. [/FONT] [B][FONT=Arial]5. The Gurus – approved of and ate meat[/FONT][/B] [FONT=Arial]The Gurus had previously merged with the Akal. They were one with the Akal when He sent them to teach us.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial]You cannot understand their actions any more than you can understand Akal (Sochi Soch na Hovai je Sohci Lakh War). It is people like you who think the Guru merely enacted a theatre play at the birth of the Khalsa by killing goats rather than taking the heads of the Panj Pyare.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial]Yes, the some of the Gurus did hunt – but don’t for one second bring the Guru down to your level and say they did it in order to eat (when was there ever a shortage in Guru Ka Langar). You cannot understand their reasons for they were one with Akal. [/FONT] [FONT=Arial]They did it for a higher purpose under hukam from Akal. They did it to eliminate animals that were threatening Sangat or they did it (up-to-the point of the actual kill) for training.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial]Let us for one moment assume you are right and the Guru’s killed and then ate for food.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial]The Gurus were our teachers. They taught us many things but above all practised what they taught. Gurus taught us to be above this, to control our emotions and urges if we were to develop spiritually. Something we often find difficult.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial]For example. Kirt Karna, Naam Japna, Vand Shakna.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial]The Guru’s believed so greatly in Vand Shakna that they formalised it and institutionalised Langar in Sikhi. The Guru would therefore have had ALL of their meals as part of, or prepared from Guru ka Langar. Langar, even by your own admission has always and will always be vegetarian (and Guru Ji defined that vegetarianism as NOT the flesh of killed animals) – therefore the Guru’s [B][U]NEVER[/U][/B] ate meat.[/FONT] [B][FONT=Arial]6. Hukamnama of 6th and 10th Masters.[/FONT][/B] [FONT=Arial]Why do you so easily readily dismiss the Hukamnama of 6th Master. Does it contradict your desires...? Are we above the consequences if you are wrong..?[/FONT] [FONT=Arial]If as I believe it is genuine - it would apply to all Sikh – then and now.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial]The Hukam of 10th master for Sikhs in a Muslim land where Kuttha would generally be the only meat available does NOT contradict this in any way. [/FONT] [FONT=Arial]Note: The Shabad you quote does not clearly define Kuttha only as ritually slaughtered meat.[/FONT] [B][FONT=Arial]7. Vegetarian Bhagats, Sadhu’s, Sant’s and Sangat are merely Vaishnav Hindu’s[/FONT][/B] [FONT=Arial]The Bhagats were great souls you were at one with the Akal. Why do you dismiss them so readily, is your gyan greater than theirs..? Has Waheguru communicated through them, or do you have that connection..? You are happy to misinterpret the Shabads of Kabir Ji – but you forget that after all is said and done (e.g not plucking flowers etc), he was a vegetarian. [/FONT] [FONT=Arial]Why do you ignore the other Bhagats in the SGGS..? For example do you forget the reasons why Bhagat Sadhna became vegetarian and become Akal Bhagat..? What food did Bhagat Dhana ask Akal to provide him with..? etc etc[/FONT] [FONT=Arial]You accuse contemporary Khalsa Sadhu’s, Sants (not the type who write books etc) as being Hindu vaishnavs. I don’t know how many Sadhu’s & Sants you have met – but the majority I have met have had no agenda other than Waheguru Jaap and Sangat Seva. Some of these Sant Sadhus have performed maha tapasia and seva. They are Guru das – and a lot closer to Waheguru than I am. There are a few even, who our Guru’s still communicate through to Gurmukh Sangat today (although most manmukh will deny this).[/FONT] [FONT=Arial]Yet if these Guru sevadars say you should not kill animals for food – you much like other academic manmukhs say they must be Hindu Vaishavs..![/FONT] [B][FONT=Arial]8. Jhatka meat is approved[/FONT][/B] [FONT=Arial]Here none of you have a problem in identifying Jhatka meat as meat of an animal rather than vegetable. Your argument that vegetables are chopped quickly is irrelevant as that is not always the case. Nor are you enlightened enough to understand Time. Besides even you quote Shabad from p143 of the SGGS with regards to what the sugar cane experiences AFTER it is cut down.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial]You say Jhatka is approved over other meats as it is not sacrificial but killed in a certain way. Sacrificial e.g. Halal generally means that at kill time animal is offered to appease God before consumption. [/FONT] [FONT=Arial]So what is the difference between that and offering meat to God for blessing after it is killed? A Sikh should offer all food for Bhog (or at least say a prayer over it) before consumption.[/FONT] [B][COLOR=black][FONT=Arial][I]9. Maas maas kar moorakh jhagrhay.[/I][/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [FONT=Arial]You have interpreted the Shabad in your way. I would offer my humble thoughts on that. However, I DO NOT like to do this for who am I to interpret Shabad for others – therefore I will offer an interpretation by another person which I agree with.[/FONT] [I][COLOR=red][FONT=Arial]deeper study of the whole hymn brings out:[/FONT][/COLOR][/I] [I][COLOR=red][FONT=Arial]Herein, Guru Sahib is addressing a Vaishnav Pandit who believes that he can achieve his spiritual goal only by avoiding meat as food and not trying to obtain the true wisdom through meditation. Guru Ji has stressed that only avoiding meat will not lead one to the achievement of Spiritual Bliss if one does not do Naam-Simran. This equally applies to all, including non-meat-eating Sikhs. [/FONT][/COLOR][/I] [I][COLOR=red][FONT=Arial]It relates to the flesh or meat in general and not to any particular type of flesh - whether prepared by Halaal or Jhatka method. The Sikh supporters of flesh eating do not accept at all the intake of all types of meat, but according to them, only Jhatka meat is permissible and Halaal is totally prohibited. In other words, what does the term "Kuthha" denote? [/FONT][/COLOR][/I] [I][COLOR=red][FONT=Arial]The flesh of the mother's womb wherein the human body is born, the flesh of the mother's breasts which feed the infant, the flesh of the tongue, ears, mouth, etc., used for perception of various senses of the body, the flesh in the form of wife and off-springs referred to in the Shabad, is flesh no doubt and one cannot escape it, but is it the flesh to be eaten as food by the humans? Does the love for this type of flesh involve any cruelty or slaughter of living bodies? Obviously, the Shabad has a deeper meaning telling Vaishnav pandits that merely escaping from the flesh does not take one anywhere. Nor can anyone get rid of the flesh (i.e., attainment of salvation from the cycle of birth and death) by his own futile efforts without the Grace of the True Guru.[/FONT][/COLOR][/I] [I][FONT=Arial][/FONT][/I] [B][FONT=Arial]11. Final Thoughts[/FONT][/B] [FONT=Arial]My very first post on this thread stated. [/FONT] [I][COLOR=black][FONT=Arial]I am a fool for writing these comments, just as you are a fool for writing the original article. For I will not change your outlook on the issue just as though you will never change mine.[/FONT][/COLOR][/I] [FONT=Arial]Personally I don’t give a hoot if you eat non-veg food. If I wrote a list of a million things I care about, your diet would still not feature.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial]What I do care about though is when academic manmukhs like you try to propagate your personal brand of Sikhi to the sangat.[/FONT] [FONT=Arial]Have you given the smallest, slightest most miniscule passing thought to the possibility that you may be wrong..? Even if there was a 1 in 10billion chance that you may be mistaken about non-veg being acceptable – is that a risk you are willing to take..?[/FONT] [FONT=Arial]Surely as for the vast majority of us meat avoidance is viable and non-veg food is NOTHING BUT an option for you – would you not rather tread the line of caution..?[/FONT] [FONT=Arial]Anyway – like I said at the start, I will not be posting any more reply’s on this thread. Goodbye for now (until we meet on another thread).[/FONT] [/QUOTE]
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