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Does Sikhism embrace Mysticism?

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embrace, magic, mystical, mysticism, sikhism
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 26-Nov-2011, 15:19 PM
Taranjeet singh's Avatar Taranjeet singh Taranjeet singh is offline
 
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Re: Does Sikhism embrace Mysticism?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by harry haller View Post
Gurfatehji



Does the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji have properties that elevate it above merely a written transcript, I am aware that it should not be worshipped, but cherished and respected as a living Guru, but does the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji have properties that one could call mystical?

I suppose to clarify this argument, one would have to debate whether the Gurus themselves had special powers, or mystical abilities, I would like to think the Gurus were human beings that had understood completely the point of Sikhi, and endured everything that they did with no other abilities than are open to you and me, if that is the case, then the 11th Guru, the living book , surely would embrace a similar vein that promoted enlightenment through understanding, study and practical implementation of knowledge through action, I believe there is nothing further than this, I would be most interested in anyone who felt mysticism in Sikhi
Thank you Harry Veer ji ,I am glad that you clarified.Title of the thread and the content are in perfect sync. in so far as your initial post is concerned. One has the right to be wiser with passage of time. I am also bit wiser after doing this thread. The thread is instrumental in initiating me to have a deeper reading of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Thanks for this as well. Yeah, we retain the right to differ occasionally and those occasions would be few, I believe.

Warm Regards!
TJS



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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 26-Nov-2011, 18:22 PM
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Re: Does Sikhism embrace Mysticism

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taranjeet singh View Post
The nine treasures and the miraculous spiritual powers come by contemplating the Immaculate Naam, the Name of the Lord. [220-19]

Those who meditate in remembrance on the True Guru, are blessed with wealth and prosperity, supernatural spiritual powers and the nine treasures.[1405-17]
As per forum TOS please post the full shabads in Gurmukhi and your understanding in English. This is necessary for full understanding of the shabad to allow others to come to their own understanding too. Quoting single lines takes the meaning out of context and can hamper true understanding of the shabad. Thank you.


Quote:
Your second part of the question relates to whether Gurus had mystical powers. I believe that they were Perfect Human being and self realized persons. Guru Nanak dev ji could turn the direction of the Mosque as per his convenience is an ample proof that Gurus were blessed with the super natural powers, the phenomenon of which we cannot explain.


Please see this thread. I hope you find it interesting http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sakhis...-in-mecca.html
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 26-Nov-2011, 18:39 PM
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Re: Does Sikhism embrace Mysticism?

I have just read the thread on Mecca, the impression I now get of Creator is not that of an energy that needs to impress anyone with a magic show, Creator made the rules, and Creator respects those same rules, anything less would be hypocritical, everything that has taken place, everything that will happen, if what we believe in to be true, is beautiful, mystical, logical, explainable, there are two sides to the coin, there are a million sides to the coin, a lack of mumbo jumbo makes things clearer, achievable, dispels the need for faith, faith is for miracles and the unexplainable, faith bridges the gap between what we know, and what we do not understand, better to work on understanding more than trying to deepen your faith, in my humble opinion
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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 26-Nov-2011, 19:30 PM
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Re: Does Sikhism embrace Mysticism

Quote:
Originally Posted by findingmyway View Post
As per forum TOS please post the full shabads in Gurmukhi and your understanding in English. This is necessary for full understanding of the shabad to allow others to come to their own understanding too. Quoting single lines takes the meaning out of context and can hamper true understanding of the shabad. Thank you.


Please see this thread. I hope you find it interesting http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sakhis...-in-mecca.html
Thank you, Sir, for reminding me of TOS. I shall post full shabads as desired in day or two as I shall have to do some home work. It shall help me also conceptualizing on Naam.
Thank you once again.

tjs
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 26-Nov-2011, 22:55 PM
Tejwant Singh's Avatar Tejwant Singh Tejwant Singh is offline
 
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Re: Does Sikhism embrace Mysticism?

Quote:
Originally Posted by harry haller View Post
Taranjeetji,

I agree with you, my title is poorly worded, however, I think we are grasping what mysticism means to each of us through the thread, and I am pleased to note that the mysticism that is deemed acceptable is not the asking of miracles, or the request to Creator to change the laws of physics, or indeed any of the magic shows one can view in the name of religion, so far, through this thread, I would say Sikh mysticism to me concentrates on the bond between Creator and Man, and nothing more, that is a kind of mysticism that I can embrace, and everyones answers have been hugely helpful
Harry ji,

Guru Fateh.

When the bond is created between Ik Ong Kaar and the Sikh, then there is no mystery left. It is an open love which is the most beautiful life changing metamorphosis that one feels the compulsion to share this goodness with the whole world.

Regards

Tejwant Singh
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 26-Nov-2011, 23:27 PM
Tejwant Singh's Avatar Tejwant Singh Tejwant Singh is offline
 
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Re: Does Sikhism embrace Mysticism?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambarsaria View Post
Bhagat Singh veer I am understanding of your post but this part I am so not built for,

Quote:
Thus through repitition of the Naam, or chanting it we can come to know God.
So I cannot comment as my belief is repeatedly chanting something has always an implied association to understanding/visualization before perhaps you lose your senses through exhaustion/enlightenment. So the starting point at times may determine where one ends up rather than euphoric exhaustion and a belief of enlightenment.

Hence I tend to perhaps little more on understanding before such as chanting. So when I see people chanting in Gurdwaras like "Waheguru Waheguru .........." I feel bewildered as to whether it is the sheep following the guide, copy analogy to yawning by unconsciously seeing others yawn, etc., without having an understanding. Perhaps it is people just want to rinse their mind by closing eyes and getting out of breath or hyper-ventilating. If it is enlightenment I will never get it. But then again it is quite possible I am missing something.

Sat Sri Akal.
Bhagat Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

I tend to agree with Ambarsaria ji on this one. In one of my other posts I said that one can repeat the name of Lady Gaga for 30 minutes and may feel good about it for a while. Repetition does have that effect but there is nothing mystic about it.

I remember when I used to visit the Dodra Vaheguru Jatha many moons ago, the importance on Vaheguru Simran was the first and the foremost. There was one hour of loud parroting of Vaheguru at 5 am and then 15 minutes of the silent simran. Once the loud simran stopped, one could hear more than half the sangat, which was in hundreds snoring and this was a daily affair. I am sure snoring during simran does not make anyone mystic.

Military training is based on the same concept where the repetition creates a second nature so one's actions have no hesitance, in this case, in the war zone. However, this has nothing to do with Sikhi and its Gurmat concept.

The repetition in Sikhi is like remembering the lessons given by our Father so we do things in a right way. That is why we read Gurbani again and again so that the concept is understood which can be used in our everyday lives.

Parroting something or anything mechanically is not a Sikhi concept in my opinion. And there is no mystery which can be discovered/found, nor can we come to know God who is omnipresent via chanting which is a nicer way to say parroting.
Quote:
"through repitition of the Naam, or chanting it we can come to know God"
.

Regards

Tejwant Singh

Last edited by Tejwant Singh; 27-Nov-2011 at 00:10 AM.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 26-Nov-2011, 23:32 PM
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Re: Does Sikhism embrace Mysticism?

Gurfatehji,

just a thought, moving beyond the actual manner of getting to this state, what are your thoughts on the actual state itself
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 26-Nov-2011, 23:50 PM
Ambarsaria's Avatar Ambarsaria Ambarsaria is offline
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Re: Does Sikhism embrace Mysticism?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BhagatSingh View Post
Ambarsaria ji,
You use the word understanding...
What is this an understanding of? (having an understanding of what?)
Bhagat Singh ji that is easy to answer for me and here it goes in point form,

Understanding Definition for me: What, where, when, who and why


Understanding Goal in Sikhism
(called naam, waheguru, Guru, Gur, Prabh, Prabhu, etc.)
  • Of the creator with help from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
  • Of creation with help from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
  • Living in consonance with the understanding of the creator and creation so gotten and always developing further
    • Greater level of peace with self and others in creation through actions and decisions will reflect the level of one's understanding
    • Understanding will never be complete and one forever learns
    • Hence we will always make mistakes and the quantity may diminish over time through understanding
Sat Sri Akal

Last edited by Ambarsaria; 27-Nov-2011 at 00:11 AM.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 27-Nov-2011, 02:56 AM
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Re: Does Sikhism embrace Mysticism?

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Ambarsaria ji (and Tejwant Singh ji)
The kind of understanding that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is talking about isn't "What, where, when, who and why". Because this can be known quite easily through simply reading the text, and understanding in this way is only helpful if it gets you to direct perception of God, which is not an understanding but an actual perceiving of God. It is a ecstatic union with him. It is having a darsan, a revelation, an illumination. What, where when who or why do not matter here. It is a miraculous event. (Harry ji )

(pause)

Tricks of the intellect of defining, describing, naming, breaking down, understanding, logic and reasoning do not go very far. That is because intellect while playing an important role in getting one to union, is also getting in the the way of union. Intellect happens in the realm of duality. The way to beat intellect is not using further intellect but by relaxing the intellectual muscles of the mind, by relaxing the mind's conditioned reaction to everything. Chanting is a way of doing this.

If those who chant without understanding are stuck on the first level, then those who understand but do not chant are stuck on the second, there is yet a third level in which both come to dwell together.
(pause)

On chanting - http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/questi...tml#post156855

Guru Sahib say that it is difficult to chant the True Name. This is not so much the actual act of saying but keeping your attention on the moment you say the Naam. keeping your attention on the sounds. gavieh sunieh man rakhieh bhau, Sing and listen and be filled with love - Japji, 5. Keeping your attention in the present, rather than letting it wander in the past or future. (Although to be in the present, you have to let your attention wander.) Chanting is a technique for doing this. Other traditions have different techniques as I have mentioned.

Forgetting the Naam, one is attached to duality. To truly chant the Naam, is to say the Naam while being present and completely detached.

(pause)

In a way, this is training. It is like the training of an athlete, who trains his body. Here we train our mind and learn to become still and learn to accept everything as good/God. (The anecdotes you present Tejwant Singh ji are of lazy athletes)

Only a still mind can see what it is taking for granted. Only when we see what we are taking for granted do we accept everything as good/God.

(pause)

This is true faith.

ਬਸੰਤੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ਘਰੁ ੨ ਹਿੰਡੋਲ
बसंतु महला ५ घरु २ हिंडोल
Basanṯ mėhlā 5 gẖar 2 hindol
Basant, Fifth Mehl, Second House, Hindol:

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
ੴ सतिगुर प्रसादि ॥
Ik▫oaʼnkār saṯgur parsāḏ.
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

ਹੋਇ ਇਕਤ੍ਰ ਮਿਲਹੁ ਮੇਰੇ ਭਾਈ ਦੁਬਿਧਾ ਦੂਰਿ ਕਰਹੁ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਇ ॥
होइ इकत्र मिलहु मेरे भाई दुबिधा दूरि करहु लिव लाइ ॥
Ho▫e ikaṯar milhu mere bẖā▫ī ḏubiḏẖā ḏūr karahu liv lā▫e.
Come and join together, O my Siblings of Destiny; dispel your sense of duality and let yourselves be lovingly absorbed in the Lord.

ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੈ ਕੇ ਹੋਵਹੁ ਜੋੜੀ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਬੈਸਹੁ ਸਫਾ ਵਿਛਾਇ ॥੧॥
हरि नामै के होवहु जोड़ी गुरमुखि बैसहु सफा विछाइ ॥१॥
Har nāmai ke hovhu joṛī gurmukẖ baishu safā vicẖẖā▫e. ||1||
Let yourselves be joined to the Name of the Lord; become Gurmukh, spread out your mat, and sit down. ||1||
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/37649-does-sikhism-embrace-mysticism.html

ਇਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਪਾਸਾ ਢਾਲਹੁ ਬੀਰ ॥
इन्ह बिधि पासा ढालहु बीर ॥
Inĥ biḏẖ pāsā dẖālahu bīr.
In this way, throw the dice, O brothers.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਹੁ ਦਿਨੁ ਰਾਤੀ ਅੰਤ ਕਾਲਿ ਨਹ ਲਾਗੈ ਪੀਰ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
गुरमुखि नामु जपहु दिनु राती अंत कालि नह लागै पीर ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Gurmukẖ nām japahu ḏin rāṯī anṯ kāl nah lāgai pīr. ||1|| rahā▫o.
As Gurmukh, chant the Naam, the Name of the Lord, day and night. At the very last moment, you shall not have to suffer in pain. ||1||Pause||

ਕਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਚਉਪੜਿ ਸਾਜਹੁ ਸਤੁ ਕਰਹੁ ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਸਾਰੀ ॥
करम धरम तुम्ह चउपड़ि साजहु सतु करहु तुम्ह सारी ॥
Karam ḏẖaram ṯumĥ cẖa▫upaṛ sājahu saṯ karahu ṯumĥ sārī.
Let righteous actions be your game board, and let the truth be your dice.

ਕਾਮੁ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਲੋਭੁ ਮੋਹੁ ਜੀਤਹੁ ਐਸੀ ਖੇਲ ਹਰਿ ਪਿਆਰੀ ॥੨॥
कामु क्रोधु लोभु मोहु जीतहु ऐसी खेल हरि पिआरी ॥२॥
Kām kroḏẖ lobẖ moh jīṯahu aisī kẖel har pi▫ārī. ||2||
Conquer sexual desire, anger, greed and worldly attachment; only such a game as this is dear to the Lord. ||2||

ਉਠਿ ਇਸਨਾਨੁ ਕਰਹੁ ਪਰਭਾਤੇ ਸੋਏ ਹਰਿ ਆਰਾਧੇ ॥
उठि इसनानु करहु परभाते सोए हरि आराधे ॥
Uṯẖ isnān karahu parbẖāṯe so▫e har ārāḏẖe.
Rise in the early hours of the morning, and take your cleansing bath. Before you go to bed at night, remember to worship the Lord.

ਬਿਖੜੇ ਦਾਉ ਲੰਘਾਵੈ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸੁਖ ਸਹਜ ਸੇਤੀ ਘਰਿ ਜਾਤੇ ॥੩॥
बिखड़े दाउ लंघावै मेरा सतिगुरु सुख सहज सेती घरि जाते ॥३॥
Bikẖ▫ṛe ḏā▫o langẖāvai merā saṯgur sukẖ sahj seṯī gẖar jāṯe. ||3||
My True Guru will assist you, even on your most difficult moves; you shall reach your true home in celestial peace and poise. ||3||

ਹਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਖੇਲੈ ਆਪੇ ਦੇਖੈ ਹਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਰਚਨੁ ਰਚਾਇਆ ॥
हरि आपे खेलै आपे देखै हरि आपे रचनु रचाइआ ॥
Har āpe kẖelai āpe ḏekẖai har āpe racẖan racẖā▫i▫ā.
The Lord Himself plays, and He Himself watches; the Lord Himself created the creation.

ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜੋ ਨਰੁ ਖੇਲੈ ਸੋ ਜਿਣਿ ਬਾਜੀ ਘਰਿ ਆਇਆ ॥੪॥੧॥੧੯॥
जन नानक गुरमुखि जो नरु खेलै सो जिणि बाजी घरि आइआ ॥४॥१॥१९॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=37649
Jan Nānak gurmukẖ jo nar kẖelai so jiṇ bājī gẖar ā▫i▫ā. ||4||1||19||
O servant Guru Nanak, that person who plays this game as Gurmukh, wins the game of life, and returns to his true home. ||4||1||19||
pg 1185


Last edited by BhagatSingh; 27-Nov-2011 at 04:01 AM.
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