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What use is it to believe everything?

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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 23-Mar-2012, 15:32 PM
harry haller's Avatar harry haller harry haller is offline
 
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What use is it to believe everything?

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Gurfateh

As you go through life you come across many people, some have strong opinions, some have no opinions, just like on this forum in fact!

Is it right to have no opinion? Is it right to believe in everything, to accept everything as a possibility? In my view those that commit to nothing, that always have an open mind, that embrace every possibility are in fact, nothing..
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/38251-what-use-is-it-believe-everything.html

Who are they? What do they stand for? what do they believe in? the answer is of course, everything, and nothing.

I have given much thought to those of multi faith, those that believe in all gods, in all paths, and I have come to the conclusion that although they may believe in everything, what in fact they believe in, is nothing.

Ask such a person any question, and you will get both sides of the argument, although this is helpful in accepting anothers point of view, it also means there is no conviction, no commitment,
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38251

We all have to believe in something, We all have to get off the fence and stand up and say, this is what defines me, this is who I am, sure it may change in time, sure we may even be wrong, but the journey to the truth, in my view, is not accepting everything in the hope that somewhere in there is the truth, but isolating and marking out the truth, and then embracing that, and that alone. Yes, it is a lot harder than a blanket acceptance, but I would rather be something than nothing, even if that something was wrong.



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Old 23-Mar-2012, 23:13 PM
Annie's Avatar Annie Annie is offline
 
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Re: What use is it to believe everything?

Haha, Harry ji. When I joined SPN I actually tried to write Everything And Nothing as my adherent religion, but I could not. Not enough space.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38251
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38251

I understand and agree with what youre saying, that a person should not indiscriminately observe all religions just to have his bases covered when he dies... What does he think, the Creator wont see right through that sort of trickery? But I would like to offer a different point of view. I find pieces of truth and many similarities in all major religions that I have studied. I want above all to know as much truth as I can, no matter whose holy book it comes from. Simran helps me decide what rings true to me, or at least I hope it does, and what I learn is not an illusion. I do not see the sense in picking a religion just to pick one.
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Old 24-Mar-2012, 04:30 AM
Parma's Avatar Parma Parma is offline
 
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Re: What use is it to believe everything?

As you go through life you come across many people, some have strong opinions, some have no opinions, just like on this forum in fact!
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38251

A point to you. If they have no opinions on this forum by your understanding? Why are you posting a question on here?

Is it right to have no opinion? Is it right to believe in everything, to accept everything as a possibility? In my view those that commit to nothing, that always have an open mind, that embrace every possibility are in fact, nothing..

I have read somewhere before the catholic faiths concept of god is it views god as a nothingness, that exsits everywhere, is that not a faith, a view, a religion? Many other faiths do as well, so are you rubbishing many faiths? Bringing your self down to the point of nothing is in fact one humble approach, but then it is to become one with that nothing that becomes apart of everything where the true enlightenment takes place. They are contradictions I know but the truth is the whole human life is a condradiction. You are born to live, yet you die. Only when the condradictions make sense do you realise without god it is all non-sense, it is a point of sanity a point of sobriety, were the mind elevates from the condradictions to the truth. Nothing is everything! You are a point of life, and life is the pendulum, the rights and wrongs you either swing this way or that way the point is to stay centred. In becoming that centred individual you are learning of who you are. Very psychological but very practical as well. The greatest discovery any man can make in their whole life. When that is found and you realise you are a concept no greater or lesser than anything else then hopefully you find happiness. The point that I hope every life will strive for constant peace


Who are they? What do they stand for? what do they believe in? the answer is of course, everything, and nothing.

Who are you? What do you stand for? You are not a perfect person if I were to say you stand for the truth, the truth is you will lie so their in all is another condradiction. Once you overcome the contradictions then you can establish yourself which is a human. Just the same as every other human in the world what makes you better or the person to sit on the seat of judgment. Same applies to religion as that is based on humanity, so it can only be based on human thinking

I have given much thought to those of multi faith, those that believe in all gods, in all paths, and I have come to the conclusion that although they may believe in everything, what in fact they believe in, is nothing.

Good they are on the approach to enlightenment. God exsists in everything.

Ask such a person any question, and you will get both sides of the argument, although this is helpful in accepting anothers point of view, it also means there is no conviction, no commitment,
Commitment does not come from conviction. It comes from an understanding expand your thoughts and there you will find your commitment


We all have to believe in something, We all have to get off the fence and stand up and say, this is what defines me, this is who I am, sure it may change in time, sure we may even be wrong, but the journey to the truth, in my view, is not accepting everything in the hope that somewhere in there is the truth, but isolating and marking out the truth, and then embracing that, and that alone. Yes, it is a lot harder than a blanket acceptance, but I would rather be something than nothing, even if that something was wrong.

Certain things will effect all individaully this point is too in-depth as you are trying to define a person. Ask most people and I think alot of people at the age of 80 yrs are still searching for that centre self yet. It is like me saying your a bad man then you go and do a good deed, so define yourself their and then are you good or are you bad? A lot of people go through life without feeling complete psychologically or physically its just a process of life as we are sikh learning until you find that centre and become khalsa, pure can not be defined but a peaceful individual in all situations of life.
Even when defending one’s self with the kirpan, you should be still at peace not fighting for hate, anger lust, and greed but for definite peace.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38251
Like Bruce Lee said even in the midst of a fight I do not think about the winning or losing I let nature take its course, think of the moment in hand that centre that peace.


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Old 24-Mar-2012, 06:34 AM
BhagatSingh's Avatar BhagatSingh BhagatSingh is offline
 
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Re: What use is it to believe everything?

Harry ji,
You have to define who you are and simultaneously be completely open to all possibilities.

Hahaha

Most people get stuck on surface level definitions of themselves e.g. religion, caste, creed, capital, etc. These are fine for interacting in the world. Needless to say, they form an important identity to have and adhere to.

When one starts to identify strongly with who they REALLY are, once they find out their actual self, once they find out the only thing that REALLY defines who they are, once they find out their true description, they become open to all things. They become an opening. Both sides of the argument are referring to a reality that neither argument captures in it's entirety. They become a space for these arguments to play around in, for the world to play around in.

Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38251
I am not talking about ignorant acceptance but acceptance based on knowing the reality, after careful study and contemplation. The ignorant one has no power to accept or reject, he does not know. He is like a child, just entered the new world, no power to accept, no power to reject, a simple openess to the world, with lots of learning. It is only with knowing you have power to accept and reject. Notice how when you start to mature and learn things, you start accepting and rejecting things. You might become very religious or a staunch atheist. You continue to grow and mature. There maybe a point where you know everything, and though you have all the power to accept and reject, you cannot actually accept or reject anything. You become a child again, open to all there is. Why does this happen? Because you are enlightened, that you know everything, you see that everything is talking about reality. You see it all. You see through the veil of duality (of taking sides). Here exists "knowing" in the pure form. Simply a knowing, peaceful knowing. The pure awareness of what is there to be known. "Knowing" in it's pure form is actually knowing nothing. It is transcending all knowings and non-knowings.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38251

It is all very confusing indeed. Knowing is not knowing. Defining is not defining. What the heck!?

Look it's simple: devote time to God, to society, do this, do that, rules, more rules, endless list of rules.

The word 'Abrahamic' comes to mind, does it not? This kind of structure is necessary even for someone who is very enlightened. To him the structure provided by his tradition is necessary. Because the enlightened one by definition is ignorant. He is on the fence. They can both enjoy any field. The only difference between him and somebody who is ignorant is that whereas the ignorant one is on the fence not seeing the fields, the enlightened one sees the wide open fields on both sides. It's pure freedom, he can go anywhere. He is everywhere.

So what I am saying is that you are very right but also dead wrong. icecreammunda haahha

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The intellect of the mind is like a drunken elephant. Whatever one utters is totally false, the most false of the false. - Guru Nanak, 351

Last edited by BhagatSingh; 24-Mar-2012 at 06:40 AM.
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Old 24-Mar-2012, 08:04 AM
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Re: What use is it to believe everything?

The word 'Abrahamic' comes to mind, does it not? This kind of structure is necessary even for someone who is very enlightened. To him the structure provided by his tradition is necessary. Because the enlightened one by definition is ignorant. He is on the fence. They can both enjoy any field. The only difference between him and somebody who is ignorant is that whereas the ignorant one is on the fence not seeing the fields, the enlightened one sees the wide open fields on both sides. It's pure freedom, he can go anywhere. He is everywhere.

Sorry Bhagat ji, I would just like to add a point on something here. When peace is obtained ignorance is obliterated as ignorance is obtained from not knowing but peace is obtained from knowing the truth! Only difference. Thankyou dont want to spoil your lovely posting I just forgot to mention something and you had written quite well on the matter so just adding my bit. Not having a pop at you or anything. Cheers
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Old 24-Mar-2012, 15:09 PM
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Re: What use is it to believe everything?

Parmaji

A point to you. If they have no opinions on this forum by your understanding? Why are you posting a question on here?

Having no opinions, is also an opinion, no?


I have read somewhere before the catholic faiths concept of god is it views god as a nothingness, that exsits everywhere, is that not a faith, a view, a religion?

I am not prepared to waste precious time and energy debating something that 'you have read somewhere', either submit a factual statement of the Catholic religion and then ask the question or debate 'things you have read somewhere' with someone else


Many other faiths do as well, so are you rubbishing many faiths? Bringing your self down to the point of nothing is in fact one humble approach, but then it is to become one with that nothing that becomes apart of everything where the true enlightenment takes place.

I want nothing from a faith that offers me enlightenment, the very seeking of enlightenment could be seen egoistical, the very talking about enlightenment as an end product muddies the waters hugely, surely best to go with Hukam and take whatever comes as good.

They are contradictions I know but the truth is the whole human life is a condradiction. You are born to live, yet you die. Only when the condradictions make sense do you realise without god it is all non-sense, it is a point of sanity a point of sobriety, were the mind elevates from the condradictions to the truth. Nothing is everything! You are a point of life, and life is the pendulum, the rights and wrongs you either swing this way or that way the point is to stay centred. In becoming that centred individual you are learning of who you are.

There is much talk of finding this centre to know who you are, I will tell you who you are, and you do not even need to find your centre, follow Hukam, rest is habit

Very psychological but very practical as well. The greatest discovery any man can make in their whole life. When that is found and you realise you are a concept no greater or lesser than anything else then hopefully you find happiness. The point that I hope every life will strive for constant peace


I take it the discovery of enlightenment and happiness is important to you, I have decided these are unimportant to me, the idea is to follow Hukam, and do your best within that Hukam, and then take all outcomes as good, be they happy or sad.

Who are you? What do you stand for? You are not a perfect person if I were to say you stand for the truth, the truth is you will lie so their in all is another condradiction. Once you overcome the contradictions then you can establish yourself which is a human. Just the same as every other human in the world what makes you better or the person to sit on the seat of judgment. Same applies to religion as that is based on humanity, so it can only be based on human thinking

Who am I? What do I stand for? I am something, and I stand for something. I can go into a casino and put 100 on number 23, it is either going to win or lose, and for a few moments I will lose myself in a flurry of thoughts, did I make the right decision, should I have gone for number 12, and I will either win, or I will lose. I would rather that, and leave penniless, or rich, than stay all night betting on every number, just so that I could win everytime, even though the odds would slowly whittle my money down in time, neither is the truth, but the latter is simply a waste of time.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38251

Good they are on the approach to enlightenment. God exsists in everything.


It is these sorts of soundbites I find unhelpful and confusing, sure they sound good, but in terms of real life pragmatic assistance they are largely useless. A belief in nothing is an Udasi path, which is fine if your Udasi.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38251

Commitment does not come from conviction. It comes from an understanding expand your thoughts and there you will find your commitment

more soundbites, we will never understand enough to find conviction without commitment, it is action versus mental gymnastics

Certain things will effect all individaully this point is too in-depth as you are trying to define a person. Ask most people and I think alot of people at the age of 80 yrs are still searching for that centre self yet. It is like me saying your a bad man then you go and do a good deed, so define yourself their and then are you good or are you bad? A lot of people go through life without feeling complete psychologically or physically its just a process of life as we are sikh learning until you find that centre and become khalsa, pure can not be defined but a peaceful individual in all situations of life.

My own experience is that I know no more than I did when I was in my twenties, I understand things better, we are born with knowledge, it is understanding we lack, as for good or bad, that is all relative, my own benchmark is that anything that takes you closer to the truth as per Hukam is good, and anything that takes you away from the truth, as per Hukam is bad, rather than everything is nothing, nothing is everything, and its all good

Even when defending one’s self with the kirpan, you should be still at peace not fighting for hate, anger lust, and greed but for definite peace.
Like Bruce Lee said even in the midst of a fight I do not think about the winning or losing I let nature take its course, think of the moment in hand that centre that peace.


I think we must take the utmost care that we do not lose ourselves in these mental gymnastics that convince some people they are enlightened, and try and keep our feet on the ground. Bruce Lee was an actor, who acted in films, whose fighting was choreographed, just what relevance is a quote from an actor who portrayed a fighter, against the scores of Nihangs that died in battle fighting in the ruthless manner that they were famed for?

There seems to be a great tendency in Sikhi to pray and meditate and find the calm, and let Creator do the rest, that is not the spirit of Sikhi I recognise, Sikhi to me is to find peace when situations allow, to find the spirituality, but when the time comes to fight, to raise arms, then you better fight with all your body and soul, or die in meditation.

We are not Gods, nor are we superpeople, we are just human beings who have been given a mandate, a Hukam, on how to live, it is not going to turn us into Gods, it is not going to turn us into immortals, it is just going to enable us to spend the rest of our days in relative peace, regardless what the world throws at us, that is the best we can hope for, anyone searching for enlightenment has already lost, anyone searching for happiness has already lost, each day is a lesson, each day we pass or fail, each day is all we have
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Old 24-Mar-2012, 17:42 PM
Parma's Avatar Parma Parma is offline
 
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Re: What use is it to believe everything?

I want nothing from a faith that offers me enlightenment, the very seeking of enlightenment could be seen egoistical, the very talking about enlightenment as an end product muddies the waters hugely, surely best to go with Hukam and take whatever comes as good.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38251

As you are not into enlightenment and personal development there is no point in discussing with you. Fine. So long as you are happy it is all that matters dude no need to think above your hukam I guess. One question I would consider though, is who gives you your Hukam? Anyway like you said you are at your station so long as your happy that is fine! winkingmunda
Who am I? What do I stand for? I am something, and I stand for something. I can go into a casino and put 100 on number 23, it is either going to win or lose, and for a few moments I will lose myself in a flurry of thoughts, did I make the right decision, should I have gone for number 12, and I will either win, or I will lose. I would rather that, and leave penniless, or rich, than stay all night betting on every number, just so that I could win everytime, even though the odds would slowly whittle my money down in time, neither is the truth, but the latter is simply a waste of time.

Like you said you just follow orders hukam, so really you dont stand for nothing, harry stop commenting that is an order! . It just shows you can pick a number does not mean you picked it with thought. Your analogy is thought provoking in that it would not matter if you betted on all or the one number if all you want to do is win then you would have realised there is no stratgy just go with the flow!
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38251


I am not prepared to waste precious time and energy debating something that 'you have read somewhere', either submit a factual statement of the Catholic religion and then ask the question or debate 'things you have read somewhere' with someone else

This is something I read in one of vouthons previous posts so sorry, i did try finding it through one of his previous posts, I dont have it to hand but maybe vouthon would like to elaborate further? Anyway just to show I am not lying!

Having no opinions, is also an opinion, no?
No it is not!!! Sorry, you are beyond my understanding. Thanks!

Last edited by Parma; 24-Mar-2012 at 19:00 PM.
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Old 24-Mar-2012, 19:49 PM
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Re: What use is it to believe everything?

Parmaji

As you are not into enlightenment and personal development there is no point in discussing with you. Fine. So long as you are happy it is all that matters dude no need to think above your hukam I guess. One question I would consider though, is who gives you your Hukam? Anyway like you said you are at your station so long as your happy that is fine!

I do not seek enlightenment, if I were to be enlightened I would not find this state of mind undesirable.Personal development and enlightenment are not mutually inclusive, I am not sure where you have made this judgement on regarding personal development. Hukam comes from the essence of Creator within, we all know what the right things to do or think are, the idea is to trust that Hukam. I never said I was happy with the situation, however I do think it is not Sikh like to want anything, only to do your best at what you know to be right and proper, that we can find from the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.


Like you said you just follow orders hukam, so really you dont stand for nothing, harry stop commenting that is an order! . It just shows you can pick a number does not mean you picked it with thought. Your analogy is thought provoking in that it would not matter if you betted on all or the one number if all you want to do is win then you would have realised there is no stratgy just go with the flow!
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38251

Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38251

There are many different ways to interpret the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, I interpret on the basis of no reincarnation, no meditation (vedic style), plenty of mental debate, and to live as you think. I find the mistake I have made in the past is to consider living as I think, but that only happens tomorrow, if it does not make sense today, then I run with what I know to be true and good. The practice of Gurbani is more important than the thinking of Gurbani, or even the study, in my view. That is what I stand for. Anyone who looks for enlightenment is by their very nature looking to win, you are contradicting yourself by suggesting we 'go with the flow'.

No it is not!!! Sorry, you are beyond my understanding. Thanks!

Aww your just saying that to stroke my ego! I would say to have no opinion is an opinion, why else would most opinion polls include a 'dont know' option? why for all the non opinionated people of course, we must be careful that these people never get in power, oh too late....
The thing to note about people with no opinion is that behind them are normally people with many opinions...
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Old 24-Mar-2012, 20:04 PM
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Re: What use is it to believe everything?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BhagatSingh View Post
Harry ji,
You have to define who you are and simultaneously be completely open to all possibilities. Agreed

Hahaha

Most people get stuck on surface level definitions of themselves e.g. religion, caste, creed, capital, etc. These are fine for interacting in the world. Needless to say, they form an important identity to have and adhere to. Agreed

When one starts to identify strongly with who they REALLY are, once they find out their actual self, once they find out the only thing that REALLY defines who they are, once they find out their true description, they become open to all things. They become an opening. Both sides of the argument are referring to a reality that neither argument captures in it's entirety. They become a space for these arguments to play around in, for the world to play around in. I agree to an extent, I spend a large amount of time playing around with arguments, but one should have an idea of ones current stand, for instance whilst I accept the potential pleasure in meditation, I also know the pandoras box that would be opened if I succumbed to such. My stand is one of denial, but not of dissuading.

I am not talking about ignorant acceptance but acceptance based on knowing the reality, after careful study and contemplation. The ignorant one has no power to accept or reject, he does not know. He is like a child, just entered the new world, no power to accept, no power to reject, a simple openess to the world, with lots of learning. It is only with knowing you have power to accept and reject. Notice how when you start to mature and learn things, you start accepting and rejecting things. You might become very religious or a staunch atheist. You continue to grow and mature. There maybe a point where you know everything, and though you have all the power to accept and reject, you cannot actually accept or reject anything. You become a child again, open to all there is. Why does this happen? Because you are enlightened, that you know everything, you see that everything is talking about reality. You see it all. You see through the veil of duality (of taking sides). Here exists "knowing" in the pure form. Simply a knowing, peaceful knowing. The pure awareness of what is there to be known. "Knowing" in it's pure form is actually knowing nothing. It is transcending all knowings and non-knowings.

I sense anti ego brother, and anti ego is not humility, it is ego but in a different direction. I can see why knowing everything is also knowing nothing, and it makes good reading, but in reality, this is not the case, good topic for another thread though!

It is all very confusing indeed. Knowing is not knowing. Defining is not defining. What the heck!?

Look it's simple: devote time to God, to society, do this, do that, rules, more rules, endless list of rules.

The word 'Abrahamic' comes to mind, does it not? This kind of structure is necessary even for someone who is very enlightened. To him the structure provided by his tradition is necessary. Because the enlightened one by definition is ignorant. He is on the fence. They can both enjoy any field. The only difference between him and somebody who is ignorant is that whereas the ignorant one is on the fence not seeing the fields, the enlightened one sees the wide open fields on both sides. It's pure freedom, he can go anywhere. He is everywhere.

So what I am saying is that you are very right but also dead wrong. icecreammunda haahha

What you are in fact saying is nothing! icecreamkaur

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The intellect of the mind is like a drunken elephant. Whatever one utters is totally false, the most false of the false. - Guru Nanak, 351
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