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Aasaa di Vaar to Second Pauri: Nānak jī▫a upā▫e kai / ਨਾਨਕ ਜੀਅ ਉਪਾਇ ਕੈ

Discussion in 'Aasaa Di Vaar' started by Ambarsaria, Mar 18, 2013.

  1. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    This is a second post in a series for us to review and share each of our own understanding of the bani of Aasaa di Vaar in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

    ESSENCE: Guru Nanak Dev j I state the true and truthfulness embodiment in and of the creator. All creation and constellations so known to the true one. Guru ji further state about the majesty of the creator being all knowing and acting without request and not succumbing to pleading.

    Guru Angad Dev ji state that the universe is residence of the true one. The creation and destruction proceeding per command. The blessings per benevolence of the same.

    In the pauri much emphasis on the accountability of our deeds. The truth is metric of measure for actions. The comforting and disturbing experiences simply a distillation through truth. The accountability is always there and so noted.

    I stand corrected and all errors are mine.

    Any thoughts and what you think.

    Sat Sri Akal.

    Some Notes:

    1. For a musical rendition of this collection you may wish to listen along starting around from 4 minute 48 seconds to 7 min 15 seconds,

    Asa Di Vaar Shiromani Ragi Bhai Balbir Singh Ji - Rare Recording 1991 - YouTube

    2. ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਵਿੱਚ ਕਰਤਾਰ ਦੀ ਮਹਿਮਾ ਭਰੀ ਬਾਣੀ, ਜੋ ਪੌੜੀ ਛੰਦਾਂ ਨਾਲ ਸਲੋਕ ਮਿਲਾਕੇ ਲਿਖੀ ਗਈ ਹੈ/Revered style written Gurbani where the sloaks are topped with a pauri.
    3. This series of posts will follow segments arranged sequentially in this order of combinations.
    <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" LatentStyleCount="156"> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} </style> <![endif]-->
     
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    #1 Ambarsaria, Mar 18, 2013
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  3. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    You may enjoy the following rendition from Darbar Sahib Amritsar,


    ASA DI VAAR VIDEO GOLDEN TEMPLE BY BHAI SURINDER SINGH JODHPURI - YouTube

    The above saloks in this thread start around 5 minutes and 36 seconds from the beginning.

    I had the pleasure to hear Kirtan from the gentleman sitting to the right in our own house and he has his own Jatha right now. Wonderfully clear and crisp pronunciations and musical sounds. I could be wrong but I believe his name is Sukhdev Singh from Amritsar.

    Enjoy.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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    #2 Ambarsaria, Mar 20, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2013
  4. Kanwaljit Singh

    Kanwaljit Singh India
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    ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚੁ ਧਿਆਇਨਿ ਸਚੁ ਜੋ ਮਰਿ ਜੰਮੇ ਸੁ ਕਚੁ ਨਿਕਚੁ ੧॥
    Nanak the true ones, contemplate upon the true. Ones being born and dying, such false and totally false.

    Why does the notion of being born and dying make one false? Are the Khand Brahmand being talked about here free of destruction?

    Whereas other Shabads talk how the human life is like a vessel towards understanding Truth?

    ਮਾਣਸ ਜਨਮੁ ਦੁਲੰਭੁ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
    This human birth is so difficult to obtain; the Gurmukh obtains it.

    ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਹੋਇ ਚੁਲੰਭੁ ਜੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਭਾਇਆ ॥੧॥
    The mind and body are dyed in the deep red color of devotional love, if it pleases the True Guru. ||1||

    ਚਲੈ ਜਨਮੁ ਸਵਾਰਿ ਵਖਰੁ ਸਚੁ ਲੈ ॥
    He departs with his life embellished and successful, taking the merchandise of the True Name.

    ਪਤਿ ਪਾਏ ਦਰਬਾਰਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਬਦਿ ਭੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
    He is honored in the Darbaar, the Royal Court, of the Lord, through the Shabad, the Word of the True Guru, and the Fear of God. ||1||Pause||

    ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਸਚੁ ਸਲਾਹਿ ਸਾਚੇ ਮਨਿ ਭਾਇਆ ॥
    One who praises the True Lord with his mind and body, pleases the Mind of the True Lord.
    ਲਾਲਿ ਰਤਾ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨਿਆ ਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੨॥
    Attuned to the Beloved Lord, the mind is appeased, and finds the Perfect Guru. ||2||
    ਹਉ ਜੀਵਾ ਗੁਣ ਸਾਰਿ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਤੂ ਵਸੈ ॥
    I live, by cherishing Your Glorious Virtues; You dwell deep within me.
    ਤੂੰ ਵਸਹਿ ਮਨ ਮਾਹਿ ਸਹਜੇ ਰਸਿ ਰਸੈ ॥੩॥
    You dwell within my mind, and so it naturally celebrates in joyful delight. ||3||
    ਮੂਰਖ ਮਨ ਸਮਝਾਇ ਆਖਉ ਕੇਤੜਾ ॥
    O my foolish mind, how can I teach and instruct you?
    ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਇ ਰੰਗਿ ਰੰਗੇਤੜਾ ॥੪॥
    As Gurmukh, sing the Glorious Praises of the Lord, and so become attuned to His Love. ||4||
    ਨਿਤ ਨਿਤ ਰਿਦੈ ਸਮਾਲਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਮੁ ਆਪਣਾ ॥
    Continually, continuously, remember and cherish your Beloved Lord in your heart.
    ਜੇ ਚਲਹਿ ਗੁਣ ਨਾਲਿ ਨਾਹੀ ਦੁਖੁ ਸੰਤਾਪਣਾ ॥੫॥
    For if you depart with virtue, then pain shall never afflict you. ||5||
    ਮਨਮੁਖ ਭਰਮਿ ਭੁਲਾਣਾ ਨਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਰੰਗੁ ਹੈ ॥
    The self-willed manmukh wanders around, deluded by doubt; he does not enshrine love for the Lord.
    ਮਰਸੀ ਹੋਇ ਵਿਡਾਣਾ ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਭੰਗੁ ਹੈ ॥੬॥
    He dies as a stranger to his own self, and his mind and body are spoiled. ||6||
    ਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਇ ਲਾਹਾ ਘਰਿ ਆਣਿਆ ॥
    Performing service to the Guru, you shall go home with the profit.
    ਗੁਰਬਾਣੀ ਨਿਰਬਾਣੁ ਸਬਦਿ ਪਛਾਣਿਆ ॥੭॥
    Through the Word of the Guru's Bani, and the Shabad, the Word of God, the state of Nirvaanaa is attained. ||7||
    ਇਕ ਨਾਨਕ ਕੀ ਅਰਦਾਸਿ ਜੇ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਵਸੀ ॥
    Nanak makes this one prayer: if it pleases Your Will,
    ਮੈ ਦੀਜੈ ਨਾਮ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵਸੀ ॥੮॥੧॥੩॥
    bless me with a home in Your Name, Lord, that I may sing Your Glorious Praises.
     
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  5. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚੁ ਧਿਆਇਨਿ ਸਚੁ ॥ ਜੋ ਮਰਿ ਜੰਮੇ ਸੁ ਕਚੁ ਨਿਕਚੁ ॥੧॥
    Nanak the true ones, contemplate upon the true. Ones being born and dying, such false and totally false.

    Why does the notion of being born and dying make one false? Are the Khand Brahmand being talked about here free of destruction?

    Actually, it is not 'being born and dying' but dying and being born again. In other words, it is about reincarnation which is totally false.
     
    #4 Tejwant Singh, Mar 21, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2013
  6. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Kanwaljit Singh ji thanks for your post and raising of a point for sharing. I will review theese as two points from your post.
    Guru ji from understanding state or imply what follows. This of course is my understanding and I stand corrected.

    (1) notion of being born and dying
    - I read it as that we note a difference between being born and to die when we don't achieve the level of understanding of a Gurmukh/"one in tune to and looking up to the wisdom of the creator that surrounds us". For a Gurmukh being physically born and dying is of little to no consequence and the purpose of such state is achieved only when one becomes one with creation's ways and not be limited by our timelines, etc.
    - For example Gur Nnanak Dev ji is as alive for me as he was when he was physically alive. So the being "born and dying" became of no consequence as part of his living.
    (2) like a vessel towards understanding Truth?
    - This relates to us as human beings having the faculty to attempt learning so we reach and live a superior state of mind as a Gurmukh. So Guru ji flag that this physical living time does provide us with the opportunity to understand creation's ways and lose our ways of artificial timelines or other aspects.
    - By the way Guru ji do not assess such capabilities in other life or other forms in creation but simply recognize possibility of achievement for humans who become and live as Gurmukh.

    Just some thoughts and hope it helps in our mutual learning.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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  7. Luckysingh

    Luckysingh Canada
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    The lines in the shabad before-
    ''ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚੁ ਧਿਆਇਨਿ ਸਚੁ ॥ ਜੋ ਮਰਿ ਜੰਮੇ ਸੁ ਕਚੁ ਨਿਕਚੁ ॥੧॥
    Nānak sacẖ ḏẖi▫ā▫in sacẖ. Jo mar jamme so kacẖ nikacẖ.''

    all start with 'sach/sacha' and a referring to the qualities of God such as 'sacha tera karma, sacha tera nisan'
    'sacha teri sifat sachi salah''
    ..etc. are all praise and qualities of 'sach' the 'truth'

    Then in the last line, the reference is to us the manmukh who's life is detemined by birth and death, such that the manukh is 'False' in comparision.

    I don't see it as having anything about the negativites of birth/death or reincarnation for that matter, but it is about the manmukh who is subject to birth and death, who is 'False'.
    The manmukh who is born and dies is false rather than the birth and death itself being false !
     
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    #6 Luckysingh, Mar 21, 2013
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  8. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Lucky Singh ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    I agree with you that the whole Shabad talks about Sach. In fact the whole Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, our only Guru talks about that.

    Now let's get to the specific tuk which is in bold.

    ''ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚੁ ਧਿਆਇਨਿ ਸਚੁ ॥ ਜੋ ਮਰਿ ਜੰਮੇ ਸੁ ਕਚੁ ਨਿਕਚੁ ॥੧॥

    Your understanding about it is the following:

    I beg to differ with your conclusion. Our Gurus used subtleties in the Gurbani which are important for us to grab. Guru Nanak said "ਮਰਿ ਜੰਮੇ " not "ਜੰਮੇ ਮਰਿ".

    In other words Guru Nanak said, death and (re) birth, not who is subject to birth and death as you mentioned because every organic and inorganic material on this speck is subjected to birth and death. Even the Galaxies, Planets, Stars etc. etc. are given birth and have their deaths all the times. It is a given. This is part of the nature.

    By your changing the sequence from death to (rebirth), to birth and death changes everything. We have to be aware of these subtle things in Gurbani as our Gurus want us to, in order to create the understanding, so that we can put the message into practice in our lives.

    Following is the explanation by Prof. Sahib Singh which I looked up today and I happen to agree with Prof. Sahib.


    ਜੋ ਮਰਿ ਜੰਮੇ ਸੁ ਕਚੁ ਨਿਕਚੁ ॥੧॥
    Jo mar jamme so kacẖ nikacẖ. ||1||
    Those who are subject to birth and death are totally false. ||1|| (By Sant Singh Khalsa)
    ਮਰਿ = ਮਰ ਕੇ। ਮਰਿ ਜੰਮੇ = ਮਰ ਕੇ ਜੰਮੇ, ਭਾਵ, ਮਰਦੇ ਹਨ ਤੇ ਜੰਮਦੇ ਹਨ, ਜੰਮਣ ਮਰਨ ਦੇ ਗੇੜ ਵਿਚ ਪੈਂਦੇ ਹਨ। ਸੁ = ਉਹ ਜੀਵ। ਕਚੁ = ਨਿਕਚੁ ਨਿਰੋਲ ਕੱਚੇ ॥੧॥
    ਪਰ ਜੋ ਜੰਮਣ ਮਰਨ ਦੇ ਗੇੜ ਵਿਚ ਪਏ ਹਨ, ਉਹ (ਅਜੇ) ਬਿਲਕੁਲ ਕੱਚੇ ਹਨ (ਭਾਵ, ਉਸ ਅਸਲ ਜੋਤ ਦਾ ਰੂਪ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋਏ) ॥੧॥

    Page463

    http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=463&g=1&h=0&r=1&t=1&p=0&k=1&fb=0

    Thanks & regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  9. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    What do I know? Nonetheless, I want to share my own perspective on the discussion. Last night reading Tejwant's posts I became truly intrigued because it was obvious that the verse ਜੋ ਮਰਿ ਜੰਮੇ ਸੁ ਕਚੁ ਨਿਕਚੁ could be, and has been, translated in many ways... many contradictory ways.

    It is Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa, author of the "consensus" translation, which abounds on the internet, who uses the translation "subject to" death and rebirth, but nothing is there to justify his choice of words. I think whenever mar and jamme are used together, a reflex kicks in. What else could it mean but death and rebirth? Reincarnation! And in this case death even precedes birth in word order! So it has to be about reincarnation!

    I don't think so. I want to look at the verse in a few different ways. First thing, is to consider that all of gurbani is poetry and is meant to be sung out loud and sung with expression, not merely read. Just a read can contribute to misunderstanding.

    Because Asa di Vaar is poetry, ਜੋ ਮਰਿ ਜੰਮੇ ਸੁ ਕਚੁ ਨਿਕਚੁ has to be understood along with the verse just before it, ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚੁ ਧਿਆਇਨਿ ਸਚੁ They work poetically as a couplet... an indivisible pair of thoughts and words bound together by sound, tempo and meaning.

    Guru Nanak is making great use of contrast between those two lines. Because they are a pair, coupling limits possible meanings. The pairing also emphasizes internal rhyme, holds onto tempo, and preserves rhythm. I think that is why mar comes before jamme. There is more here than death followed by birth. Try this out!

    Nānak sacẖ ḏẖi▫ā▫in sacẖ. Jo mar jamme so kacẖ nikacẖ. Say it out loud! Nānak sacẖ ḏẖi▫ā▫in sacẖ... stop a little and then Jo mar jamme so...stop a moment... and then kacẖ nikacẖ.. You might hear this. dhian and jamme share an inner vowel sound which binds the two lines. To bind the sounds in each line using rhythm, jamme is placed where it is, after mar. It has nothing to do with being born again after you die. Then if you do take that slight pause before kach, nikach you can hear the conversation between the 2 verses. One line is saying Nanak says the ones (who) remember truth are true. And the second line answers back and says, The one who passes between death and life......stop a little..... is false, utterly false.

    Sant Singh Khalsa translates "dhian" as meditate. Here I also disagree. "Dhian" in this couplet means remember but not in the sense of "recall" or "retrieve a thought." Dhian means "keep always in your mind." This is consistent with many other verses in Gurbani where we are to savor the sat. Whoever does this is true to the truth. Whoever simply passes time between life and death is utterly false. By the choice of "dhian" we are given a mental image of how to remember, how some do, and others do not. Two contrasting images in a couplet of the true versus the false.

    Please forgive me if I am making much ado about nothing. But reciting the couplet with expression was what convinced me. It was possible to hear the underlying meaning. And here is something interesting, Bhai Manmohan Singh translates as does Tejwant Singh ji

    They who are born and die, are the falsest of the false. Nada about reincarnation. ਜੋ ਮਰਿ ਜੰਮੇ ਸੁ ਕਚੁ ਨਿਕਚੁ ॥੧॥ is about living a superficial life.
     
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    #8 spnadmin, Mar 22, 2013
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  10. Luckysingh

    Luckysingh Canada
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    Thanks Tejwant ji for explaining that 'mar jamme' refers to 'mar ke jamme'
    Because this makes all the difference and I have to totally agree with your interpretation.
    My gurmukhi skills are not upto scratch and I have only self taught myself the limited that I do know since I am a 3rd generation angraijh !!
    I was over 35 years old when I started to learn punjabi and I don't think that I've done too bad !

    I try and use each word for word as translated to get a deeper understanding. But when these sort of phrases arise you can very easily end up in the wrong direction.

    Once again thanks for the explanation0:)
     
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    #9 Luckysingh, Mar 22, 2013
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  11. Kanwaljit Singh

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    I think it also means that during our spiritual growth, we might think that we have made our minds and hearts strong. But one blow can make us 'die' or destroy the fort. And we are reborn, back as feeble as an egg shell. We are weak again, we have to grow strong spiritually again. Blessed are those free of this cycle!
     
  12. Ambarsaria

    Ambarsaria Canada
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    Just heads up in terms of how I come about to post.


    1. I read the bani and listen to musical rendition
    2. I take Manmohan Singh ji, Sant Singh Khalsa ji and Prof. Sahib Singh ji's understanding as in below and add my own understanding thereof,
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    3. Most of the times I end up with Prof. Sahib Singh ji's views and interpretation. This however is not blindly so as at occasions I find Manmohan Singh ji more to the point and in line with my own understanding.

    4. For brevity I take out Devnagri, Bhai Manmohan Singh and Sant Singh Khalsa ji's writings out. I also take out Prof. Sahib Singh ji's elaboration on word meanings.

    5. I do review English words against the usage by Sant Singh Khalsa ji. At times I am co-incident with him and many a times not so.

    6. I join couplets and re-arrange all.

    7. There goes the post after that.
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    In case it allows for better sharing or possible suggestions from yourselves, if, I should keep certain additional items in the postings or leave as is in the future.

    Sat Sri Akal.
     
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    #11 Ambarsaria, Mar 22, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2013
  13. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    I am impressed Ambarsaria ji. These are works of serious research. And you are stirring up a lot of discussion and interaction. Do not change what you are doing.

    You make some good points too. Sometimes one translation is better than the other on certain tuks. You are being flexible in your thinking. And using more than one source. Then putting it together, creating a synthesis, per your own analysis.
     
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  14. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Spnadmin ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    You write:

    This is also an interesting angle to look at. In other words: Dead Men Walking.

    This is the beauty of this very wonderful poetry called Gurbani, penned by many like minded geniuses. It is like a prism and we all look at the same prism from our own angles, however many translators think this prism as just a single dimensional triangle.This is where the gap between understanding Gurbani and translating it blindly without syntax lies.

    One thing I would like to point out about the rhyming as you mentioned in your post about this tuk is, - ਮਰਿ ਜੰਮੇ = ਮਰ ਕੇ ਜੰਮੇ-. ਮਰਿ ਜੰਮੇ is a compound phrase. ਮਰਿ here is the past tense. It means after death and ਜੰਮੇ means- to be born. If we invert it for the sake of the rhyme, then it could easily be written as- ਜੰਮ ਮਰੇ (compound phrase)= ਜੰਮ ਕੇ ਮਰੇ-which means died after been born as most of the translators have translated it.

    I agree with you about Sant Singh Khalsa's translation. However, he does not mention rebirth. Here it is: Those who are subject to birth and death are totally false. ||1|| (By Sant Singh Khalsa), which makes no sense to me because it is the natural cycle of life.

    I also agree with you about the word Dhian in Gurmukhi. It does mean "eternal focus" or as you said, "keep always in your mind." 'Meditation' makes no sense for Dhian.

    Thanks for making me think aloud.

    Regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
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    #13 Tejwant Singh, Mar 22, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2013
  15. Tejwant Singh

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    Ambarsaria ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    I am in awe with your love and dedication. I wish I had a kernel of what you have. Your sheer passion for Gurbani keeps making my life a bit richer than before and I am thankful to you for that. It is the gratitude that can not be paid back. No one can un-ring the bell that you have rung in me, or shall I say ਰੰਗ?:)

    Regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
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    #14 Tejwant Singh, Mar 22, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2013

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