One Drink Too Many? A Discussion of Alcohol and Sikhi

This thread consists of comments moved from their original thread at http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-s...l-guru-ka.html Should We Serve Alcohol as Guru Ka Langar
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Let anyone who has no alcohol in their blood stand up and be counted or hold their peace (no ),

Watch out for bubbly Orange Juice if you are concerned about alcohol,
Some breads have alcohol too, Oh my God!

In hindsight, I am very concerned about blood donations that I have done 24 times in case it was used for a teetotaler and the extra pious

It also kind of answers the question for me where the mosquitoes get the buzz from specially after biting me

Guru ji's and Gurbani gives us the capability to think big. We can ignore all that and think small, as there is a choice for each one of us! To each their own.

Sinner ji great posts and thanks for supporting SPN.

Sat Sri Akal.

 
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Ambarsaria ji, forgive me for this question if I have misunderstood you as sometimes I struggle to tell when you are being humorous and when serious! The body makes trace amounts of alcohol so are you using that as justification for consuming alcoholic beverages? The body also makes steroids. Does that make it acceptable to ingest steroids for bodybuilding?!
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/36187-one-drink-too-many-discussion-alcohol.html

An additional point is that when OJ makes alcohol it is considered to have gone off and is very unpleasant to drink. The type of yeast used in bread is different to the yeast used in alcohol production. Fermentation in bread making is only for a very short time so you can never get drunk from it. The same cannot be said for 1 glass of an alcoholic drink!

findingmyway ji I hardly condone drinking but neither do I put myself on a higher ground because of it.

I have seen many a people lose their lives and families to alcoholism, some friends lost to alcoholism, made a fool of myself couple of times during my younger days. I just do not believe in so called purity of oneself just because one does not drink, does not eat meat, does not eat eggs, etc. I have also seen many a people die from eating high fat vegetarian diets, ghee, homo milk, sweets, etc. There comes a time where one stops preaching and starts accepting people for what they are. Sure we care and want everyone to be their best but the danger is too many dictums and none are taken seriously.

I challenge anyone to show themselves, their spouse and children as a family unit to claim they are not tankhayieh according to SRM. I will regard them higher than my parents whether such are young or old.

I continue to believe that biggest time consumers are the small things that matter little. Why is it wrong for Sinner ji to refer to an apertif or Harry Haller ji to take a mickey or two. Whether they do or not they from their writings are as close to God spiritually as any of the other spner's that I can think of. I also don't believe that I am conversing with proverbial people on the bottle at spn either.

It goes without saying that moderation of habits pays great dividends in what you put into your body's factory to keep you healthy and functional. Many a substances beyond alcohol and tobacco are harmful when excessively consumed and conversely many a substances consumed in minute quantities or moderation are helpful. I tended to a close relative in final stages of Cancer that he succumbed at a younger age. Opiates made his exit from his body comfortable. Many a people have been saved in the battlefield in olden days through the septic prevention use of alcohol or to numb pain. Many a lungs have been saved through cough suppressants.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36187

So in closing people not taking medicine if it has some alcohol in it, not using perfume because it has alcohol in it, etc. Such people will lead to bigger and bigger circles of emptiness based on exclusivities and sense of superior living and piety. The bodies that we are in are a miracle with much ability to tell each one individually what is suitable and what works. The object is to keep listening to your bodies. You may not eat meat, may not drink who knows what your other habits are and if you ignore listening to your body you will pay.

Let me cite some real examples,

• With Ramdev craze the following happened,
  • A lady was having health issues and start drinking gourd (Karela) juice. She got E-coli infection that no one could figure out and virtually died. Reason the Indian Karelas had E-coli.
    • So what happened, thinking was blinded and habit of cleaniless was lacking.
  • People have been drinking gourd juice (Ghia Kaduh) is another craze
    • One wonders how many of those are in trouble
• A gentleman close to us almost died. He went to India and had some minor diabetic issues. In India he was given some concoction made out of pure powdered pearls. He was fleeced and put near death due to lack of what his body was telling him. He does not drink and does not eat sweets.
• Such stories are endless and they will most of the time will be based on not listening to your body, excessive use of some substances, vegetables, meats which are perfectly legal without any alcohol involved.

We are guilty of hijacking this thread a bit, but occasional drink in moderation does not a devil make!

In terms of the subject of the thread I do not support the serving of Alcohol in any way related to Gurdwaras.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36187

Some of the well respected including Professor ragi, leaders at DSGMC are known to like occasional drinks.

Let us focus on our Gurus Gurbani and live with and open heart and open mind. Sikhism will continue to evolve and so will the Sikhs. I wish the best for both.

Sat Sri Akal.

I do not think any of us here, including my dear brothers sinnerji and ambersariaji, are advocating and encouraging drinking, and certainly not in the house of god, however, if we are to assume that every action takes us either closer or further away from god, and you manage to, on a weekly basis, get closer and closer, than I think those that, over a course of time, get closer will eventually merge into the light and live life, in all its facets, on a higher plane.

Until then, all we can do is , in our own individual way, come to peace with ourselves and our vices, and balance the bliss of god, with the reality of living. Not drinking is not an automatic entry to Waheguru, in my youth, when I too drank too much, I was reasonably happy and productive, I worked hard, I played hard, but on occasion, I would give up drinking and end up doing nothing at all, I was smug that I had conquered drink, but instead of living, I became an empty vessel, nor did I become more spiritual, just more smug and judgemental.

However, I personally think that if you are amritdhari, baptised, then you should not. I think that before you get amrit, you should consider very carefully whether you can uphold and follow the way, but for the rest of us, the odd drink is no more relevant than feelings of lust, pride, ego etc

I feel I am constantly misunderstood on this issue. Harry ji, your earlier post nailed it on the head! Abstaining is nothing to do with a holier than thou attitude nor will you ever hear me say you must give up. On the other hand if we normalise alcohol by saying oh well there is no harm in 1 drink then that takes the incentive to stop away. Abstaining from alcohol is for an individual's benefit-to allow them always to be closer to Waheguru. Change should come from inside but it can only do so when people understand the reasons for an action. If you choose to drink, that is your personal choice but it should be made with the eyes wide open and with consciousness of why Guruji felt it was not advisable. We all do things that we know Guruji advised against as none of us are perfect (least of all me) but we do these regardless of this knowledge. Let alcohol be included in that rather than trying to always insist there's no harm in 1 drink! Informed decision making

True but pride, lust etc are accepted as traits that need to be tackled during our lifetime and as far as I see things, so should alcohol be. Not all will overcome lust or pride or ego and not all will overcome alcohol but that does not mean we say oh well all these things are ok for everyone, no need to try!

I feel this issue is now going round in circles. I'm sorry if I sound preachy, I just felt I should clarify. I am not looking down on anyone as almost all of my friends drink but anything in life should be an informed choice.

Bhenji,

I have made my peace with drink, it does not own me, it does not sing to me (anymore), I could quite happily go without it, my biggest problem is lust, that seems to me to be the final thing I need to conquer before considering the next step. When I use the word 'lust' I do not mean I am a gibbering monster undressing women in my head, I mean I enjoy pleasure, be it food or intimacy with my wife, and that is it, the two facets of lust I have a problem with.

We are all on our individual path, we all do the best we can, I would hate to not drink because of a 'rule' even though I really wanted to, what has that achieved?. In the same way, when I now feel lustful, I play one of IshnaBhenji's Shabads she kindly sent me, or I ring my mother!
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36187

To just blot out those thoughts will not get me anywhere, I need to understand who I am, and also what I need, to what end?

To the end that ultimately I can be at peace, not in denial, and then I believe I am in the best place at that point to take Amrit, and then follow that path to the letter.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36187

Sat Sri Akal

I have a confession. The last time I had a drink, I got drunk, I came on here and had a tantrum (which had to be moderated) in a thread too close to my raw nerve.

Since then, and since my young colleague died unexpectedly of a liver infection, I haven't had one drop of alcohol. I have half a bottle in the cupboard, and sometimes I get stressed and just want to drink it. It's horrible and I don't think anyone should be encouraged to drink in the first place as it just leads on to more drinking. One glass often leads to more glasses. And one glass to take the edge off today turns into one glass to take the edge off tomorrow and before long one glass just doesn't cut it any more.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36187

I had my first drink well after the legal drinking age in Australia (18). I have always been a fairly responsible drinker, I've never drunk so much I've spewed but I've lost chunks of my memory (of time when I've been drunk).

The hardest part for me is that when I drink, I think of God, and feel closer, and talk about Waheguru and Guru Sahibs to my disinterested husband, and feel terribly guilty for it.

Thanks Ambarsaria Ji for your defense of my posts ,you are a brave Soul.
Your confession is heard Isna Ji & Thanks for the objections too thats what discourse is.

Self control is hard for example we live a gresti life, as opposed to the life of chastity , so we must limit ourselves to one women, so why can't we be trusted to limit ourself in other things.
Many people are 'drunk' with money ,or withthemselves in general .
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36187

What matters is where your attention is and your intention. The attention must be on not doing harm to oneself or others and the intention should be not to lose ones mind.
I am against it of course in the Langar but I feel the person who started the thread is more against alcohol and has added that context to provoke a reaction perhaps?
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36187
When I say call to action that is not to defend alcohol ,but engage more people in dialectic reasoning, to find the truth on these matters ,I see all these views ,yet only a few posters will offer their opinion?
We know alcohol is no cure for lifes problems, nor is it 'healthy' or immoral in itself ,perhaps it is amoral.

I feel the Gurmat precept is more against getting drunk than absolute abstinence !but that is only my personal interpretation ,I realise another interpretation would be total abstinence.
If you see me in Hell, you know I got it wrong

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Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36187

Please note that our guaranteed part exchange system will not apply if the engine shows signs of constant alcohol use, but if minor occasional use, will be at the discretion of the Manager.