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Gurmat Vichaar
Gurmat Vichar - Discussions
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<blockquote data-quote="Tejwant Singh" data-source="post: 98293" data-attributes="member: 138"><p>Sadh Sangat,</p><p> </p><p>Let us take it easy on Dr. Virinder Singh ji and rather appreciate his contributions and dedication towards Sikhi. His write ups in this forum speak for themselves.</p><p> </p><p>First of all let us remind ourselves that we are all Sikhs- learners- students- seekers, hence not perfect.</p><p> </p><p>I am glad lots of Scholars who write here have finally woken up and come to the realisation that how the literal translations in english are misleading and distorting. I have been advocating for years that for the people who are fluent in English and know Punjabi, to express the Shabads in their own words. No one had given a hoot, until very, very recently. But in the same token, the same scholars have used the same literal translations quite often by copying and pasting from the same resources to justify and elaborate their view points in this very forum for a very long time. One can use the SEARCH icon in this forum and find the posts written in the past by them to understand what I am talking about.</p><p> </p><p>So it is unfair and dare I say, not a Sikhi way to accuse Dr. Sahib of using the same techniques that they themsleves have used without admitting that they have been in the same boat.</p><p> </p><p>As I said very recently, let us put the English translation/interpretation in our own words by keeping Prof. Sahib Singh Punjabi translation and interpretation as our benchmark.</p><p> </p><p>Those who do not understand Punjabi and find something fishy in the English versions on the internet are requested and urged to question them and ask the questions in the forum where things can be cleared.</p><p> </p><p>I would suggest that the Admintrators should have a permanent thread always visible on the front page with a catchy title like: <strong>Misintrepretions in English clarified.</strong></p><p> </p><p>Following are 2 interpretations of the same Shabads discussed by Dr. Virinder Singh ji and PK70 ji and one can judge for oneself.</p><p> </p><p>So once again, let people stop throwing sling shots at others about the wrong/incorrect interpretations because they have been practicing the same.</p><p> </p><p>Let us make this forum the TRUE LEARNING CENTER of SIKH PHILOSOPHY.</p><p> </p><p>No intentions to hurt anyone's feelings. I apologise if someone may feel that way.</p><p> </p><p>Tejwant Singh</p><p> </p><p><strong>SGGs page 658-659</strong></p><p> </p><p><strong>Sant Singh Khlasa</strong></p><p> </p><p><strong>ਜਉ ਤੁਮ ਗਿਰਿਵਰ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਮੋਰਾ ॥ </strong></p><p><strong>Ja▫o ṯum girivar ṯa▫o ham morā. </strong></p><p><strong>If You are the mountain, Lord, then I am the pea{censored}. </strong></p><p> </p><p><strong>ਜਉ ਤੁਮ ਚੰਦ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਭਏ ਹੈ ਚਕੋਰਾ ॥੧॥ </strong></p><p><strong>Ja▫o ṯum cẖanḏ ṯa▫o ham bẖa▫e hai cẖakorā. ||1|| </strong></p><p><strong>If You are the moon, then I am the partridge in love with it. ||1|| </strong></p><p> </p><p><strong>ਮਾਧਵੇ ਤੁਮ ਨ ਤੋਰਹੁ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਨਹੀ ਤੋਰਹਿ ॥ </strong></p><p><strong>Māḏẖve ṯum na ṯorahu ṯa▫o ham nahī ṯorėh. </strong></p><p><strong>O Lord, if You will not break with me, then I will not break with You. </strong></p><p> </p><p><strong>ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਤੋਰਿ ਕਵਨ ਸਿਉ ਜੋਰਹਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ </strong></p><p><strong>Ŧum si▫o ṯor kavan si▫o jorėh. ||1|| rahā▫o. </strong></p><p><strong>For, if I were to break with You, with whom would I then join? ||1||Pause|| </strong></p><p> </p><p><strong>ਜਉ ਤੁਮ ਦੀਵਰਾ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਬਾਤੀ ॥ </strong></p><p><strong>Ja▫o ṯum ḏīvrā ṯa▫o ham bāṯī. </strong></p><p><strong>If You are the lamp, then I am the wick. </strong></p><p> </p><p><strong>ਜਉ ਤੁਮ ਤੀਰਥ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਜਾਤੀ ॥੨॥ </strong></p><p><strong>Ja▫o ṯum ṯirath ṯa▫o ham jāṯī. ||2|| </strong></p><p><strong>If You are the sacred place of pilgrimage, then I am the pilgrim. ||2|| </strong></p><p> </p><p><strong>ਸਾਚੀ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਹਮ ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਜੋਰੀ ॥ </strong></p><p><strong>Sācẖī parīṯ ham ṯum si▫o jorī. </strong></p><p><strong>I am joined in true love with You, Lord. </strong></p><p> </p><p><strong>ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਜੋਰਿ ਅਵਰ ਸੰਗਿ ਤੋਰੀ ॥੩॥ </strong></p><p><strong>Ŧum si▫o jor avar sang ṯorī. ||3|| </strong></p><p><strong>I am joined with You, and I have broken with all others. ||3|| </strong></p><p> </p><p><strong>ਜਹ ਜਹ ਜਾਉ ਤਹਾ ਤੇਰੀ ਸੇਵਾ ॥ </strong></p><p><strong>Jah jah jā▫o ṯahā ṯerī sevā. </strong></p><p><strong>Wherever I go, there I serve You. </strong></p><p> </p><p><strong>ਤੁਮ ਸੋ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਅਉਰੁ ਨ ਦੇਵਾ ॥੪॥ </strong></p><p><strong>Ŧum so ṯẖākur a▫or na ḏevā. ||4|| </strong></p><p><strong>There is no other Lord Master than You, O Divine Lord. ||4|| </strong></p><p> </p><p><strong>ਤੁਮਰੇ ਭਜਨ ਕਟਹਿ ਜਮ ਫਾਂਸਾ ॥ </strong></p><p><strong>Ŧumre bẖajan katėh jam fāʼnsā. </strong></p><p><strong>Meditating, vibrating upon You, the noose of death is cut away. </strong></p><p> </p><p><strong>ਭਗਤਿ ਹੇਤ ਗਾਵੈ ਰਵਿਦਾਸਾ ॥੫॥੫॥ </strong></p><p><strong>Bẖagaṯ heṯ gāvai Raviḏāsā. ||5||5|| </strong></p><p><strong>To attain devotional worship, Ravi Daas sings to You, Lord. ||5||5|| </strong></p><p> </p><p><strong>Bhai Manmohan Singh ji</strong></p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p><strong>ਜਉ ਤੁਮ ਗਿਰਿਵਰ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਮੋਰਾ ॥ </strong></p><p><strong>Ja▫o ṯum girivar ṯa▫o ham morā. </strong></p><p><strong>If thou art a mountain, then I am thy pea{censored}, O Lord. </strong></p><p> </p><p><strong>ਜਉ ਤੁਮ ਚੰਦ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਭਏ ਹੈ ਚਕੋਰਾ ॥੧॥ </strong></p><p><strong>Ja▫o ṯum cẖanḏ ṯa▫o ham bẖa▫e hai cẖakorā. ||1|| </strong></p><p><strong>If Thou art the moon, then I am thine red-legged partridge. </strong></p><p> </p><p><strong>ਮਾਧਵੇ ਤੁਮ ਨ ਤੋਰਹੁ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਨਹੀ ਤੋਰਹਿ ॥ </strong></p><p><strong>Māḏẖve ṯum na ṯorahu ṯa▫o ham nahī ṯorėh. </strong></p><p><strong>O Lord of wealth, if Thou breakest not with me, then I will not break with Thee. </strong></p><p> </p><p><strong>ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਤੋਰਿ ਕਵਨ ਸਿਉ ਜੋਰਹਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ </strong></p><p><strong>Ŧum si▫o ṯor kavan si▫o jorėh. ||1|| rahā▫o. </strong></p><p><strong>For, If I break with Thee, with whom else shall I join? Pause. </strong></p><p> </p><p><strong>ਜਉ ਤੁਮ ਦੀਵਰਾ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਬਾਤੀ ॥ </strong></p><p><strong>Ja▫o ṯum ḏīvrā ṯa▫o ham bāṯī. </strong></p><p><strong>If Thou art an earthen lamp, then I am Thy wick. </strong></p><p> </p><p><strong>ਜਉ ਤੁਮ ਤੀਰਥ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਜਾਤੀ ॥੨॥ </strong></p><p><strong>Ja▫o ṯum ṯirath ṯa▫o ham jāṯī. ||2|| </strong></p><p><strong>If thou art a place of pilgrimage, then I am Thine pilgrim. </strong></p><p> </p><p><strong>ਸਾਚੀ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਹਮ ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਜੋਰੀ ॥ </strong></p><p><strong>Sācẖī parīṯ ham ṯum si▫o jorī. </strong></p><p><strong>True love I have joined with Thee, O Lord. </strong></p><p> </p><p><strong>ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਜੋਰਿ ਅਵਰ ਸੰਗਿ ਤੋਰੀ ॥੩॥ </strong></p><p><strong>Ŧum si▫o jor avar sang ṯorī. ||3|| </strong></p><p><strong>Attaching myself to Thee, I have broken with all others. </strong></p><p> </p><p><strong>ਜਹ ਜਹ ਜਾਉ ਤਹਾ ਤੇਰੀ ਸੇਵਾ ॥ </strong></p><p><strong>Jah jah jā▫o ṯahā ṯerī sevā. </strong></p><p><strong>Wither-so-ever I go, thither I perform Thine service. </strong></p><p> </p><p><strong>ਤੁਮ ਸੋ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਅਉਰੁ ਨ ਦੇਵਾ ॥੪॥ </strong></p><p><strong>Ŧum so ṯẖākur a▫or na ḏevā. ||4|| </strong></p><p><strong>There is no other Lord, like Thee, O God. </strong></p><p> </p><p><strong>ਤੁਮਰੇ ਭਜਨ ਕਟਹਿ ਜਮ ਫਾਂਸਾ ॥ </strong></p><p><strong>Ŧumre bẖajan katėh jam fāʼnsā. </strong></p><p><strong>By Thy meditation, death's noose is cut away. </strong></p><p> </p><p><strong>ਭਗਤਿ ਹੇਤ ਗਾਵੈ ਰਵਿਦਾਸਾ ॥੫॥੫॥ </strong></p><p><strong>Bẖagaṯ heṯ gāvai Raviḏāsā. ||5||5|| </strong></p><p><strong>To obtain Thine devotional service, O Lord, Ravi Dass sings Thy praise. </strong></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tejwant Singh, post: 98293, member: 138"] Sadh Sangat, Let us take it easy on Dr. Virinder Singh ji and rather appreciate his contributions and dedication towards Sikhi. His write ups in this forum speak for themselves. First of all let us remind ourselves that we are all Sikhs- learners- students- seekers, hence not perfect. I am glad lots of Scholars who write here have finally woken up and come to the realisation that how the literal translations in english are misleading and distorting. I have been advocating for years that for the people who are fluent in English and know Punjabi, to express the Shabads in their own words. No one had given a hoot, until very, very recently. But in the same token, the same scholars have used the same literal translations quite often by copying and pasting from the same resources to justify and elaborate their view points in this very forum for a very long time. One can use the SEARCH icon in this forum and find the posts written in the past by them to understand what I am talking about. So it is unfair and dare I say, not a Sikhi way to accuse Dr. Sahib of using the same techniques that they themsleves have used without admitting that they have been in the same boat. As I said very recently, let us put the English translation/interpretation in our own words by keeping Prof. Sahib Singh Punjabi translation and interpretation as our benchmark. Those who do not understand Punjabi and find something fishy in the English versions on the internet are requested and urged to question them and ask the questions in the forum where things can be cleared. I would suggest that the Admintrators should have a permanent thread always visible on the front page with a catchy title like: [B]Misintrepretions in English clarified.[/B] Following are 2 interpretations of the same Shabads discussed by Dr. Virinder Singh ji and PK70 ji and one can judge for oneself. So once again, let people stop throwing sling shots at others about the wrong/incorrect interpretations because they have been practicing the same. Let us make this forum the TRUE LEARNING CENTER of SIKH PHILOSOPHY. No intentions to hurt anyone's feelings. I apologise if someone may feel that way. Tejwant Singh [B]SGGs page 658-659[/B] [B]Sant Singh Khlasa[/B] [B]ਜਉ ਤੁਮ ਗਿਰਿਵਰ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਮੋਰਾ ॥ [/B] [B]Ja▫o ṯum girivar ṯa▫o ham morā. [/B] [B]If You are the mountain, Lord, then I am the pea{censored}. [/B] [B]ਜਉ ਤੁਮ ਚੰਦ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਭਏ ਹੈ ਚਕੋਰਾ ॥੧॥ [/B] [B]Ja▫o ṯum cẖanḏ ṯa▫o ham bẖa▫e hai cẖakorā. ||1|| [/B] [B]If You are the moon, then I am the partridge in love with it. ||1|| [/B] [B]ਮਾਧਵੇ ਤੁਮ ਨ ਤੋਰਹੁ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਨਹੀ ਤੋਰਹਿ ॥ [/B] [B]Māḏẖve ṯum na ṯorahu ṯa▫o ham nahī ṯorėh. [/B] [B]O Lord, if You will not break with me, then I will not break with You. [/B] [B]ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਤੋਰਿ ਕਵਨ ਸਿਉ ਜੋਰਹਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ [/B] [B]Ŧum si▫o ṯor kavan si▫o jorėh. ||1|| rahā▫o. [/B] [B]For, if I were to break with You, with whom would I then join? ||1||Pause|| [/B] [B]ਜਉ ਤੁਮ ਦੀਵਰਾ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਬਾਤੀ ॥ [/B] [B]Ja▫o ṯum ḏīvrā ṯa▫o ham bāṯī. [/B] [B]If You are the lamp, then I am the wick. [/B] [B]ਜਉ ਤੁਮ ਤੀਰਥ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਜਾਤੀ ॥੨॥ [/B] [B]Ja▫o ṯum ṯirath ṯa▫o ham jāṯī. ||2|| [/B] [B]If You are the sacred place of pilgrimage, then I am the pilgrim. ||2|| [/B] [B]ਸਾਚੀ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਹਮ ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਜੋਰੀ ॥ [/B] [B]Sācẖī parīṯ ham ṯum si▫o jorī. [/B] [B]I am joined in true love with You, Lord. [/B] [B]ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਜੋਰਿ ਅਵਰ ਸੰਗਿ ਤੋਰੀ ॥੩॥ [/B] [B]Ŧum si▫o jor avar sang ṯorī. ||3|| [/B] [B]I am joined with You, and I have broken with all others. ||3|| [/B] [B]ਜਹ ਜਹ ਜਾਉ ਤਹਾ ਤੇਰੀ ਸੇਵਾ ॥ [/B] [B]Jah jah jā▫o ṯahā ṯerī sevā. [/B] [B]Wherever I go, there I serve You. [/B] [B]ਤੁਮ ਸੋ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਅਉਰੁ ਨ ਦੇਵਾ ॥੪॥ [/B] [B]Ŧum so ṯẖākur a▫or na ḏevā. ||4|| [/B] [B]There is no other Lord Master than You, O Divine Lord. ||4|| [/B] [B]ਤੁਮਰੇ ਭਜਨ ਕਟਹਿ ਜਮ ਫਾਂਸਾ ॥ [/B] [B]Ŧumre bẖajan katėh jam fāʼnsā. [/B] [B]Meditating, vibrating upon You, the noose of death is cut away. [/B] [B]ਭਗਤਿ ਹੇਤ ਗਾਵੈ ਰਵਿਦਾਸਾ ॥੫॥੫॥ [/B] [B]Bẖagaṯ heṯ gāvai Raviḏāsā. ||5||5|| [/B] [B]To attain devotional worship, Ravi Daas sings to You, Lord. ||5||5|| [/B] [B]Bhai Manmohan Singh ji[/B] [B]ਜਉ ਤੁਮ ਗਿਰਿਵਰ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਮੋਰਾ ॥ [/B] [B]Ja▫o ṯum girivar ṯa▫o ham morā. [/B] [B]If thou art a mountain, then I am thy pea{censored}, O Lord. [/B] [B]ਜਉ ਤੁਮ ਚੰਦ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਭਏ ਹੈ ਚਕੋਰਾ ॥੧॥ [/B] [B]Ja▫o ṯum cẖanḏ ṯa▫o ham bẖa▫e hai cẖakorā. ||1|| [/B] [B]If Thou art the moon, then I am thine red-legged partridge. [/B] [B]ਮਾਧਵੇ ਤੁਮ ਨ ਤੋਰਹੁ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਨਹੀ ਤੋਰਹਿ ॥ [/B] [B]Māḏẖve ṯum na ṯorahu ṯa▫o ham nahī ṯorėh. [/B] [B]O Lord of wealth, if Thou breakest not with me, then I will not break with Thee. [/B] [B]ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਤੋਰਿ ਕਵਨ ਸਿਉ ਜੋਰਹਿ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ [/B] [B]Ŧum si▫o ṯor kavan si▫o jorėh. ||1|| rahā▫o. [/B] [B]For, If I break with Thee, with whom else shall I join? Pause. [/B] [B]ਜਉ ਤੁਮ ਦੀਵਰਾ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਬਾਤੀ ॥ [/B] [B]Ja▫o ṯum ḏīvrā ṯa▫o ham bāṯī. [/B] [B]If Thou art an earthen lamp, then I am Thy wick. [/B] [B]ਜਉ ਤੁਮ ਤੀਰਥ ਤਉ ਹਮ ਜਾਤੀ ॥੨॥ [/B] [B]Ja▫o ṯum ṯirath ṯa▫o ham jāṯī. ||2|| [/B] [B]If thou art a place of pilgrimage, then I am Thine pilgrim. [/B] [B]ਸਾਚੀ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਹਮ ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਜੋਰੀ ॥ [/B] [B]Sācẖī parīṯ ham ṯum si▫o jorī. [/B] [B]True love I have joined with Thee, O Lord. [/B] [B]ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਜੋਰਿ ਅਵਰ ਸੰਗਿ ਤੋਰੀ ॥੩॥ [/B] [B]Ŧum si▫o jor avar sang ṯorī. ||3|| [/B] [B]Attaching myself to Thee, I have broken with all others. [/B] [B]ਜਹ ਜਹ ਜਾਉ ਤਹਾ ਤੇਰੀ ਸੇਵਾ ॥ [/B] [B]Jah jah jā▫o ṯahā ṯerī sevā. [/B] [B]Wither-so-ever I go, thither I perform Thine service. [/B] [B]ਤੁਮ ਸੋ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਅਉਰੁ ਨ ਦੇਵਾ ॥੪॥ [/B] [B]Ŧum so ṯẖākur a▫or na ḏevā. ||4|| [/B] [B]There is no other Lord, like Thee, O God. [/B] [B]ਤੁਮਰੇ ਭਜਨ ਕਟਹਿ ਜਮ ਫਾਂਸਾ ॥ [/B] [B]Ŧumre bẖajan katėh jam fāʼnsā. [/B] [B]By Thy meditation, death's noose is cut away. [/B] [B]ਭਗਤਿ ਹੇਤ ਗਾਵੈ ਰਵਿਦਾਸਾ ॥੫॥੫॥ [/B] [B]Bẖagaṯ heṯ gāvai Raviḏāsā. ||5||5|| [/B] [B]To obtain Thine devotional service, O Lord, Ravi Dass sings Thy praise. [/B] [/QUOTE]
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