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ਰਾਗੁ ਗੋਂਡ | Raag Gond
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Solhe (1020-1033)
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Gurbani (1118-1123)
Bhagat Bani (1123-1124)
ਰਾਗੁ ਭੈਰਉ | Raag Bhairo
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Partaal (1153)
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Swaiyyae in Praise of Gurus
Shaloks in Addition To Vaars
Shalok Ninth Mehl
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ਰਾਗ ਮਾਲਾ, Raag Maalaa
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14 Bad Justifications For Religion
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<blockquote data-quote="Psycho Dave" data-source="post: 51029" data-attributes="member: 4474"><p>I saw the post "14 good reasons society needs religion", and have this response to it. Since it was originally posted in lots of Christian forums, there are lots of references to Christianity. I traced the post to this website. </p><p> </p><p>(1) Religion helps to regulate our conduct and behaviour in society by </p><p>providing a set of morals and value-system for human existence. </p><p> </p><p>I would argue that simply living with other people in any society </p><p>forces all involved to adopt a system of values, a set of compromises, </p><p>agreements, and social obligations, in order to maintain peace in the </p><p>society. All religions provide is a different form of these social </p><p>contracts. </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Our values are human values. Religions always try to take credit for </p><p>the values that most human societies have in common, when in fact, they </p><p>are so universal that they predate and transscend religious values. </p><p>Christianity, for example, was easily adopted by the Romans, primarily </p><p>because it's values were perceived as being very similar to what most </p><p>Romans already beleived. </p><p> </p><p>(2) Religion guides our actions in life, putting a check on criminal </p><p>tendency in human nature. </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>It has never been established as a fact, that human nature tends </p><p>towards criminal behavior. Of course, when a religion declares which </p><p>things are crimes and which aren't this can be a whole different ball </p><p>game. Take for example religions which actively persecute other </p><p>religions (like Christians who Persecuted Jews for centuries). When </p><p>your religion condones terrible actions against unbelievers, is it only </p><p> </p><p>approving what would be crimes in otherwise more secular societies. Of </p><p>course, it works the other way, too. When a religion can declare </p><p>certain things to be crimes, which would otherwise not be crimes in </p><p>secular societies, more criminals can easily be created by the adoption </p><p>of laws based on these religions. </p><p> </p><p>(3) A true religion will ensure peaceful co-existence,love and harmony </p><p>among human beings. </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>This is an interesting statement, because if this is true, then we have </p><p> </p><p>never really seen any true religions. All of the world's major </p><p>religions have struggled against each other for dominance over socieity </p><p> </p><p>for millenia. No religion can claim to ensure peace, love, and harmony, </p><p>because religions are practiced by people, and people make mistakes. </p><p>When a religion condemns groups of people (such as unbelievers or </p><p>homosexuals), and even asks that they be executed or physically </p><p>punished, it is not calling for peace, but tyrrany. </p><p> </p><p>(4) Religion keeps our feet firmly planted on the ground even when our </p><p>heads are up in clouds because of fast-moving technology resulting in </p><p>hectic and stressful lifestyle. </p><p> </p><p>Does this statement even make rational sense? If one's head is in the </p><p>clouds, it's generally understood that the person's thoughts are </p><p>wandering, that they are not focused, that they are daydreaming. How </p><p>does religion keep a person's feet planted (and planted in what? </p><p>Reality? Morality? Just what are one's feet kept firmly planted in?) </p><p>when a person's thoughts are elsewhere? </p><p> </p><p>This statement also seems to blame modern technology for creating </p><p>stress, even though the opposite is actually the case. Machines and </p><p>computers save people lots of time, work, and effort, allowing us more </p><p>liesure time. You don't get fat sitting in front of a TV or computer </p><p>because it's stressful work. You get fat because it's liesure. </p><p> </p><p>(5) A true religion gives you a clear conscience while performing an </p><p>action or taking a difficult decision,like resorting to arms in </p><p>self-defence or in war. </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>More likely, it gives you a clear conscience when murdering unbelievers </p><p> </p><p>and their children, blowing up abortion clinics and shooting doctors </p><p>who provide abortions. It gives you a clear conscience when taking </p><p>civil rights away from groups of people like atheists, gays, and Jews. </p><p>It gave Nazis clear conscience when they persecuted and murdered </p><p>millions of Jews, and gives Americans a clear conscience when killing </p><p>Muslims, while calling them "rag-heads". </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>(6) Religion ensures balance in a life where negative social influences </p><p>can be increasingly disruptive,immoral and corruptive for the mind. </p><p> </p><p>But what if the negative social influence is caused by religion? There </p><p>are plenty of cases where religious movements cause chaos and havoc in </p><p>otherwise peaceful places. When Christianity became the official </p><p>religion of the Roman Empire, it wasn't long before the Christians in </p><p>power began to persecute pagans and threaten them with violence and </p><p>death if they didn't convert. The City of Alexandria, Egypt was laid to </p><p> </p><p>ruin merely because the pagans refused to turn over Jews to the </p><p>Christians, who wanted to persecute them. Modern day Americans, in </p><p>Pontotoc, Mississippi, created turmoil in their town when a single </p><p>family complained that their children were being indoctrinated into </p><p>Christian Fundamentalism in their public school. The court agreed that </p><p>the local schools were indoctrinating kids into a specific religious </p><p>sect, and found in favor of the family. The whole community rose up and </p><p>persecuted this family, got their employers to fire the parents, and </p><p>basically turned their lives into a living hell, all with a clear </p><p>conscience. Think of how many religious people have murdered </p><p>unbelievers with a clear conscience over the centuries. </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>(7) As a science of self-improvement,religion offers a therapeutic and </p><p>success-oriented lifestyle,a victorious way of life. </p><p> </p><p>If this is true, we should be able to see results. There are no studies </p><p>that show that people from one particular religion generally live </p><p>better than people of other religions (or no religions). If anything, </p><p>studies have shown that the diet, environment, and exercise are the </p><p>factors which lead to healthy living. </p><p> </p><p>(8) Religion prevents deterioration of the mind due to dehumanization </p><p>and desensitization caused by highly mechanized modern living, thus </p><p>providing stability. </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>This is totally false. If anything, religion has a longer track record </p><p>of dehumanizing people (such as the way that Christians dehumanized </p><p>Jews and muslims, and the way Hindus and Muslims dehumanize each </p><p>other), and desensitizing people (Christianity practically invented </p><p>most forms of torture during the inquisition) to treating others poorly </p><p>-- especially treating unbelievers, women, and gay people as </p><p>second-class citizens. </p><p> </p><p>(9) True religion is the manifestation of mercy - God's mercy for His </p><p>Creation and man's mercy towards his fellow-beings and </p><p>environment(Creation). </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>How does mercy manifest itself in the stoning to death of people for </p><p>being unbelievers, or for being gay? How does mercy play into the call </p><p>to slaughter people of an opposing religion? History is full of </p><p>examples of religious people murdering others, and intimidating </p><p>witnesses who appealed to secular authorities for justice. Most </p><p>recently, Gudjarat, India, where survivors of a religious massacre were </p><p> </p><p>threatened and intimidated to the point that they refused to testify to </p><p> </p><p>the authorities out of fear of their lives. Most importantly, how does </p><p>Mercy manifest itself when one decides to bomb an abortion clinic? </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>(10) Religion prevents us from being carried away by the tides of the </p><p>times, because a true religion has an eternal value-system. </p><p> </p><p>This is fairly true, as far as I can see it. But my spin on this is </p><p>that religions tend to keep people thinking in a medieval or even a </p><p>bronze-age mode of thinking, where people are not concerned with modern </p><p> </p><p>concepts like civil rights, fairness, or cooperation. Religious, </p><p>bronze-age mentality has no compromise, does not accept that </p><p>unbelievers have the same rights, and that women are weak, an </p><p>therefore, property. This is an eternal value system, as it has been </p><p>with us for centuries, and as far as I can tell, it's long overdue for </p><p>an upgrade to a 21st century values system. </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>(11) True religion protects the human rights of everyone and prevents </p><p>their violation. </p><p> </p><p>Again -- it's not been shown hisorically. If Christianity were "the </p><p>true religion", then Jews' rights were not violated when Christians </p><p>tortured them during the inquisition. organized religions have </p><p>traditionally opposed human rights activism, from giving women the same </p><p> </p><p>rights as men, to giving black people the same rights as whites, and to </p><p>giving Jews the same rights as Christians. Time and time again, it has </p><p>been religious people who fought to prevent human rights from being </p><p>equally spread. </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>(12) True religion ensures social justice,equality and security for all </p><p>its adherents. </p><p> </p><p>Well, if your religion controlls the society, and has control of the </p><p>law enforcement, you do not perceive injustice, when people who are </p><p>unbelievers are hurt by your religion. </p><p> </p><p>(13) True religion ensures a happy, holy, healthy mind in a healthy </p><p>body. </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>Religion has nothing to do with mental illness. the causes of mental </p><p>illness are complex, and no religion can effectively prevent the </p><p>biological, social, and circumstantial factors that cause mental </p><p>illness from occuring. That having been said, social pressures can </p><p>often cause mental problems for people. Religions use social pressure </p><p>to persuade people to give into the will of the faith, religious </p><p>leaders often condemn critics, unbelievers, or people who they think </p><p>are not faithful enough. The pressure to be accepted into the group or </p><p>to be accepted into the inner circle of the faith is often too great </p><p>for people to bear, and the result can often be mental illness. One can </p><p>easily see that there are very few atheists in mental hospitals, and </p><p>studies have been done of religion in mental hospitals. Nearly all the </p><p>patients are religious. Mental illnesses often manifest themselves in </p><p>perceptions of supernatural things -- hearing voices that the patient </p><p>thinks are gods, devils, or spirits, believing themselves to be the </p><p>messiah, or the antichrist, etc. </p><p> </p><p>(14) True religion provides for good governance of society and good </p><p>care of its citizens. </p><p> </p><p>There is not one case in history of this ever happening. Every single </p><p>time a religious society allowed their religion to dictate the </p><p>governance of society, the result has been injustice, wars, purges, </p><p>pogroms, and persecutions. Case and Point -- the Holy Roman Empire, </p><p> </p><p> </p><p>----------------------------------------</p><p>----------------------------------------</p><p></p><p></p><p>----------------------------------------</p><p>----------------------------------------</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Psycho Dave, post: 51029, member: 4474"] I saw the post "14 good reasons society needs religion", and have this response to it. Since it was originally posted in lots of Christian forums, there are lots of references to Christianity. I traced the post to this website. (1) Religion helps to regulate our conduct and behaviour in society by providing a set of morals and value-system for human existence. I would argue that simply living with other people in any society forces all involved to adopt a system of values, a set of compromises, agreements, and social obligations, in order to maintain peace in the society. All religions provide is a different form of these social contracts. Our values are human values. Religions always try to take credit for the values that most human societies have in common, when in fact, they are so universal that they predate and transscend religious values. Christianity, for example, was easily adopted by the Romans, primarily because it's values were perceived as being very similar to what most Romans already beleived. (2) Religion guides our actions in life, putting a check on criminal tendency in human nature. It has never been established as a fact, that human nature tends towards criminal behavior. Of course, when a religion declares which things are crimes and which aren't this can be a whole different ball game. Take for example religions which actively persecute other religions (like Christians who Persecuted Jews for centuries). When your religion condones terrible actions against unbelievers, is it only approving what would be crimes in otherwise more secular societies. Of course, it works the other way, too. When a religion can declare certain things to be crimes, which would otherwise not be crimes in secular societies, more criminals can easily be created by the adoption of laws based on these religions. (3) A true religion will ensure peaceful co-existence,love and harmony among human beings. This is an interesting statement, because if this is true, then we have never really seen any true religions. All of the world's major religions have struggled against each other for dominance over socieity for millenia. No religion can claim to ensure peace, love, and harmony, because religions are practiced by people, and people make mistakes. When a religion condemns groups of people (such as unbelievers or homosexuals), and even asks that they be executed or physically punished, it is not calling for peace, but tyrrany. (4) Religion keeps our feet firmly planted on the ground even when our heads are up in clouds because of fast-moving technology resulting in hectic and stressful lifestyle. Does this statement even make rational sense? If one's head is in the clouds, it's generally understood that the person's thoughts are wandering, that they are not focused, that they are daydreaming. How does religion keep a person's feet planted (and planted in what? Reality? Morality? Just what are one's feet kept firmly planted in?) when a person's thoughts are elsewhere? This statement also seems to blame modern technology for creating stress, even though the opposite is actually the case. Machines and computers save people lots of time, work, and effort, allowing us more liesure time. You don't get fat sitting in front of a TV or computer because it's stressful work. You get fat because it's liesure. (5) A true religion gives you a clear conscience while performing an action or taking a difficult decision,like resorting to arms in self-defence or in war. More likely, it gives you a clear conscience when murdering unbelievers and their children, blowing up abortion clinics and shooting doctors who provide abortions. It gives you a clear conscience when taking civil rights away from groups of people like atheists, gays, and Jews. It gave Nazis clear conscience when they persecuted and murdered millions of Jews, and gives Americans a clear conscience when killing Muslims, while calling them "rag-heads". (6) Religion ensures balance in a life where negative social influences can be increasingly disruptive,immoral and corruptive for the mind. But what if the negative social influence is caused by religion? There are plenty of cases where religious movements cause chaos and havoc in otherwise peaceful places. When Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire, it wasn't long before the Christians in power began to persecute pagans and threaten them with violence and death if they didn't convert. The City of Alexandria, Egypt was laid to ruin merely because the pagans refused to turn over Jews to the Christians, who wanted to persecute them. Modern day Americans, in Pontotoc, Mississippi, created turmoil in their town when a single family complained that their children were being indoctrinated into Christian Fundamentalism in their public school. The court agreed that the local schools were indoctrinating kids into a specific religious sect, and found in favor of the family. The whole community rose up and persecuted this family, got their employers to fire the parents, and basically turned their lives into a living hell, all with a clear conscience. Think of how many religious people have murdered unbelievers with a clear conscience over the centuries. (7) As a science of self-improvement,religion offers a therapeutic and success-oriented lifestyle,a victorious way of life. If this is true, we should be able to see results. There are no studies that show that people from one particular religion generally live better than people of other religions (or no religions). If anything, studies have shown that the diet, environment, and exercise are the factors which lead to healthy living. (8) Religion prevents deterioration of the mind due to dehumanization and desensitization caused by highly mechanized modern living, thus providing stability. This is totally false. If anything, religion has a longer track record of dehumanizing people (such as the way that Christians dehumanized Jews and muslims, and the way Hindus and Muslims dehumanize each other), and desensitizing people (Christianity practically invented most forms of torture during the inquisition) to treating others poorly -- especially treating unbelievers, women, and gay people as second-class citizens. (9) True religion is the manifestation of mercy - God's mercy for His Creation and man's mercy towards his fellow-beings and environment(Creation). How does mercy manifest itself in the stoning to death of people for being unbelievers, or for being gay? How does mercy play into the call to slaughter people of an opposing religion? History is full of examples of religious people murdering others, and intimidating witnesses who appealed to secular authorities for justice. Most recently, Gudjarat, India, where survivors of a religious massacre were threatened and intimidated to the point that they refused to testify to the authorities out of fear of their lives. Most importantly, how does Mercy manifest itself when one decides to bomb an abortion clinic? (10) Religion prevents us from being carried away by the tides of the times, because a true religion has an eternal value-system. This is fairly true, as far as I can see it. But my spin on this is that religions tend to keep people thinking in a medieval or even a bronze-age mode of thinking, where people are not concerned with modern concepts like civil rights, fairness, or cooperation. Religious, bronze-age mentality has no compromise, does not accept that unbelievers have the same rights, and that women are weak, an therefore, property. This is an eternal value system, as it has been with us for centuries, and as far as I can tell, it's long overdue for an upgrade to a 21st century values system. (11) True religion protects the human rights of everyone and prevents their violation. Again -- it's not been shown hisorically. If Christianity were "the true religion", then Jews' rights were not violated when Christians tortured them during the inquisition. organized religions have traditionally opposed human rights activism, from giving women the same rights as men, to giving black people the same rights as whites, and to giving Jews the same rights as Christians. Time and time again, it has been religious people who fought to prevent human rights from being equally spread. (12) True religion ensures social justice,equality and security for all its adherents. Well, if your religion controlls the society, and has control of the law enforcement, you do not perceive injustice, when people who are unbelievers are hurt by your religion. (13) True religion ensures a happy, holy, healthy mind in a healthy body. Religion has nothing to do with mental illness. the causes of mental illness are complex, and no religion can effectively prevent the biological, social, and circumstantial factors that cause mental illness from occuring. That having been said, social pressures can often cause mental problems for people. Religions use social pressure to persuade people to give into the will of the faith, religious leaders often condemn critics, unbelievers, or people who they think are not faithful enough. The pressure to be accepted into the group or to be accepted into the inner circle of the faith is often too great for people to bear, and the result can often be mental illness. One can easily see that there are very few atheists in mental hospitals, and studies have been done of religion in mental hospitals. Nearly all the patients are religious. Mental illnesses often manifest themselves in perceptions of supernatural things -- hearing voices that the patient thinks are gods, devils, or spirits, believing themselves to be the messiah, or the antichrist, etc. (14) True religion provides for good governance of society and good care of its citizens. There is not one case in history of this ever happening. Every single time a religious society allowed their religion to dictate the governance of society, the result has been injustice, wars, purges, pogroms, and persecutions. Case and Point -- the Holy Roman Empire, ---------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- [/QUOTE]
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14 Bad Justifications For Religion
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