Why Sadh Sangat? Why Not Go it Alone?

This thread is intended for a discussion of shabad vichaar.

Below is a couplet from Raag Aaasa, first Mehl, on Ang 437 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. The complete shabad is at this link

http://www.searchgurbani.com/guru_gr...437/line/20032



ਸਾਧ ਸਭਾ ਸੰਤਾ ਕੀ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਨਦਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
saadhh sabhaa santhaa kee sangath nadhar prabhoo sukh paaeiaa ||
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/33115-why-sadh-sangat-why-not-go.html

In the Company of the Holy, and the Saints' Society, by God's Grace, peace is obtained.

ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਭਗਤਿ ਰਤੇ ਬੈਰਾਗੀ ਚੂਕੇ ਮੋਹ ਪਿਆਸਾ ॥
har kee bhagath rathae bairaagee chookae moh piaasaa ||

हरि की भगति रते बैरागी चूके मोह पिआसा ॥
The renunciates remain absorbed in devotional worship to the Lord; they are rid of emotional attachment and desire.


I wanted to begin with only this couplet, in the hope that others who discuss this topic would seek out the many other shabads where the idea of sangat is mentioned in Guru Granth. If you did that, the discussion could be very rich in insights.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=33115

Here is my question. As we continue on our journey to discover our "true identity" do we need sangat? Can this be a journey of the lonesome soul, a traveler without companions?

Sub-questions.

saadhh sabhaa santhaa kee sangath Is this wrongly understood in the plural?
saadhh sabhaa santhaa kee sangath Does this refer only to the company of Waheguru?
bairaagee
Does this imply that in being detached we must be unattached from the company of others on a similar journey?


Please ground your reply in gurbani.

 
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Ek OnKaar Sat Naam

We have to be sure we are all referring to the same meaning of sangat in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

I can think of at least two, but there may be more.

There is the commonly appreciated meaning of sangat, this being akin to the body of people attending a gurdwara ( usually with a purpose of seeking enlightenment - thus allowing some to term that sangat as "holy" and hence a saadhsangat)

There is also a body of souls focussed on the Lord but who are not physically met in the physical world, but can be visualised mentally when the mind is raised spiritually. They are referred to in the three intermediate khands, ( giaan khand, saram khand and karam khand) between dharam khand and sachkhand.

If one uses the former, then one is limited to searching for actual people who are at least as wise as or as holy as oneself, in order to make progress.
However the person sitting next to oneself on the bus, may be more holy than anyone in a gurdwara, and one may not know it. On the other hand one may sit all day long with a group of people in a diwan hall, hoping they are focused on the Lord and can impart some of their knowledge. However this may not be the case. One could make an assessment after attending a gurdwara regularly to see if ongoings in the gurdwara are shifting one towards God in any way, or if one is becoming attached to the gurdwara itself and its ongoings.

If one uses the latter definition, and uses this in conjuction with the wealth of shabds in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji all progress is subject to one's own willingness to learn directly from the prime source of spiritual advice of all Sikhs, ie from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

I personally prefer the latter, and seek that sangat. This choice is made after making prolonged attempts to attend daily, morning and evening at Gurdwaras. I found I did not grasp or contemplate the Gurus bani anywhere near as effectively as when I read for myself, and I also found it difficult to sit for extended periods on the floor.

On P180, Guru Arjan Dev ji, advises one does not need to look outside, or elsewhere and that the "company of the holy" can be found by deep meditation, and for me this is sufficient vindication that the saadhsangat may be found through a sole journey.

Here is the shabd:
Sat Sri Akal

Conducting a search I found 427 references to sangat. Searching for sadh sangat, there are 163 references. That for me is enough to show me the importance of having good sangat. Sangat is the people you associate with. Sadh sangat refers to those who inspire you and encourage you to progress.

From our lives, each of us can identify with this as commonsense. Your company infleuences you so if you keep good company, you will more likely be a good person. If your friends/family have bad habits, you are more likely to follow. Therefore, Guru Ji is encouraging us remain amongst people that will keep us grounded and on the right path.


For me sangat is anyone who fulfils this criteria. Many of my friends do much voluntry work. Whether they are Sikh or not I count them as my sangat as they are good people who are living for others. I also have many Sikh friends, which is important as together we can do Gurbani vichaar etc to understand Guru Ji's message. Both groups of people help me to walk on the Gurmukh's path :happykaur:

Within Sikhi, the concept of sangat is enshrined in the practice of holding regular divans in Gurdwara and in the concept of langar as food is a great way to bring people together. The theory is, going to the Gurdwara you are more likely to take interest in Gurbani. Sitting at home its very easy to get distracted and disconnected. That is human nature!


Sunmukh Ji,
Thank you for sharing the beautiful shabad. My interpretation of the highlighted lines is that do not listen to those other than your specially chosen Gurmukh sangat (not to ignore them in life but do not be influenced by others) and do not go to places where your sangat are not (eg pubs and clubs). Gurbani is written in couplets so the line above is related to the line about singing God's praises. This will help you find sangat rather than replace the need for sangat. Sangat is mentioned so many times with reference to people that I do not think it is possible to hide away without it. That would then be a sadhu lifestyle which has been criticised by Guru Ji.

SPN is one my greatest forms of sangat!!!
Jasleen

The closest I've come to real-life sangat has been at the Unitarian Universalist church in my town. Does that count?
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=33115

I've been unable to make Sikh friends in real-life (that is, beyond the Internet). The couple who have made an effort to include me in gurdwara activities have never spoken about Sikhi past answering my questions on pronunciation.

I'm with Sunmukh -- I find it easier to connect to Waheguru when I'm alone and immersed in simran or studying Gurbani. Guidance from this online sangat is the closest I come to Sikh sadh sangat.

As I've expressed in another post, sometimes I feel depressed because of all the references to "the Company of the Holy" (Sukhmani Sahib, for instance) when I can't really find any in real-life. Makes me think "Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is all the holy company I need", but then, I wouldn't be here, or poking my nose in the UU church either.

I'm interested to hear other people's opinions as to what exactly constitutes "sadh sangat".
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=33115

Ishna

To intervene: There are two levels to the problem about the importance of sangat. I would like to be clear about that. One level is the very personal problem of finding sangat. That is not the intention of this thread. We can start a thread for that, and it would probably be useful.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=33115
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=33115

If we focus on our personal disappointments, or agreeing or disagreeing with this member or the other, then the message of the shabad will be lost. The intended theme of this thread - in Sikh Sikhi Sikhism - is aimed at finding out what Guru ji actually says about the importance of sangat. What is the gurmat understanding? Let's head in the direction of a vichaar of the shabad. Please post shabads with your reply and given an interpretation of it.

To discuss problems finding sangat we can go to this newly created thread
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-s...tml#post136492

Ek OnKaar Sat Naam

There are many references to saadhsangat, the sat sangat and sangat in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, just as Jasleen Kaur ji points out.

If I understand SPNadmin ji correctly, he (she?) is asking for discussion to be focussed upon whether the company of other like minded people is essential when deliberating upon bani, and thinking about the creator Lord.

I am sure it will help anybody to improve understanding, if one is doing gurbani vichaar with other people with such a purpose.

On p414 Guru Nanak Dev ji confirms this:



However I am not so convinced Guru ji is suggesting it is essential to be in a sangat. If we bear in mind the creator Lord is all pervading, and is hence in each and every soul, and mukhti is attained by His grace, then it cannot be essential to physically sit with a particular congregation.

It is most unlikely people of one faith would entertain discussion of ways to receive the Lords grace with people of other faith as fruitful, yet the Lord will still liberate those who please Him, and nobody has any say in the matter. IMHO this completely negates the need to do Gurbani vichaar (contemplate and discuss Gurbani) with people of the same faith, simply because they are on the same wavelength.

On p378, Guru Arjan Dev ji refers to the aatma/ soul in the saadhsangat. However, I believe Guru Ji makes it clear that that sangat, the "saadhsangat" is a spiritual sangat, and not sangat in the common usage of the word (ie not an earthly congregation of people)



Sikhi is very straightforward. It is about going about one's daily business but also remembering God and doing good deeds. It is often very overcomplicated, by unnecessary overlayering, or padding, and duties to perform now well established practices. Possibly this may be due to a deep rooted sense of being dutiful and respectful to Guru ji. This is indeed necessary, as it is to all fellow humans, but I am sure Guru ji would want one to move closer to Guru ji, to listen to Guru ji's words and follow advice rather than to only stay at a distance, and adorn or worship Guru ji. IMHO following Guru ji's advice as given in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the greatest respect that can be given to Guru Sahibans aspirations and intent.

The sangat in the sense of a congregation of humans is a transient congregation, just as a single person is impermanent. It will be here for one instant and then gone for aeons. The only permanent sangat is the saadhsangat, or satsangat. It is a congregation of spiritually pure souls. It is the true congregation that any sikh should seek to join, to fall at the feet of the Satguru, in order that one may receive the grace of the Lord. To climb the ladder to this saadhsangat one needs to engage in deep meditation, constant remembrance and constant kirtan (in the mind). In such a way intuitive awareness of the Lord will arise and the remembrance and kirtan will become automatic, or heart-felt. We then hope we will receive the Lord's grace, but will be happy with any decision whatsoever of His. He leads, we follow. He orders, we heed. Nobody questions the Lord. Hukam razai chalna.

In a way, I am seeing in "Sikh" society a very high level of respect being afforded to Sikhi and its practices, and an increasing level of Guru Sahiban worship or even idolisation , but am not seeing evidence of the same or higher levels of respect being afforded to the creator Lord, yet only He and His court is true and permanant. Gurbani very clearly and repeatedly explains this. There is a most huge meaning to not being "Hindu or Mussalman", if one is seeking to lose complete emotional attachment to worldly affairs. Emotional attachment to Sikhi is no diffferent. Truthful practise is to be encouraged but emotional attachment to practises is not. The Guru of Guru Nanak Dev ji is the Lord. His sangat is not worldly. He sought and sought and sought but no humans could provide satisfactory answers. All his answers were from the Lord. This made him different from hindus and mussalmans, who turned only to pandits, qazis and ketthabas (books), and some did not even follow the ketthabas. It would be an ironic tragedy if Sikhs followed gyanis.granthis/wise persons(ie pandits) but failed to heed advice in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Guru Nanak Dev ji bowed to the Lord and recognised the Lord as all-doer, karta purakh. As explained in Siddh Gosht, his only Guru/Lord was spiritual - the embodiment of Truth. There was no sangat at the time of his enlightenment. This should make it obvious that the Lord will enlighten whoever He chooses to enlighten, and physical sangat is therefore not an essential requirement.

I hope I am not coming across in an arrogant and egotistical way, as I seriously do not intend to make out I am any sort of expert, but what I see is incredible levels of focus on the world and much less on the Lord. I hope I have not hurt anybody's feelings, by writing a bit forcefully. For me though, it is very important to try to help people to recognise the simple pragmatic advice of Guru ji. It is very hard for some to see just how simple it is.

Sat Sri Akal

All the Guru's frequently held audience with wise people from other faiths and they included bani by the bhagats. This shows me that it is not only Sikhs that are the sangat but anyone who holds God dear and is endeavouring to work for the good of all, anyone doing sarbat da bhalla. You do not have to agree with all in others faith but that does not mean you cannot both be spiritual in your own paths. The Guru's never said Sikhi was the only path but it is the most logical and dogma free path.

The many many references to sangat refer to people. I will post some examples soon as I have a lot on my plate at the moment. This is because the Guru's know what human nature is like. Without others around you to keep you focussed and thinking, you are more likely to wander or go astray. Also Guru Ji advocated a grisht jeevan and was against Sadhus hiding away from the world. Only by conquering temptation can we become Gurmukhs-not by running away from it. Even in Japji, Guru Ji emphasises this point with Chupai chup na howai, je lahi riha liv thar (forgive my transliteration, I'm not very good without Gurmukhi). This is not in support of introspection alone as it does not achieve anything. Introspection on many levels is also selfish as you are not helping the world around you.



But of you only go about your daily business you will not always stand up for others and do true sarbat da bhalla as why should you care as long as your spirituality is on track?


Absolutely! So that is why sangat is important to help you understand Guru Ji's advice and how to implement it in your life.

Life is also transient so should we disregard life and end it now? Everything takes effort as does finding sangat so we should always endeavour to find new sangat wherever we go.

This is a small part of the Sikh way of life. We must endeavour to live the Gurmukh life and always do everything we can to help the downtrodden. Meditating and praying alone achieve nothing as many shabads say.

But unless you take the steps onto the path of enlightenment, how can you possibly expect to become enlightened? Hukam is not a passive thing but we have to be proactive. Finding sangat is one of the proactive measures we can take. Sangat is not just a Gurdwara congregation. Just like the internet has made reading the Guru Granth Sahib Ji possible, it has made connecting to sangat around the world possible.

If we a looking for a gurmat working definition of sangat, and clarification regarding the importance of taking an active role in service to our fellow humans, we can turn to Bhai Gurdas ji. The picture that emerges not one of detaching from our companions in sangat on the soul's journey,

This is only one of several is Vaar 3, pauree 8. There are others.

੯ : ਗੁਰਸਿੱਖਾਂ ਲਈ ਸਾਧਨ, ਦਸ਼ਾ ਤੇ ਵਰਤਨ

ਪੂਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸਤਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਭਾਲੀਐ।

pooraa satigur sati guramoukhi bhaaleeai.

पूरा सतिगुर सति गुरमुखि भालीऐ ।

The perfect Guru is truth incarnate who is realised by becoming gurmukh.

ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੩ ਪਉੜੀ ੮ ਪੰ. ੧


ਪੂਰੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਮਤਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਮ੍ਹਾਲੀਐ।

pooree satigur mati sabadi samhaaleeai.

पूरी सतिगुर मति सबदि सम्हालीऐ ।

The desire of the true Guru is that the Word should be sustained;

ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੩ ਪਉੜੀ ੮ ਪੰ. ੨

ਦਰਗਹ ਧੋਈਐ ਪਤਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਜਾਲੀਐ।

daragah dhoeeai pati haoumai jaaleeai.

दरगह धोईऐ पति हउमै जालीऐ ।

Burning the ego one will get honour in the court of Lord.

ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੩ ਪਉੜੀ ੮ ਪੰ. ੩


ਘਰ ਹੀ ਜੋਗ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਬੈਸਣਿ ਧਰਮਸਾਲੀਐ।

ghar hee jog jougati baisani dharamasaaleeai.

घर ही जोग जुगति बैसणि धरमसालीऐ ।
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=33115

One should learn the technique of merging in the Lord by considering one’s home as the place for cultivating dharma.

ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੩ ਪਉੜੀ ੮ ਪੰ. ੪


ਪਾਵਨ ਮੋਖ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਗੁਰ ਸਿਖਿ ਪਾਲੀਐ।

paavan mokh moukati gur sikhi paaleeai.

पावण मोख मुकति गुर सिखि पालीऐ ।

Liberation for them is certain who abide by the teaching of the Guru.

ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੩ ਪਉੜੀ ੮ ਪੰ. ੫


ਅੰਤਰਿ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਭਗਤਿ ਨਦਰਿ ਨਿਹਾਲੀਐ।

antari praym bhagati nadari nihaaleeai.

अंतरि प्रेम भगति नदरि निहालीऐ ।

They having loving devotion in their heart remain jubliant.

ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੩ ਪਉੜੀ ੮ ਪੰ. ੬

ਪਤਿਸਾਹੀ ਇਕ ਛਤ ਖਰੀ ਸੁਖਾਲੀਐ।

patisaahee ik chhati kharee soukhaaleeai.

पतिसाही इक छति खरी सुखालीऐ ।
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=33115

Such people are emperors full of delight.

ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੩ ਪਉੜੀ ੮ ਪੰ. ੭


ਪਾਣੀ ਪੀਹਣ ਘਤਿ ਸੇਵਾ ਘਾਲੀਐ।

paanee peehanu ghati sayvaa ghaaleeai.

पाणी पीहणु घति सेवा घालीऐ ।

Becoming egoless they serve the sangat, congregation, by bringing water, grinding corn etc. for it.

ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੩ ਪਉੜੀ ੮ ਪੰ. ੮


ਮਸਕੀਨੀ ਵਿਚ ਵਤਿ ਚਾਲ ਨਿਰਾਲੀਐ ॥੮॥

masakeenee vichi vati chaalay chaaleeai ॥8॥

मसकीनी विचि वति चाले चालीऐ ॥८॥

In humility and joy they lead altogether distinct life.

The "distinct life" of a Sikh of the Guru does not come through separation from others who may be taking their journey with us. Nor does sangat here refer to anything other than those whom we serve and who worship with us.

---------------

To discuss problems finding sangat we can go to this newly created thread
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-s...tml#post136492 (Where is my sangat?)

SSA

One who is in the companion of truth is in the company of all, in that one find the peace called god.