One Infinite Creator in Sikhism, What Does it Mean?

chazSingh · #91 (**permalink**) 16-Mar-2012, 18:25 PM

Hi Davinder Dhanjal,

I will try and explain the below from my own understanding and experiences.

Quote:

Originally Posted by davinderdhanjal

Ambarsaria ji,

To follow your questions I will use the same order of numbering as your examples in an attempt to put my thoughts over:

Creator as being a specific form- Japji Sahib explains the difference between human and God. As God is not born then all Ram/Krishna/Buddha/Christ/Mohamed are gods or prophets as the case may be because they were born. Granth Sahib quotes ‘darshan of Guru’ I would take from that – we have to invent a form to satisfy ourselves unless the state of mind to ‘see God’ is sublime feeling and peace of mind which an average human does not experience.

from my experience of Simran/mediation on God, it is best to not put any form on a Guru, person, prophet, image of god etc. Our destination is Sach Khand where there is no form. Any form used will eventually create an attachment to that form which you'll have difficulties passing when experiencing the formless.
On your internal journey to Sach Khand (its all internal), you may be blessed with darshans of the Gurus, Jesus, other Saints etc...but you will only see their pure light form. I haven't had any darshans as yet so i cannot tell you what this pure light form is like

Imagine raising your consciousness to a point where you feel connected to the whole universe, like in a dream you don;t feel like you have a body, but when you wake up all of a sudden you realise you are more than what you were in the dream..you feel connected to your whole self...imagine this on a universal scale. This is what we can obtain. when we know we are one with the one...what is there to be afraid of, who is there to be angry with, who are we to feel jelous of....if there is only ONE...and you can feel the ONE

Getting in touch with One Creator – the Creator is in each and every one of us and all things. So to get in touch with the creator is to awaken the Creator in one. That takes a lot of ‘work’ like starting with a rough diamond the final polished state – it needs sharp corners removed as the five thieves, keeping the Lord in mind all the time and being thankful for His support to take us to that state.

The biggest betrayel of organised religion is the belief that we need to 'find' god, or we are 'seperated' from god. Just like you said, he is within us...we can not get away from him. what can happen though, is we can 'forget' who we are...that we can forget that vastness of our actual being, that we can over our lifetimes 'forget' and start to think we are this limited, finite mind of ours. The mind is like a Drill...the drill was to be used by us to work within the creation. We are the controller of that drill.... only thing is we now think we are the drill...the drill controls us...a drill only knows how to operate in a finite way and to its own functions...the drill has gone wild and is punching holes all over the place...we need to gain control of this drill and realise that we are not the drill, but we are the driving force, the pure infinite consciousness that exists within.

When i say God is within us....this is my mind saying god is a seperate entity within us...the mind cannot fathom this. but the mind is a manufactured computer. Our true reality is that what we actually are is a conscios segment of the universal mind...we have unlimited infinte potential if we can but gain control and stop this wayward mind of ours.

3. About understanding infinite – what ever we use as an example is going to be one aspect of the Infinite. To keep it short and looking at it mathematically a 70kg person has 2.3x10^28 electrons, then there are 6 billion humans and if we use the same composition for argument sake the earth is 6^24kg, and the earth is one of the 9 planets of our sun. There are about 200 billion stars in our galaxy; there are at least 170 billion galaxies in our ever expanding universe. Need we go any further? This is just one aspect, others may be spiritual, sound, thought, and more I do not know. If electron is assumed as the smallest particle it is controlled and answers to the Lord. Human still has to find theories to explain its behaviour. One mathematical definition of infinity is ‘whole is a part of itself’. That would mean, in terms of electron example, the infinite is part of some combination of electrons! This combination may require a certain mental condition and chanting (sound) for its organisation. As we work up to more complex combinations the matter becomes more ‘visible’ but the behaviour more complex. May be this is a part of the quagmire gurus pointed out as to not ponder too much in trying to understand Infinite.

The universal mind consciousness (God) can create unlimited infiniate numbers of form...He just needs to think it. The infinate aspect of this we can not understand nor explain in a world where limits exists... The limits exists because we are limited by the mind that controls us....when we overcome the mind, and let our soul (pure godly consciousness) be the driver of our existance...then maybe then can we experience the infinate

I have created a thread for all that are wanting to and making efforts to understand themselves through simran and meditation and trying to conquer their 5 thieves.
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38220&goto=newpost

We can all share our experiences with each other

davinderdhanjal · #92 (**permalink**) 17-Mar-2012, 02:25 AM

Ambarsaria Ji - few points:
The use of ‘God’ and ‘gods’ is in the sense used in Vedas and Shastras and Old Testament. Gursikhs believe in God but not in gods.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/38210-one-infinite-creator-sikhism-what-does.html
Christianity confuses this issue by calling Jesus Christ son of God – so I add this into god category.
Second point
I don't believe that Guru ji and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji want us to invent a form. I realize and recognize your point about "average human" but I believe we should fight the temptation harder as the path may become.
The comment is vague to further the cause. What is the Darshan of the formless, indescribable, indefinable, invisible, infinite? For a mountain it may be another mountain, for a tree another tree so for human we may create a form that is human. It is not clear to me yet from my understanding of Granth Sahib to date.
Third point – Getting in touch with One Creator – one can only change oneself – not anything around. The creator as I define is narrowed to mathematical definition of infinity. If a body is made of trillions of cells or electrons etc. – it is a part of the infinite in my opinion it is a part of the Lord – may be only that which leaves the body when one dies. That is what may be called ‘part is bigger than the whole’ in mathematical terms.

Ambarsaria · #93 (**permalink**) 17-Mar-2012, 02:45 AM

Veer ji thanks for your post. Just one part I am not understanding of,

Quote:

Originally Posted by davinderdhanjal

..... it is a part of the infinite (1) in my opinion it is a part of the Lord – may be only that which leaves the body when one dies. That is what may be called ‘part is bigger than the whole’ in mathematical terms. (2)

I can relate to (1). It is like part of creator's imprint in all parts of the creation.
(2) I cannot see or understand unless one calls the whole a type of part. I don't see ourselves being such a part bigger than the whole, one creator.

If you could elaborate please.

You are knowledgeable and may have background greater than mine. One phrase that sticks in my mind ascribed to our Guru ji's or wisdom thereof is that,

"Hinduism is blind in both eyes"
- Physical God
- Multiple Gods
"Islam is Blind in One eye"
- Physical God or son of God
- But Single God

You don't have to but in case you know or can describe better.

Sat Sri Akal. mundahug

prakash.s.bagga · #94 (**permalink**) 17-Mar-2012, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davinderdhanjal

Ambarsaria Ji - few points:
The use of ‘God’ and ‘gods’ is in the sense used in Vedas and Shastras and Old Testament. Gursikhs believe in God but not in gods.
Christianity confuses this issue by calling Jesus Christ son of God – so I add this into god category.
Second point
I don't believe that Guru ji and Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji want us to invent a form. I realize and recognize your point about "average human" but I believe we should fight the temptation harder as the path may become.
The comment is vague to further the cause. What is the Darshan of the formless, indescribable, indefinable, invisible, infinite? For a mountain it may be another mountain, for a tree another tree so for human we may create a form that is human. It is not clear to me yet from my understanding of Granth Sahib to date.
Third point – Getting in touch with One Creator – one can only change oneself – not anything around. The creator as I define is narrowed to mathematical definition of infinity. If a body is made of trillions of cells or electrons etc. – it is a part of the infinite in my opinion it is a part of the Lord – may be only that which leaves the body when one dies. That is what may be called ‘part is bigger than the whole’ in mathematical terms.

Gursikh is only for his GuRu only.There is no cocept as GOD for a GuRsikh.
Gursikh lives with NAAM only.So for a Gursikh NAAM is everything.
Prakash.S.Bagga

Ambarsaria · #95 (**permalink**) 17-Mar-2012, 12:30 PM

Prakash Singh Bagga ji some comments of my understanding and thanks for your post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by prakash.s.bagga

Gursikh is only for his GuRu only.

Gur (Creator) sikh (Learner of) ====> Learner of the creator

GuRu ====> Teacher

There is no concept as GOD for a GuRsikh. ===> One Creator

Gursikh lives with NAAM only.

NAAM ====> Understanding (of the creator)

So for a Gursikh NAAM is everything. ===> For a learner of the creator, the creator's understanding is everything.

Prakash.S.Bagga

Sat Sri Akal.

davinderdhanjal · #96 (**permalink**) 17-Mar-2012, 15:36 PM

Ambarsaria Ji,
(2) I cannot see or understand unless one calls the whole a type of part. I don't see ourselves being such a part bigger than the whole, one creator.
Infinity is a very difficult concept to comprehend and rightly so it is attributed to the Lord God. I do not profess to know it well enough to teach others but ‘soul’ which I consider a part of a live person is not in our control and we are only when it is around.
If we take the body as a whole then the soul is part of it but it is ‘bigger’ than the whole as body can be mutilated and still live but soul is untouchable and overriding.
When the child in mother’s body it is alive (i.e. as an organ), and if you accept mother’s body and child as infinite number of electrons (or some smaller particles science may not have yet discovered), it may develop into a body and soul from these particles.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38210
I think, the child has the opportunity to modify the soul by listening to the Guru’s word and following its instructions. There comes a time when person cannot look after the body or soul and it returns to the Infinite to either stay or return as per the deeds. (I have here defined two infinites one related to the body and other related to Universe).

· "Hinduism is blind in both eyes"

Physical God
Multiple Gods

Hinduism believes in physical gods (although there is mention of One God as well in certain places) in fact it is understood they have 330,000,000 gods. These are in form of Rams, Krishans, Brahma etc. and then the deities that make the majority multiple gods.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38210
If I may quote Bhagvad Geeta XV.15, Sri Krishna says “I am whom the four Vedas seek to know; nay, it is I who am the author of the Vedant as well as the Knower of the Vedas”. So Hindu gods are humans behaving like God.
· "Islam is Blind in One eye"

Physical God or son of God
But Single God

Islam believes that any religion that is established, builds on the existing. Due to its proximity it takes all the founder members of Christianity as their own also and believes that Mohamed came to improve the religion. Because of Christ, who is considered to be Son of God also by Christianity – it is a physical god as we would understand as Christ was born and not God.
Islam, as Sikhi believes in One God.

prakash.s.bagga · #97 (**permalink**) 17-Mar-2012, 22:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambarsaria

Prakash Singh Bagga ji some comments of my understanding and thanks for your post.Sat Sri Akal.

Your comments are partially agreeable.
Prakash.s.Bagga

Randip Singh · #98 (**permalink**) 18-Mar-2012, 01:55 AM

I think its a symbient relationship. The creator is us, and we are in effect the creator, but the problem is, although the creator realises all of us, not all of us realise the creator.

Archived_member15 · #99 (**permalink**) 18-Mar-2012, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randip Singh

I think its a symbient relationship. The creator is us, and we are in effect the creator, but the problem is, although the creator realises all of us, not all of us realise the creator.

My dear brother Randip

Very true and beautifully put!

"...My Me is God, nor do I recognise any other Me except my God Himself...Divine light entered my heart from His love that did never fully wane, though indeed, dear, I can understand how a person’s faith can at times flicker, for what is the mind to do with something that becomes the mind’s ruin: a God that consumes us in His grace. I have seen what you want; it is there, a Beloved of infinite tenderness...He has never left you. It is just that your soul is so vast that just like the earth in its innocence, it may think, “I do not feel my lover’s warmth against my face right now.” But look, dear, is not the sun reaching down its arms and always holding a continent in its light? God cannot leave us. It is just that our soul is so vast, we do not always feel His lips upon the veil..."

- Saint Catherine of Genoa (1447-1510), Catholic mystic

"...As the Godhead is nameless, and all naming is alien to Him, so also the soul is nameless; for it is here the same God...To guage the soul we must guage it with God, for the Ground of God and the Ground of the Soul are one and the same...The knower and the known are one. Simple people imagine that they should see God, as if He stood there and they here. This is not so. God and I, we are one in knowledge..."

- Meister Eckhart (c. 1260 – c. 1327), Catholic Mystic & priest

"...In all faces, the Face of faces is veiled as a riddle. Howbeit unveiled it is not seen, until, above all faces, a man enter into a certain secret and mystic silence, where there is no knowing or concept of a face. This mist, cloud, darkness or ignorance, into which he that seeketh thy Face entereth, when he goeth beyond all knowledge and concept, is the state below which Thy Face cannot be found, except veiled; but that very darkness revealeth Thy Face to be there beyond all veils. Hence I observe how needful it is for me to enter into the darknesss and to admit the coincidence of opposites, beyond all grasp of reason, and there to seek the Truth, where Impossibility meeteth us..."

- Cardinal Nicolas of Cusa, (1401 – 1464) Catholic mystic