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Does Waheguru Intervene?
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<blockquote data-quote="Harkiran Kaur" data-source="post: 204530" data-attributes="member: 18224"><p>I am sorry Tejwant Singh Ji, no matter how many times I read this I just don't see that it can be speaking only of states of mind or as yo put it 'meism'...</p><p>Not sure if this is the whole thing or not I think it is... because another ||1|| is after this... I am still confused on how to tell where one beghins and another ends etc.</p><p> </p><p><a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਰਾਗੁ" target="_blank"><u>ਰਾਗੁ </u></a><a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਸੂਹੀ" target="_blank"><u>ਸੂਹੀ </u></a><a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਮਹਲਾ" target="_blank"><u>ਮਹਲਾ </u></a><a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=੫" target="_blank"><u>੫ </u></a><a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਘਰੁ" target="_blank"><u>ਘਰੁ </u></a>੧</p><p>रागु सूही महला ५ घरु १</p><p>Rāg sūhī mėhlā 5 gẖar 1</p><p>Raag Soohee, Fifth Mehl, First House:</p><p><a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ੴ" target="_blank"><u>ੴ </u></a><a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਸਤਿਗੁਰ" target="_blank"><u>ਸਤਿਗੁਰ </u></a><a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ" target="_blank"><u>ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ </u></a>॥</p><p>ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥</p><p>Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯgur parsāḏ.</p><p>One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:</p><p><a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਬਾਜੀਗਰਿ" target="_blank"><u>ਬਾਜੀਗਰਿ </u></a><a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਜੈਸੇ" target="_blank"><u>ਜੈਸੇ </u></a><a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਬਾਜੀ" target="_blank"><u>ਬਾਜੀ </u></a><a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਪਾਈ" target="_blank"><u>ਪਾਈ </u></a>॥</p><p>बाजीगरि जैसे बाजी पाई ॥</p><p>Bājīgar jaise bājī pā▫ī.</p><p>The actor stages the play,</p><p> </p><p><em><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 179)">(The actor, that is the one doing the acting or playing the parts, is also staging the play where they are being played. The play being spoken of is this reality and not a state of mind as we will see below).</span></em></p><p> </p><p><a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਨਾਨਾ" target="_blank"><u>ਨਾਨਾ </u></a><a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਰੂਪ" target="_blank"><u>ਰੂਪ </u></a><a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਭੇਖ" target="_blank"><u>ਭੇਖ </u></a><a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਦਿਖਲਾਈ" target="_blank"><u>ਦਿਖਲਾਈ </u></a>॥</p><p>नाना रूप भेख दिखलाई ॥</p><p>Nānā rūp bẖekẖ ḏikẖlā▫ī.</p><p>playing the many characters in different costumes;</p><p> </p><p><em><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 179)">(We are those characters. Further down it equates these characters with 'form' If it was merely speaking of meism and states of mind, then it wouldn't associate these characters to form. Instead they would be formless having only to do with the mind.)</span></em></p><p><a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਸਾਂਗੁ" target="_blank"><u>ਸਾਂਗੁ </u></a><a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਉਤਾਰਿ" target="_blank"><u>ਉਤਾਰਿ </u></a><a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਥੰਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਓ" target="_blank"><u>ਥੰਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਓ </u></a><a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਪਾਸਾਰਾ" target="_blank"><u>ਪਾਸਾਰਾ </u></a>॥</p><p>सांगु उतारि थम्हिओ पासारा ॥</p><p>Sāʼng uṯār thamiĥa▫o pāsārā.</p><p>but when the play ends, he takes off the costumes,</p><p> </p><p><em><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 179)">(When this reality ends, and 'he' stops playing the part of these characters... as in these ego identities, us. )</span></em></p><p><a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਤਬ" target="_blank"><u>ਤਬ </u></a><a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਏਕੋ" target="_blank"><u>ਏਕੋ </u></a><a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਏਕੰਕਾਰਾ" target="_blank"><u>ਏਕੰਕਾਰਾ </u></a>॥੧॥</p><p>तब एको एकंकारा ॥१॥</p><p>Ŧab eko ekankārā. ||1||</p><p>and then he is one, and only one. ||1||</p><p> </p><p><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 179)"><em>(We see that the whole time, it was really Waheguru who was playing ALL the characters... we see there is only the ONE... Ik Onkar... if it was speaking of mere states of mind, then why refer to what remains after we remove the costumes, as Ik Onkar? If it were mere states of mind and meism as you stated, then why is what remains after we remove these states of mind or meisms, still labelled Ik Onkar in this shabad?? This for me is the clincher... because if you only believe in consciousness as an emergent property and only in the physical and that this is speaking of meism and states of mind, thenits still saying by removing these states of mind, what is left is Ik Onkar!!! So even taking your explanation Tejwant Ji, these states of mind, are what we associate with US - our Ego Identity, and after we remove these Ego identities, or meisms as you call them, we still have something left... which is equated to Ik Onkar!)</em></span></p><p><a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਕਵਨ" target="_blank"><u>ਕਵਨ </u></a><a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਰੂਪ" target="_blank"><u>ਰੂਪ </u></a><a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿਓ" target="_blank"><u>ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿਓ </u></a><a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਬਿਨਸਾਇਓ" target="_blank"><u>ਬਿਨਸਾਇਓ </u></a>॥</p><p>कवन रूप द्रिसटिओ बिनसाइओ ॥</p><p>Kavan rūp ḏaristi▫o binsā▫i▫o.</p><p>How many forms and images appeared and disappeared?</p><p> </p><p><em><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 179)">(Here it is saying forms and images... again meism and states of mind are not 'form' they are not something tangible that we see but rather that we experience. So had it been speaking of mere states of mind a different descriptor would have been used but it's very clearly saying 'form'. Since you do not subscribe to the same belief as I do regarding the illusion of matter, thoughts and states of mind do not posses 'form' as they are formless abstract as thoughts and behaviours. It`s speaking of forms. And even if it`s speaking of identies as personalities or Ego or meisms, then above we are still told that in absence of them, Ik Onakr is what remains!) </span></em></p><p><a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਕਤਹਿ" target="_blank"><u>ਕਤਹਿ </u></a><a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਗਇਓ" target="_blank"><u>ਗਇਓ </u></a><a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਉਹੁ" target="_blank"><u>ਉਹੁ </u></a><a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਕਤ" target="_blank"><u>ਕਤ </u></a><a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਤੇ" target="_blank"><u>ਤੇ </u></a><a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਆਇਓ" target="_blank"><u>ਆਇਓ </u></a><a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=॥੧॥" target="_blank"><u>॥੧॥ </u></a><a href="http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਰਹਾਉ" target="_blank"><u>ਰਹਾਉ </u></a>॥</p><p>कतहि गइओ उहु कत ते आइओ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥</p><p>Kaṯėh ga▫i▫o uho kaṯ ṯe ā▫i▫o. ||1|| rahā▫o.</p><p>Where have they gone? Where did they come from? ||1||Pause||</p><p> </p><p><em><span style="color: #0000b3">(Where have these FORMS gone, and where did they come from? Again, if it were speaking of states of mind going and coming, then the line immediately preceeding it would not have referred to them as having form. And even if you somehow metaphorically equate it to meism it still asks us to ponder where did they come from? The obvious answer if it were thoughts or states of mind, would be that they came from us - our mind.... but then why ask where they came from if that is the obvious answer?? Why make us dig deeper and pause on that thought?? It's making us think deeper... who REALLY is the doer behind it all??? Even if its speaking of meism or states of mind, if I remove all of these what is left would be the TRUE me right?? But we are told what remains is Ik Onkar! So if Ik Onkar is what remins when they are gone, who created them to begin with??</span></em></p><p><em><span style="color: #0000b3">So to me, it would STILL lead to the ONE Creator consciousness who is beind everything.)</span></em></p><p> </p><p>Continued next message... ran out of space!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Harkiran Kaur, post: 204530, member: 18224"] I am sorry Tejwant Singh Ji, no matter how many times I read this I just don't see that it can be speaking only of states of mind or as yo put it 'meism'... Not sure if this is the whole thing or not I think it is... because another ||1|| is after this... I am still confused on how to tell where one beghins and another ends etc. [URL='http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਰਾਗੁ'][U]ਰਾਗੁ [/U][/URL][URL='http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਸੂਹੀ'][U]ਸੂਹੀ [/U][/URL][URL='http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਮਹਲਾ'][U]ਮਹਲਾ [/U][/URL][URL='http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=੫'][U]੫ [/U][/URL][URL='http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਘਰੁ'][U]ਘਰੁ [/U][/URL]੧ रागु सूही महला ५ घरु १ Rāg sūhī mėhlā 5 gẖar 1 Raag Soohee, Fifth Mehl, First House: [URL='http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ੴ'][U]ੴ [/U][/URL][URL='http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਸਤਿਗੁਰ'][U]ਸਤਿਗੁਰ [/U][/URL][URL='http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ'][U]ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ [/U][/URL]॥ ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥ Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯgur parsāḏ. One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru: [URL='http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਬਾਜੀਗਰਿ'][U]ਬਾਜੀਗਰਿ [/U][/URL][URL='http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਜੈਸੇ'][U]ਜੈਸੇ [/U][/URL][URL='http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਬਾਜੀ'][U]ਬਾਜੀ [/U][/URL][URL='http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਪਾਈ'][U]ਪਾਈ [/U][/URL]॥ बाजीगरि जैसे बाजी पाई ॥ Bājīgar jaise bājī pā▫ī. The actor stages the play, [I][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 179)](The actor, that is the one doing the acting or playing the parts, is also staging the play where they are being played. The play being spoken of is this reality and not a state of mind as we will see below).[/COLOR][/I] [URL='http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਨਾਨਾ'][U]ਨਾਨਾ [/U][/URL][URL='http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਰੂਪ'][U]ਰੂਪ [/U][/URL][URL='http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਭੇਖ'][U]ਭੇਖ [/U][/URL][URL='http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਦਿਖਲਾਈ'][U]ਦਿਖਲਾਈ [/U][/URL]॥ नाना रूप भेख दिखलाई ॥ Nānā rūp bẖekẖ ḏikẖlā▫ī. playing the many characters in different costumes; [I][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 179)](We are those characters. Further down it equates these characters with 'form' If it was merely speaking of meism and states of mind, then it wouldn't associate these characters to form. Instead they would be formless having only to do with the mind.)[/COLOR][/I] [URL='http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਸਾਂਗੁ'][U]ਸਾਂਗੁ [/U][/URL][URL='http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਉਤਾਰਿ'][U]ਉਤਾਰਿ [/U][/URL][URL='http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਥੰਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਓ'][U]ਥੰਮ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਓ [/U][/URL][URL='http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਪਾਸਾਰਾ'][U]ਪਾਸਾਰਾ [/U][/URL]॥ सांगु उतारि थम्हिओ पासारा ॥ Sāʼng uṯār thamiĥa▫o pāsārā. but when the play ends, he takes off the costumes, [I][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 179)](When this reality ends, and 'he' stops playing the part of these characters... as in these ego identities, us. )[/COLOR][/I] [URL='http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਤਬ'][U]ਤਬ [/U][/URL][URL='http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਏਕੋ'][U]ਏਕੋ [/U][/URL][URL='http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਏਕੰਕਾਰਾ'][U]ਏਕੰਕਾਰਾ [/U][/URL]॥੧॥ तब एको एकंकारा ॥१॥ Ŧab eko ekankārā. ||1|| and then he is one, and only one. ||1|| [COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 179)][I](We see that the whole time, it was really Waheguru who was playing ALL the characters... we see there is only the ONE... Ik Onkar... if it was speaking of mere states of mind, then why refer to what remains after we remove the costumes, as Ik Onkar? If it were mere states of mind and meism as you stated, then why is what remains after we remove these states of mind or meisms, still labelled Ik Onkar in this shabad?? This for me is the clincher... because if you only believe in consciousness as an emergent property and only in the physical and that this is speaking of meism and states of mind, thenits still saying by removing these states of mind, what is left is Ik Onkar!!! So even taking your explanation Tejwant Ji, these states of mind, are what we associate with US - our Ego Identity, and after we remove these Ego identities, or meisms as you call them, we still have something left... which is equated to Ik Onkar!)[/I][/COLOR] [URL='http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਕਵਨ'][U]ਕਵਨ [/U][/URL][URL='http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਰੂਪ'][U]ਰੂਪ [/U][/URL][URL='http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿਓ'][U]ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿਓ [/U][/URL][URL='http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਬਿਨਸਾਇਓ'][U]ਬਿਨਸਾਇਓ [/U][/URL]॥ कवन रूप द्रिसटिओ बिनसाइओ ॥ Kavan rūp ḏaristi▫o binsā▫i▫o. How many forms and images appeared and disappeared? [I][COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 179)](Here it is saying forms and images... again meism and states of mind are not 'form' they are not something tangible that we see but rather that we experience. So had it been speaking of mere states of mind a different descriptor would have been used but it's very clearly saying 'form'. Since you do not subscribe to the same belief as I do regarding the illusion of matter, thoughts and states of mind do not posses 'form' as they are formless abstract as thoughts and behaviours. It`s speaking of forms. And even if it`s speaking of identies as personalities or Ego or meisms, then above we are still told that in absence of them, Ik Onakr is what remains!) [/COLOR][/I] [URL='http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਕਤਹਿ'][U]ਕਤਹਿ [/U][/URL][URL='http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਗਇਓ'][U]ਗਇਓ [/U][/URL][URL='http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਉਹੁ'][U]ਉਹੁ [/U][/URL][URL='http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਕਤ'][U]ਕਤ [/U][/URL][URL='http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਤੇ'][U]ਤੇ [/U][/URL][URL='http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਆਇਓ'][U]ਆਇਓ [/U][/URL][URL='http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=॥੧॥'][U]॥੧॥ [/U][/URL][URL='http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani.dictionary?Param=ਰਹਾਉ'][U]ਰਹਾਉ [/U][/URL]॥ कतहि गइओ उहु कत ते आइओ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ Kaṯėh ga▫i▫o uho kaṯ ṯe ā▫i▫o. ||1|| rahā▫o. Where have they gone? Where did they come from? ||1||Pause|| [I][COLOR=#0000b3](Where have these FORMS gone, and where did they come from? Again, if it were speaking of states of mind going and coming, then the line immediately preceeding it would not have referred to them as having form. And even if you somehow metaphorically equate it to meism it still asks us to ponder where did they come from? The obvious answer if it were thoughts or states of mind, would be that they came from us - our mind.... but then why ask where they came from if that is the obvious answer?? Why make us dig deeper and pause on that thought?? It's making us think deeper... who REALLY is the doer behind it all??? Even if its speaking of meism or states of mind, if I remove all of these what is left would be the TRUE me right?? But we are told what remains is Ik Onkar! So if Ik Onkar is what remins when they are gone, who created them to begin with?? So to me, it would STILL lead to the ONE Creator consciousness who is beind everything.)[/COLOR][/I] Continued next message... ran out of space! [/QUOTE]
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