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Interfaith Dialogues
14 Bad Justifications For Religion
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<blockquote data-quote="Arvind" data-source="post: 51042" data-attributes="member: 245"><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Dear Dave,</span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Although I am not the original writer of the article, but I am going to share my thoughts with you. You have raised good points, and I appreciate your time for sharing those. In my embedded (bolded) reply, I have included some Gurmukhi quotes in brackets and a quick translation of those for your benefit.</span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">At any time, please do not take my writings as a justification for the 14 points or as a denial of your rationales… consider those as a question to all of us – How about having a religion which has this or that…. </span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Due to time constraint, I could write about a few points only… I will get back sooner after your initial response.</span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Thanks for reading.</span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Sincerely, Arvind.</span></span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">I saw the post "14 good reasons society needs religion", and have this response to it. Since it was originally posted in lots of Christian forums, there are lots of references to Christianity. I traced the post to this website. </span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">(1) Religion helps to regulate our conduct and behaviour in society by </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">providing a set of morals and value-system for human existence. </span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">I would argue that simply living with other people in any society </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">forces all involved to adopt a system of values, a set of compromises, </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">agreements, and social obligations, in order to maintain peace in the </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">society. All religions provide is a different form of these social </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">contracts. </span></span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">Our values are human values. Religions always try to take credit for </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">the values that most human societies have in common, when in fact, they </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">are so universal that they predate and transscend religious values. </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">Christianity, for example, was easily adopted by the Romans, primarily </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">because it's values were perceived as being very similar to what most </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">Romans already beleived. </span></span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p><strong><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">How about having a religion which teaches that the supreme religion is to work selflessly, and keep the one and only one creator in mind always. (Ref: Sarab dharam mein shreshtra dharam, har ko naam jap nirmal karam)?</span></span></strong></p><p> </p><p><strong><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">How about having a religion whose founding tenets are</span></span></strong></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Earn an honest living (Kirat Karni)</span></strong></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Remember the Creator always (Naam Japna)</span></strong></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Share the belongings with others (Vand Chakna)</span></strong></li> </ul><p></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">(2) Religion guides our actions in life, putting a check on criminal </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">tendency in human nature. </span></span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">It has never been established as a fact, that human nature tends </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">towards criminal behavior. Of course, when a religion declares which </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">things are crimes and which aren't this can be a whole different ball </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">game. Take for example religions which actively persecute other </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">religions (like Christians who Persecuted Jews for centuries). When </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">your religion condones terrible actions against unbelievers, is it only </span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">approving what would be crimes in otherwise more secular societies. Of </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">course, it works the other way, too. When a religion can declare </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">certain things to be crimes, which would otherwise not be crimes in </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">secular societies, more criminals can easily be created by the adoption </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">of laws based on these religions. </span></span></p><p> </p><p><strong><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">As briefed in point 1 above, those principles tend to guide actions in life. “Criminal” is a heavy word whose meaning is not yet clear to me as its meaning changes depending on social cluster or land-rules, so no comments. </span></span></strong></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">(3) A true religion will ensure peaceful co-existence,love and harmony </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">among human beings. </span></span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">This is an interesting statement, because if this is true, then we have </span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">never really seen any true religions. All of the world's major </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">religions have struggled against each other for dominance over socieity </span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">for millenia. No religion can claim to ensure peace, love, and harmony, </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">because religions are practiced by people, and people make mistakes. </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">When a religion condemns groups of people (such as unbelievers or </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">homosexuals), and even asks that they be executed or physically </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">punished, it is not calling for peace, but tyrrany. </span></span></p><p> </p><p><strong><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">How about having a religion which teaches – The only race is mankind himself (Manas ki jaat sabey eke pehchanbo)? This leads to everyone’s interconnection with the thread of love, because there is no discrimination based on race, color, caste, gender, age… Most of the problems around are due to power struggle or desire to prove supremacy. But what if the Guru of a religion calls Himself the servant of the servants, which means there is no ego around… hence a great harmony in our world.</span></span></strong></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">(4) Religion keeps our feet firmly planted on the ground even when our </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">heads are up in clouds because of fast-moving technology resulting in </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">hectic and stressful lifestyle. </span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">Does this statement even make rational sense? If one's head is in the </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">clouds, it's generally understood that the person's thoughts are </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">wandering, that they are not focused, that they are daydreaming. How </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">does religion keep a person's feet planted (and planted in what? </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">Reality? Morality? Just what are one's feet kept firmly planted in?) </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">when a person's thoughts are elsewhere? </span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">This statement also seems to blame modern technology for creating </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">stress, even though the opposite is actually the case. Machines and </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">computers save people lots of time, work, and effort, allowing us more </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">liesure time. You don't get fat sitting in front of a TV or computer </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">because it's stressful work. You get fat because it's liesure. </span></span></p><p> </p><p><strong><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">How about having a religion which teaches to uproot ego within self and asks for submitting oneself to the Guru?</span></span></strong></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">(5) A true religion gives you a clear conscience while performing an </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">action or taking a difficult decision,like resorting to arms in </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">self-defence or in war. </span></span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">More likely, it gives you a clear conscience when murdering unbelievers </span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">and their children, blowing up abortion clinics and shooting doctors </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">who provide abortions. It gives you a clear conscience when taking </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">civil rights away from groups of people like atheists, gays, and Jews. </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">It gave Nazis clear conscience when they persecuted and murdered </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">millions of Jews, and gives Americans a clear conscience when killing </span></span></p><p><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: black">Muslims, while calling them "rag-heads". </span></span></p><p> </p><p> </p><p><strong><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Remember when a religion originates, after some time (centuries), its followers keep on finding loopholes in the original teachings according to their own (perhaps intentional) misinterpretation, and start suiting religion as per their desires. Some even justify the wrong actions by giving reference to their Guru’s teachings by misinterpreting! And then an ignorant sees this misinterpreter being a representative, and then falsify everyone in totality.</span></span></strong></p><p><strong><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Question: Where have the things gone wrong? The teacher, his teachings or followers!</span></span></strong></p><p> </p><p><strong><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">How about having a religion which teaches that When all peaceful means fail, it is righteous to raise a sword? Remember peace, harmony, freedom of expression is the FIRST thing all the time.</span></span></strong></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Arvind, post: 51042, member: 245"] [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Dear Dave,[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Although I am not the original writer of the article, but I am going to share my thoughts with you. You have raised good points, and I appreciate your time for sharing those. In my embedded (bolded) reply, I have included some Gurmukhi quotes in brackets and a quick translation of those for your benefit.[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]At any time, please do not take my writings as a justification for the 14 points or as a denial of your rationales… consider those as a question to all of us – How about having a religion which has this or that…. [/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Due to time constraint, I could write about a few points only… I will get back sooner after your initial response.[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Thanks for reading.[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Sincerely, Arvind.[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]I saw the post "14 good reasons society needs religion", and have this response to it. Since it was originally posted in lots of Christian forums, there are lots of references to Christianity. I traced the post to this website. [/FONT][/COLOR] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black](1) Religion helps to regulate our conduct and behaviour in society by [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]providing a set of morals and value-system for human existence. [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]I would argue that simply living with other people in any society [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]forces all involved to adopt a system of values, a set of compromises, [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]agreements, and social obligations, in order to maintain peace in the [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]society. All religions provide is a different form of these social [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]contracts. [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]Our values are human values. Religions always try to take credit for [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]the values that most human societies have in common, when in fact, they [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]are so universal that they predate and transscend religious values. [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]Christianity, for example, was easily adopted by the Romans, primarily [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]because it's values were perceived as being very similar to what most [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]Romans already beleived. [/COLOR][/FONT] [B][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]How about having a religion which teaches that the supreme religion is to work selflessly, and keep the one and only one creator in mind always. (Ref: Sarab dharam mein shreshtra dharam, har ko naam jap nirmal karam)?[/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]How about having a religion whose founding tenets are[/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [LIST] [*][B][FONT=Verdana]Earn an honest living (Kirat Karni)[/FONT][/B] [*][B][FONT=Verdana]Remember the Creator always (Naam Japna)[/FONT][/B] [*][B][FONT=Verdana]Share the belongings with others (Vand Chakna)[/FONT][/B][/LIST] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black](2) Religion guides our actions in life, putting a check on criminal [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]tendency in human nature. [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]It has never been established as a fact, that human nature tends [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]towards criminal behavior. Of course, when a religion declares which [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]things are crimes and which aren't this can be a whole different ball [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]game. Take for example religions which actively persecute other [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]religions (like Christians who Persecuted Jews for centuries). When [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]your religion condones terrible actions against unbelievers, is it only [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]approving what would be crimes in otherwise more secular societies. Of [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]course, it works the other way, too. When a religion can declare [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]certain things to be crimes, which would otherwise not be crimes in [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]secular societies, more criminals can easily be created by the adoption [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]of laws based on these religions. [/COLOR][/FONT] [B][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]As briefed in point 1 above, those principles tend to guide actions in life. “Criminal” is a heavy word whose meaning is not yet clear to me as its meaning changes depending on social cluster or land-rules, so no comments. [/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black](3) A true religion will ensure peaceful co-existence,love and harmony [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]among human beings. [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]This is an interesting statement, because if this is true, then we have [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]never really seen any true religions. All of the world's major [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]religions have struggled against each other for dominance over socieity [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]for millenia. No religion can claim to ensure peace, love, and harmony, [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]because religions are practiced by people, and people make mistakes. [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]When a religion condemns groups of people (such as unbelievers or [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]homosexuals), and even asks that they be executed or physically [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]punished, it is not calling for peace, but tyrrany. [/COLOR][/FONT] [B][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]How about having a religion which teaches – The only race is mankind himself (Manas ki jaat sabey eke pehchanbo)? This leads to everyone’s interconnection with the thread of love, because there is no discrimination based on race, color, caste, gender, age… Most of the problems around are due to power struggle or desire to prove supremacy. But what if the Guru of a religion calls Himself the servant of the servants, which means there is no ego around… hence a great harmony in our world.[/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black](4) Religion keeps our feet firmly planted on the ground even when our [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]heads are up in clouds because of fast-moving technology resulting in [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]hectic and stressful lifestyle. [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]Does this statement even make rational sense? If one's head is in the [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]clouds, it's generally understood that the person's thoughts are [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]wandering, that they are not focused, that they are daydreaming. How [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]does religion keep a person's feet planted (and planted in what? [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]Reality? Morality? Just what are one's feet kept firmly planted in?) [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]when a person's thoughts are elsewhere? [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]This statement also seems to blame modern technology for creating [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]stress, even though the opposite is actually the case. Machines and [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]computers save people lots of time, work, and effort, allowing us more [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]liesure time. You don't get fat sitting in front of a TV or computer [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]because it's stressful work. You get fat because it's liesure. [/COLOR][/FONT] [B][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]How about having a religion which teaches to uproot ego within self and asks for submitting oneself to the Guru?[/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black](5) A true religion gives you a clear conscience while performing an [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]action or taking a difficult decision,like resorting to arms in [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]self-defence or in war. [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]More likely, it gives you a clear conscience when murdering unbelievers [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]and their children, blowing up abortion clinics and shooting doctors [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]who provide abortions. It gives you a clear conscience when taking [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]civil rights away from groups of people like atheists, gays, and Jews. [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]It gave Nazis clear conscience when they persecuted and murdered [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]millions of Jews, and gives Americans a clear conscience when killing [/COLOR][/FONT] [FONT=Verdana][COLOR=black]Muslims, while calling them "rag-heads". [/COLOR][/FONT] [B][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Remember when a religion originates, after some time (centuries), its followers keep on finding loopholes in the original teachings according to their own (perhaps intentional) misinterpretation, and start suiting religion as per their desires. Some even justify the wrong actions by giving reference to their Guru’s teachings by misinterpreting! And then an ignorant sees this misinterpreter being a representative, and then falsify everyone in totality.[/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Question: Where have the things gone wrong? The teacher, his teachings or followers![/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]How about having a religion which teaches that When all peaceful means fail, it is righteous to raise a sword? Remember peace, harmony, freedom of expression is the FIRST thing all the time.[/FONT][/COLOR][/B] [/QUOTE]
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14 Bad Justifications For Religion
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