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Hard Talk
Bachittar Natak
Answers To The Issues Raised By Gyani Bhag Singh Ji On The Verses Onto Tenth Master
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<blockquote data-quote="vijaydeep Singh" data-source="post: 104185" data-attributes="member: 313"><p><strong>Re: Answers to the issues raised by Gyani Bhag Singh Ji on the verses unto Tenth Mast</strong></p><p></p><p>Gurfateh</p><p> Part-2</p><p> Shastra Nam Mala Puran.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> Ambala Ji's name user says that as it is not within 18 Hindu Puranas so it could not be a Purana and Puranas talk History only.</p><p> </p><p> Let us see.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> Page 923, Line 16</p><p> ਕੇਸੋ ਗੋਪਾਲ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਸਦਿਅਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕਥਾ ਪੜਹਿ ਪੁਰਾਣੁ ਜੀਉ ॥</p><p> केसो गोपाल पंडित सदिअहु हरि हरि कथा पड़हि पुराणु जीउ ॥</p><p> Keso gopāl pandiṯ saḏi▫ahu har har kathā paṛėh purāṇ jī▫o.</p><p> Call in the long-haired scholarly Saints of the Lord, to read the sermon of the Lord, Har, Har.</p><p> Baba Sundar - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok</p><p> Has he not read Sadu in Ramkali Rag?Hari Hari Katha Puran there also is not from 18 Hindu Puranas either.</p><p> </p><p> Likewise in Bhavishya Purana and Kalki Purana we have future also writtan.</p><p> </p><p> then let us see the name of the historical figures</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> ਮੱਛ ਕੱਛ ਬਾਰਾਹ ਤੁਮ ਤੁਮ ਬਾਵਨ ਅਵਤਾਰ ॥ ਨਾਰ ਸਿੰਘ ਬਉਧਾ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਜਗਤ ਕੋ ਸਾਰ ॥੧੬॥</p><p> म्छ क्छ बाराह तुम तुम बावन अवतार ॥ नार सिंघ बउधा तुहीं तुहीं जगत को सार ॥१६॥</p><p> Thou art Machh (fish incarnation), Kachh (tortoise incarnation) and Varaha (the boar incarnation); Thou art also the Dwarf incarnation; Thou art also narsingh and Buddha and Thou art the Essence of the whole world.16.</p><p> </p><p> ਤੁਹੀਂ ਰਾਮ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਤੁਮ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕੋ ਰੂਪ ॥ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਪ੍ਰਜਾ ਸਭ ਜਗਤ ਕੀ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਭੂਪ ॥੧੭॥</p><p> तुहीं राम स्री क्रिशन तुम तुहीं बिशन को रूप ॥ तुहीं प्रजा सभ जगत की तुहीं आप ही भूप ॥१७॥</p><p> Thou art Rama, Krishna and Vishnu; Thou art the subjects of the whole world and Thou art also the Sovereign.17.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> Over here Guru talks of Akal/Bhagouti taking form of Sastra ie weapons to protect us.</p><p> </p><p> Weapans as manifestation of Akal are our guide or rather our guide has taken form of weapons.</p><p> </p><p> Let us see the proof about this ominpresent God in first praises of Bhagouti.</p><p> </p><p> ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਅਸਤ੍ਰ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਸਿਪਰ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਕਵਚ ਨਿਖੰਗ ॥ ਕਵਚਾਂਤਕ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਬਨੇ ਤੁਮ ਬਯਾਪਕ ਸਰਬੰਗ ॥੭॥</p><p> शसत्र असत्र तुमही सिपर तुमही कवच निखंग ॥ कवचांतक तुमही बने तुम बयापक सरबंग ॥७॥</p><p> Thou art the arms and weapons, Thou art the Nikhang (quiver), and the Kavach (armour); Thou art the destroyer of the armours and Thou art also all pervading.7.</p><p> </p><p> and further more.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਉਪਾਵਹੁ ਜਗਤ ਤੁਮ ਤੁਮਹੀਂ ਪੰਥ ਬਨਾਇ ॥ ਆਪ ਤੁਹੀ ਝਗਰਾ ਕਰੋ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਕਰੋ ਸਹਾਇ ॥੧੫॥</p><p> प्रिथम उपावहु जगत तुम तुमहीं पंथ बनाइ ॥ आप तुही झगरा करो तुमही करो सहाइ ॥१५॥</p><p> Firstly Thou createst the world, and then the Paths; then Thou crreatest the disputes and also help them.15.</p><p> </p><p> ਮੱਛ ਕੱਛ ਬਾਰਾਹ ਤੁਮ ਤੁਮ ਬਾਵਨ ਅਵਤਾਰ ॥ ਨਾਰ ਸਿੰਘ ਬਉਧਾ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਜਗਤ ਕੋ ਸਾਰ ॥੧੬॥</p><p> म्छ क्छ बाराह तुम तुम बावन अवतार ॥ नार सिंघ बउधा तुहीं तुहीं जगत को सार ॥१६॥</p><p> Thou art Machh (fish incarnation), Kachh (tortoise incarnation) and Varaha (the boar incarnation); Thou art also the Dwarf incarnation; Thou art also narsingh and Buddha and Thou art the Essence of the whole world.16.</p><p> </p><p> ਤੁਹੀਂ ਰਾਮ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਤੁਮ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕੋ ਰੂਪ ॥ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਪ੍ਰਜਾ ਸਭ ਜਗਤ ਕੀ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਭੂਪ ॥੧੭॥</p><p> तुहीं राम स्री क्रिशन तुम तुहीं बिशन को रूप ॥ तुहीं प्रजा सभ जगत की तुहीं आप ही भूप ॥१७॥</p><p> Thou art Rama, Krishna and Vishnu; Thou art the subjects of the whole world and Thou art also the Sovereign.17.</p><p> </p><p> </p><p> Then further he quotes Tantric Granths not at all in much use.</p><p> </p><p> As in those Granths there is a ritual to worship knife/sword before using it to carry out sacrifice of animal. In case of one it is of copper and a sketch or Yantra is made over it and then spell is said, while in other some part of it are igined as demigoddess from various point.</p><p> </p><p> Anyone who reads the work of Tenth Master in this Purana and the quotation from Tanric text will find the difference and that’s why Ambala Ji, did not quote but only gave reference.</p><p> </p><p> Let us see below from two texts he give reference he thought that no Singh is going to verify them.</p><p> </p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Taking copper and making a sword of 50 angulas length, and drawing a yantra on it, a person should recite the mantra. Sitting on a great corpse during a Kali day and reciting the mantra 1,000 times, (a sadhaka) should dig a pit in front of a Bija tree and do the binding and protection, reciting on a Kula eighth in the cremation ground at midnight. Firstly pleasing (the Devi), he should then do sacrifice in the cremation ground, using the three madhus with bilva leaf. </span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Arial'">After the sacrifice, he should offer animal sacrifice to supreme Maya Devi Mahishamardini. Whosoever gives complete animal sacrifice to the great Unmukhi gains her favour. Dear son, say: "Take, wielder of the sword! Terrifying and fanged Maha Kali, true one of formidable form, Kam Im Um make! Kalyani, cut through my enemy!" </span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Arial'">If a man should raise and strike with the sword, at the same time reciting the mantra, having cut, having cut and again having cut, he may achieve the act of sadhana. </span></p><p> <span style="font-family: 'Arial'">Otherwise, he should</span></p><p> (Kulchurhamani Tantra 6th Patal)</p><p> Let us bring to mind the bonds of the life of a beast. Let us meditate upon the Creator of the Universe. May He liberate us from out of this life (of a beast) (109-110).</p><p> Then, taking the sacrificial knife, the excellent worshipper should worship it with the Vija "Hung," and worship Sarasvati and Brahma at its end, Lakshmi and Narayana at its middle, and Uma and Maheshvara at the handle (111-112). Then the sacrificial knife should be worshipped with the</p><p> </p><p> Mantra</p><p> Namah to the sacrificial knife infused with the presence of Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva, and their Shaktis (113).</p><p> Then, dedicating it with the Great Word, he should, with folded hands, say: "May this dedication to Thee be according to the ordained rites" (114).</p><p> Having thus offered the beast to the Devi, it should be placed on the ground (115). The worshipper then, with mind intent upon the Devi, should sever the head of the beast with one sharp stroke. This may be done either by the worshipper himself or by his brother, brother’s son, a friend, or a kinsman, but never by one who is an enemy (116). The blood, when yet warm, should be offered to the Vatukas. Then the head with a light on it should be offered to the Devi with the following:</p><p> Mantra</p><p> "This head with the light upon it I offer to the Devi with obeisance " (117).</p><p> (MahaNirvan Tanra Sixth Patal)</p><p> So this thing is totally out of context. Another thing is did nose is used by tantric ? then why is pash or nose is used here ? What about the Bana or arrow and what about The Chakra ?</p><p> </p><p> We still use all of them in martial arts. Fact is that there is no such names given to knife or sword, as expected from Tantric. For Pash we may use Parana or Pall (long cloth) around our neck to tie down the enemy, more used during policing then in real fight, where civilian is to be caught alive.</p><p> </p><p> While Chakra is kept in the form of Kara or tied around the Turban, it is used as throwing weapon.</p><p> </p><p> In Tanrtic either weapon is part of demigoddess {censored}nal or it is tool in her worship so respected more in the case of sword. But no where there demigoddess is addressed as sword. But here in Sikhism we address the sword with the name which Hindus use for demigoddess.</p><p> </p><p> Does it contains name of Tupak ie gun also ?</p><p> </p><p> Does any old Tantric rituals have gun also included in them ?This Gun was brought to India by Moguls and Europeans.</p><p> </p><p> So what is the use of all names given to various weapons?</p><p> </p><p> Very Simple.While we use arms in war or in messaging. There could be code names for them. And list of those interchangeable name is given by Guru.</p><p> </p><p> Lastly das also wants him to give a referance from any old Tantric text where are told to repeat the name of guns which Moghuls or Europeans brought to India.</p><p> </p><p> Which of The Demigod or demigodess has gun in thier hand.Term to gun is Tupak and is used in this text.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="vijaydeep Singh, post: 104185, member: 313"] [b]Re: Answers to the issues raised by Gyani Bhag Singh Ji on the verses unto Tenth Mast[/b] Gurfateh Part-2 Shastra Nam Mala Puran. Ambala Ji's name user says that as it is not within 18 Hindu Puranas so it could not be a Purana and Puranas talk History only. Let us see. Page 923, Line 16 ਕੇਸੋ ਗੋਪਾਲ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਸਦਿਅਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕਥਾ ਪੜਹਿ ਪੁਰਾਣੁ ਜੀਉ ॥ केसो गोपाल पंडित सदिअहु हरि हरि कथा पड़हि पुराणु जीउ ॥ Keso gopāl pandiṯ saḏi▫ahu har har kathā paṛėh purāṇ jī▫o. Call in the long-haired scholarly Saints of the Lord, to read the sermon of the Lord, Har, Har. Baba Sundar - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok Has he not read Sadu in Ramkali Rag?Hari Hari Katha Puran there also is not from 18 Hindu Puranas either. Likewise in Bhavishya Purana and Kalki Purana we have future also writtan. then let us see the name of the historical figures ਮੱਛ ਕੱਛ ਬਾਰਾਹ ਤੁਮ ਤੁਮ ਬਾਵਨ ਅਵਤਾਰ ॥ ਨਾਰ ਸਿੰਘ ਬਉਧਾ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਜਗਤ ਕੋ ਸਾਰ ॥੧੬॥ म्छ क्छ बाराह तुम तुम बावन अवतार ॥ नार सिंघ बउधा तुहीं तुहीं जगत को सार ॥१६॥ Thou art Machh (fish incarnation), Kachh (tortoise incarnation) and Varaha (the boar incarnation); Thou art also the Dwarf incarnation; Thou art also narsingh and Buddha and Thou art the Essence of the whole world.16. ਤੁਹੀਂ ਰਾਮ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਤੁਮ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕੋ ਰੂਪ ॥ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਪ੍ਰਜਾ ਸਭ ਜਗਤ ਕੀ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਭੂਪ ॥੧੭॥ तुहीं राम स्री क्रिशन तुम तुहीं बिशन को रूप ॥ तुहीं प्रजा सभ जगत की तुहीं आप ही भूप ॥१७॥ Thou art Rama, Krishna and Vishnu; Thou art the subjects of the whole world and Thou art also the Sovereign.17. Over here Guru talks of Akal/Bhagouti taking form of Sastra ie weapons to protect us. Weapans as manifestation of Akal are our guide or rather our guide has taken form of weapons. Let us see the proof about this ominpresent God in first praises of Bhagouti. ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਅਸਤ੍ਰ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਸਿਪਰ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਕਵਚ ਨਿਖੰਗ ॥ ਕਵਚਾਂਤਕ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਬਨੇ ਤੁਮ ਬਯਾਪਕ ਸਰਬੰਗ ॥੭॥ शसत्र असत्र तुमही सिपर तुमही कवच निखंग ॥ कवचांतक तुमही बने तुम बयापक सरबंग ॥७॥ Thou art the arms and weapons, Thou art the Nikhang (quiver), and the Kavach (armour); Thou art the destroyer of the armours and Thou art also all pervading.7. and further more. ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਉਪਾਵਹੁ ਜਗਤ ਤੁਮ ਤੁਮਹੀਂ ਪੰਥ ਬਨਾਇ ॥ ਆਪ ਤੁਹੀ ਝਗਰਾ ਕਰੋ ਤੁਮਹੀ ਕਰੋ ਸਹਾਇ ॥੧੫॥ प्रिथम उपावहु जगत तुम तुमहीं पंथ बनाइ ॥ आप तुही झगरा करो तुमही करो सहाइ ॥१५॥ Firstly Thou createst the world, and then the Paths; then Thou crreatest the disputes and also help them.15. ਮੱਛ ਕੱਛ ਬਾਰਾਹ ਤੁਮ ਤੁਮ ਬਾਵਨ ਅਵਤਾਰ ॥ ਨਾਰ ਸਿੰਘ ਬਉਧਾ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਜਗਤ ਕੋ ਸਾਰ ॥੧੬॥ म्छ क्छ बाराह तुम तुम बावन अवतार ॥ नार सिंघ बउधा तुहीं तुहीं जगत को सार ॥१६॥ Thou art Machh (fish incarnation), Kachh (tortoise incarnation) and Varaha (the boar incarnation); Thou art also the Dwarf incarnation; Thou art also narsingh and Buddha and Thou art the Essence of the whole world.16. ਤੁਹੀਂ ਰਾਮ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਤੁਮ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕੋ ਰੂਪ ॥ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਪ੍ਰਜਾ ਸਭ ਜਗਤ ਕੀ ਤੁਹੀਂ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਭੂਪ ॥੧੭॥ तुहीं राम स्री क्रिशन तुम तुहीं बिशन को रूप ॥ तुहीं प्रजा सभ जगत की तुहीं आप ही भूप ॥१७॥ Thou art Rama, Krishna and Vishnu; Thou art the subjects of the whole world and Thou art also the Sovereign.17. Then further he quotes Tantric Granths not at all in much use. As in those Granths there is a ritual to worship knife/sword before using it to carry out sacrifice of animal. In case of one it is of copper and a sketch or Yantra is made over it and then spell is said, while in other some part of it are igined as demigoddess from various point. Anyone who reads the work of Tenth Master in this Purana and the quotation from Tanric text will find the difference and that’s why Ambala Ji, did not quote but only gave reference. Let us see below from two texts he give reference he thought that no Singh is going to verify them. [FONT=Arial]Taking copper and making a sword of 50 angulas length, and drawing a yantra on it, a person should recite the mantra. Sitting on a great corpse during a Kali day and reciting the mantra 1,000 times, (a sadhaka) should dig a pit in front of a Bija tree and do the binding and protection, reciting on a Kula eighth in the cremation ground at midnight. Firstly pleasing (the Devi), he should then do sacrifice in the cremation ground, using the three madhus with bilva leaf. [/FONT][FONT=Arial][/FONT] [FONT=Arial]After the sacrifice, he should offer animal sacrifice to supreme Maya Devi Mahishamardini. Whosoever gives complete animal sacrifice to the great Unmukhi gains her favour. Dear son, say: "Take, wielder of the sword! Terrifying and fanged Maha Kali, true one of formidable form, Kam Im Um make! Kalyani, cut through my enemy!" [/FONT][FONT=Arial][/FONT] [FONT=Arial]If a man should raise and strike with the sword, at the same time reciting the mantra, having cut, having cut and again having cut, he may achieve the act of sadhana. [/FONT][FONT=Arial][/FONT] [FONT=Arial]Otherwise, he should[/FONT][FONT=Arial][/FONT] (Kulchurhamani Tantra 6th Patal) Let us bring to mind the bonds of the life of a beast. Let us meditate upon the Creator of the Universe. May He liberate us from out of this life (of a beast) (109-110). Then, taking the sacrificial knife, the excellent worshipper should worship it with the Vija "Hung," and worship Sarasvati and Brahma at its end, Lakshmi and Narayana at its middle, and Uma and Maheshvara at the handle (111-112). Then the sacrificial knife should be worshipped with the Mantra Namah to the sacrificial knife infused with the presence of Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva, and their Shaktis (113). Then, dedicating it with the Great Word, he should, with folded hands, say: "May this dedication to Thee be according to the ordained rites" (114). Having thus offered the beast to the Devi, it should be placed on the ground (115). The worshipper then, with mind intent upon the Devi, should sever the head of the beast with one sharp stroke. This may be done either by the worshipper himself or by his brother, brother’s son, a friend, or a kinsman, but never by one who is an enemy (116). The blood, when yet warm, should be offered to the Vatukas. Then the head with a light on it should be offered to the Devi with the following: Mantra "This head with the light upon it I offer to the Devi with obeisance " (117). (MahaNirvan Tanra Sixth Patal) So this thing is totally out of context. Another thing is did nose is used by tantric ? then why is pash or nose is used here ? What about the Bana or arrow and what about The Chakra ? We still use all of them in martial arts. Fact is that there is no such names given to knife or sword, as expected from Tantric. For Pash we may use Parana or Pall (long cloth) around our neck to tie down the enemy, more used during policing then in real fight, where civilian is to be caught alive. While Chakra is kept in the form of Kara or tied around the Turban, it is used as throwing weapon. In Tanrtic either weapon is part of demigoddess {censored}nal or it is tool in her worship so respected more in the case of sword. But no where there demigoddess is addressed as sword. But here in Sikhism we address the sword with the name which Hindus use for demigoddess. Does it contains name of Tupak ie gun also ? Does any old Tantric rituals have gun also included in them ?This Gun was brought to India by Moguls and Europeans. So what is the use of all names given to various weapons? Very Simple.While we use arms in war or in messaging. There could be code names for them. And list of those interchangeable name is given by Guru. Lastly das also wants him to give a referance from any old Tantric text where are told to repeat the name of guns which Moghuls or Europeans brought to India. Which of The Demigod or demigodess has gun in thier hand.Term to gun is Tupak and is used in this text. [/QUOTE]
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Answers To The Issues Raised By Gyani Bhag Singh Ji On The Verses Onto Tenth Master
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