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Chhant (843-848)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਗੋਂਡ | Raag Gond
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Sidh Gosat (938-946)
Vaar Ramkalee (947-968)
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Bhagat Bani (988)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਾਰੂ | Raag Maaroo
Gurbani (889-1008)
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Kaafee (1014-1016)
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Anjulian (1019-1020)
Solhe (1020-1033)
Dakhni (1033-1043)
ਰਾਗੁ ਤੁਖਾਰੀ | Raag Tukhaari
Bara Maha (1107-1110)
Chhant (1110-1117)
ਰਾਗੁ ਕੇਦਾਰਾ | Raag Kedara
Gurbani (1118-1123)
Bhagat Bani (1123-1124)
ਰਾਗੁ ਭੈਰਉ | Raag Bhairo
Gurbani (1125-1152)
Partaal (1153)
Ashtpadiyan (1153-1167)
ਰਾਗੁ ਬਸੰਤੁ | Raag Basant
Gurbani (1168-1187)
Ashtpadiyan (1187-1193)
Vaar Basant (1193-1196)
ਰਾਗੁ ਸਾਰਗ | Raag Saarag
Gurbani (1197-1200)
Partaal (1200-1231)
Ashtpadiyan (1232-1236)
Chhant (1236-1237)
Vaar Saarang (1237-1253)
ਰਾਗੁ ਮਲਾਰ | Raag Malaar
Gurbani (1254-1293)
Partaal (1265-1273)
Ashtpadiyan (1273-1278)
Chhant (1278)
Vaar Malaar (1278-91)
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ਰਾਗੁ ਕਾਨੜਾ | Raag Kaanraa
Gurbani (1294-96)
Partaal (1296-1318)
Ashtpadiyan (1308-1312)
Chhant (1312)
Vaar Kaanraa
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Gurbani (1352-53)
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Sehskritee Mahala 1
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Swaiyyae in Praise of Gurus
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Are Lascivious Thoughts Immoral If Not Acted On?
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<blockquote data-quote="Archived_member14" data-source="post: 152538" data-attributes="member: 586"><p>Harry ji,</p><p></p><p>There is so much to discuss, but I don't know if I'll be able to cover all the important points.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>We don't go about judging people this way of course. What we do take note is their actions through speech and body, and clearly in some cases, what comes across to us is genuine goodness, and we should in fact rejoice in this. The perception of cesspit is that of each individual's own mind and not that of the other person. But yes, we should expect that we are all much defiled.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Lying involves the intention to deceive another person, you are therefore not lying. I do believe that you are genuinely good (perception from the standpoint of the other person ;-)), and that you readily empathize with other people, unlike me, who is quite autistic. What may be going on with you however is that you have identified with your intentions, which come across to you as good, not by wisdom, but something else. And of course, as compared to some of us, you may indeed have strong accumulations to particular good deeds and this is why you do what you do. But still, if we are aware of what goes on from moment to moment, we can see that in any situation, there are both good and bad motives alternating and the self-seeking ones are much more if not overarching. </p><p></p><p>For those of us who have made "good" our aim, there is also what in the Buddhist teachings, called "Cheating States". </p><p></p><p>It is to be expected, given the lack of wisdom, that when introduced to religious ideas, particularly those related to mental development and purity of conduct, that attachment will be directed towards wanting to accumulate and to achieve. The attachment to 'self' is deeply rooted and has replaced worldly ambition with a so called, spiritual one. Cheating states are those that come across to the person as signs of success along the spiritual path but are in fact not. In reality these come down to being different manifestations of attachment, wrong understanding and conceit, and this means, self-deceptions.</p><p></p><p>Here we can see the importance of having understanding from the very beginning. And also that all kinds of good such as, truthfulness, patience, morality, equanimity, renunciation and so on, need to be developed as support; otherwise we will keep going off-track and be fooling ourselves. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>"Understanding" is the key and it is understanding which detaches. The idea of 'letting go' or 'letting it flow' is just that, an idea. When understanding arises, there is detachment but no idea about doing it or not doing it. Indeed thinking to let go and trying to follow it through must be due to attachment which then will likely encourage one or more of the 'cheating states' to take over. </p><p></p><p>There is a Buddhist concept called 'Silabattaparamasa', or 'attachment to rules and rituals'. The "Sila" in this phrase is the Pali for "morality". What this then means is that, attachment to morality leads to actions and practices which amount to being "rules and rituals". </p><p></p><p>Guilt is a form of aversion and reflects attachment to "self". So you can see how these relate to each other, namely attachment to doing good and feelings of guilt when failing. Instead of guilt, there should be moral shame and fear of blame. While guilt is characterized by agitation and accompanied by unpleasant feeling, moral shame is never agitated or unpleasant. Indeed it arises with all good states and accompanied by faith, calm and a degree of detachment. So you might like to consider this as indicator as to whether what you do is right or not….</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Whatever it is, only wisdom can really know. But it has to know it when it manifests and not as an idea or thinking in retrospect. We can't stop thinking about the past, however when this happens, if we do not realize that this is only "thinking" chances are that another muddle is created in which we are then caught. There can be thinking about one's past deeds with a mind which appreciates the deed itself and this is fine, although this may not have anything to do with wisdom. Usually however, the thinking revolves around me, mine and I, and this is not fine.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>There is morality which is restraint and there is morality which is action.</p><p>The former is when otherwise mental, verbal or bodily transgression would have arisen, but instead a moment of restraint arises due to moral shame and fear of blame. The latter is expressed as good manners which include being considerate, showing respect, expressing gratitude and helping other people. They all point to the state of mind and not to the outward actions. This is why it takes time and very close observation and us being moral ourselves, to know whether someone else is truly moral or not.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is ordinary attachment which I'm sure will never be the cause for you to act immorally, so I don't think that you should be concerned about it. Indeed that you are, is sign of attachment to 'self', and this is a problem you should be aware of! </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>What state of mind does "enjoying" primarily consist of if not attachment? Attachment comes in many forms and degrees. Enjoying food is harmless and should not be our concern because in fact there are other more harmful attachments, including to the idea of being without attachment and using discipline and wisdom to get there. </p><p></p><p>Right understanding is the goal from beginning to the end. Attachment, ignorance, aversion and conceit are dealt with as the understanding develops. The idea of dealing with these with wisdom is not itself an instance of wisdom, but that of ambition. It is overreaching. This is the kind of trap that we get into if we do not see the role and importance of understanding and to being patient about it. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It does not matter what the thoughts are and which direction it takes. For all of us, whether we are a farmer, a mechanic, a scientist, a businessman, a social worker or a politician, what we think in a day and how much it jumps from one object to another, the point is to understand the "thinking" itself and any of what conditions it from moment to moment, such as aversion, ignorance, conceit, attachment, jealousy, miserliness or kindness, compassion and so on. There is no point trying to analyse thoughts in order to find the answer since that would only be just more thoughts.</p><p></p><p>Being open minded is being open to other people's ideas. But if one does not understand thinking as just thinking, one just ends up taking seriously all the thoughts and this is not helpful at all. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Unwholesome states are those that are rooted in ignorance alone or this with either attachment or aversion. Wholesome states are the opposite whose roots are wisdom, non-attachment and non-aversion. A moment of generosity, morality, kindness, compassion, wisdom, sympathetic joy and faith are examples of wholesome states. Anger, lust, jealousy, miserliness, doubt, conceit, ill-will and wrong understanding are examples of the unwholesome. </p><p></p><p>In general, a wholesome state is characterized by calm whereas the unwholesome, by agitation. One is productive of good results and the other of bad.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>What I am talking about is wisdom which understands the nature of the different phenomena that make up our lives, which include the ability to distinguish good states from bad states and how these and all other kinds of realities are fleeting, insubstantial and impersonal. Your experience on the other hand appears to refer to what can be said to be 'conditioned response' to situations. Your position could perhaps be said to be that of 'worldly wisdom', but is not something that is about understanding the reality "now". </p><p></p><p>Although I now see him as being quite misguided, there is something J. Krishnamurti said which has stayed with me for a long time. He said something to the effect that, "we can't learn from experience, but only from what is now". And there is also a Sufi saying with a similar message which I often recall; this is that, "one can't ride a camel which has gone and one which hasn't come, but only the one that is here". </p><p></p><p>Learning from the past involves value judgements and thinking in terms of situations. No attention is given to the mental state behind any intention to act now. This must then in fact be just more ignorance, with either attachment, conceit or view and can be seen as an act of avoidance. That is, in taking cues from past experiences, thinking about the present in terms of a situation, one avoids looking at what the reality is now. </p><p></p><p>The feeling of relief may be indication of the clinging involved. Yes I'd say that your good deeds now are in spite of the past bad ones. At the time the conditions were such that it was easy for bad deeds to arise and now the conditions have changed. And I'm sure that you will agree that things may have gone differently, for example, if you did not have the problem regarding your health. Besides there are countless examples of so called bad experiences leading to other kinds of wrong behaviours. </p><p></p><p>The truth is that it is never the case that good happens as a result of bad, so while those bad deeds not only will bring results in the future, they have also accumulated as tendency, thereby increasing the chance of future arising. The good now is due to the good accumulated from the past, read countless lives, and these accumulate as well. </p><p></p><p>Sometimes, in an attempt to explain what is going on but limited by the perception of the different incidents in one's life, a mistaken idea about cause and effect comes to be held. This is perversion of perception, of consciousness and of view all taking effect. To insist on it just adds to the problem. </p><p></p><p>This is somewhat rushed, and I have to end right here as my son has been waiting for quite some time to watch ‘Thor’ with me. :happysingh:</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Archived_member14, post: 152538, member: 586"] Harry ji, There is so much to discuss, but I don't know if I'll be able to cover all the important points. We don't go about judging people this way of course. What we do take note is their actions through speech and body, and clearly in some cases, what comes across to us is genuine goodness, and we should in fact rejoice in this. The perception of cesspit is that of each individual's own mind and not that of the other person. But yes, we should expect that we are all much defiled. Lying involves the intention to deceive another person, you are therefore not lying. I do believe that you are genuinely good (perception from the standpoint of the other person ;-)), and that you readily empathize with other people, unlike me, who is quite autistic. What may be going on with you however is that you have identified with your intentions, which come across to you as good, not by wisdom, but something else. And of course, as compared to some of us, you may indeed have strong accumulations to particular good deeds and this is why you do what you do. But still, if we are aware of what goes on from moment to moment, we can see that in any situation, there are both good and bad motives alternating and the self-seeking ones are much more if not overarching. For those of us who have made "good" our aim, there is also what in the Buddhist teachings, called "Cheating States". It is to be expected, given the lack of wisdom, that when introduced to religious ideas, particularly those related to mental development and purity of conduct, that attachment will be directed towards wanting to accumulate and to achieve. The attachment to 'self' is deeply rooted and has replaced worldly ambition with a so called, spiritual one. Cheating states are those that come across to the person as signs of success along the spiritual path but are in fact not. In reality these come down to being different manifestations of attachment, wrong understanding and conceit, and this means, self-deceptions. Here we can see the importance of having understanding from the very beginning. And also that all kinds of good such as, truthfulness, patience, morality, equanimity, renunciation and so on, need to be developed as support; otherwise we will keep going off-track and be fooling ourselves. "Understanding" is the key and it is understanding which detaches. The idea of 'letting go' or 'letting it flow' is just that, an idea. When understanding arises, there is detachment but no idea about doing it or not doing it. Indeed thinking to let go and trying to follow it through must be due to attachment which then will likely encourage one or more of the 'cheating states' to take over. There is a Buddhist concept called 'Silabattaparamasa', or 'attachment to rules and rituals'. The "Sila" in this phrase is the Pali for "morality". What this then means is that, attachment to morality leads to actions and practices which amount to being "rules and rituals". Guilt is a form of aversion and reflects attachment to "self". So you can see how these relate to each other, namely attachment to doing good and feelings of guilt when failing. Instead of guilt, there should be moral shame and fear of blame. While guilt is characterized by agitation and accompanied by unpleasant feeling, moral shame is never agitated or unpleasant. Indeed it arises with all good states and accompanied by faith, calm and a degree of detachment. So you might like to consider this as indicator as to whether what you do is right or not…. Whatever it is, only wisdom can really know. But it has to know it when it manifests and not as an idea or thinking in retrospect. We can't stop thinking about the past, however when this happens, if we do not realize that this is only "thinking" chances are that another muddle is created in which we are then caught. There can be thinking about one's past deeds with a mind which appreciates the deed itself and this is fine, although this may not have anything to do with wisdom. Usually however, the thinking revolves around me, mine and I, and this is not fine. There is morality which is restraint and there is morality which is action. The former is when otherwise mental, verbal or bodily transgression would have arisen, but instead a moment of restraint arises due to moral shame and fear of blame. The latter is expressed as good manners which include being considerate, showing respect, expressing gratitude and helping other people. They all point to the state of mind and not to the outward actions. This is why it takes time and very close observation and us being moral ourselves, to know whether someone else is truly moral or not. This is ordinary attachment which I'm sure will never be the cause for you to act immorally, so I don't think that you should be concerned about it. Indeed that you are, is sign of attachment to 'self', and this is a problem you should be aware of! What state of mind does "enjoying" primarily consist of if not attachment? Attachment comes in many forms and degrees. Enjoying food is harmless and should not be our concern because in fact there are other more harmful attachments, including to the idea of being without attachment and using discipline and wisdom to get there. Right understanding is the goal from beginning to the end. Attachment, ignorance, aversion and conceit are dealt with as the understanding develops. The idea of dealing with these with wisdom is not itself an instance of wisdom, but that of ambition. It is overreaching. This is the kind of trap that we get into if we do not see the role and importance of understanding and to being patient about it. It does not matter what the thoughts are and which direction it takes. For all of us, whether we are a farmer, a mechanic, a scientist, a businessman, a social worker or a politician, what we think in a day and how much it jumps from one object to another, the point is to understand the "thinking" itself and any of what conditions it from moment to moment, such as aversion, ignorance, conceit, attachment, jealousy, miserliness or kindness, compassion and so on. There is no point trying to analyse thoughts in order to find the answer since that would only be just more thoughts. Being open minded is being open to other people's ideas. But if one does not understand thinking as just thinking, one just ends up taking seriously all the thoughts and this is not helpful at all. Unwholesome states are those that are rooted in ignorance alone or this with either attachment or aversion. Wholesome states are the opposite whose roots are wisdom, non-attachment and non-aversion. A moment of generosity, morality, kindness, compassion, wisdom, sympathetic joy and faith are examples of wholesome states. Anger, lust, jealousy, miserliness, doubt, conceit, ill-will and wrong understanding are examples of the unwholesome. In general, a wholesome state is characterized by calm whereas the unwholesome, by agitation. One is productive of good results and the other of bad. What I am talking about is wisdom which understands the nature of the different phenomena that make up our lives, which include the ability to distinguish good states from bad states and how these and all other kinds of realities are fleeting, insubstantial and impersonal. Your experience on the other hand appears to refer to what can be said to be 'conditioned response' to situations. Your position could perhaps be said to be that of 'worldly wisdom', but is not something that is about understanding the reality "now". Although I now see him as being quite misguided, there is something J. Krishnamurti said which has stayed with me for a long time. He said something to the effect that, "we can't learn from experience, but only from what is now". And there is also a Sufi saying with a similar message which I often recall; this is that, "one can't ride a camel which has gone and one which hasn't come, but only the one that is here". Learning from the past involves value judgements and thinking in terms of situations. No attention is given to the mental state behind any intention to act now. This must then in fact be just more ignorance, with either attachment, conceit or view and can be seen as an act of avoidance. That is, in taking cues from past experiences, thinking about the present in terms of a situation, one avoids looking at what the reality is now. The feeling of relief may be indication of the clinging involved. Yes I'd say that your good deeds now are in spite of the past bad ones. At the time the conditions were such that it was easy for bad deeds to arise and now the conditions have changed. And I'm sure that you will agree that things may have gone differently, for example, if you did not have the problem regarding your health. Besides there are countless examples of so called bad experiences leading to other kinds of wrong behaviours. The truth is that it is never the case that good happens as a result of bad, so while those bad deeds not only will bring results in the future, they have also accumulated as tendency, thereby increasing the chance of future arising. The good now is due to the good accumulated from the past, read countless lives, and these accumulate as well. Sometimes, in an attempt to explain what is going on but limited by the perception of the different incidents in one's life, a mistaken idea about cause and effect comes to be held. This is perversion of perception, of consciousness and of view all taking effect. To insist on it just adds to the problem. This is somewhat rushed, and I have to end right here as my son has been waiting for quite some time to watch ‘Thor’ with me. :happysingh: [/QUOTE]
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