Support for the Concept of Reincarnation in Sikhism?

Admin note: This thread was created from posts located in another thread Dominance of Rituals in the Sikh Religion. The conversation began to look at reincarnation more than ritual. Thus this thread was created to accommodate the new focus of discussion. Thank you : Narayanjot Kaur.

On my very First visit to Punjab/India after a lapse of nearly 50 years..in November-December 2005..I went to Visit Goindwaal sahib as well as nearby Khadoor sahib, Sultan Pur Lodhi Gurdwaras of the First Three Guru sahibaans in great detail. I had heard of this baoli and its 84 Japji sahib paaths to escape the 84 lakh Joons reincarnations theory.
I wanted to try it out and came well prepared. I too completed the entire 84 paaths/and 84 baths non stop...and it was a truly mind blowing wonderful experience. The fact that i know Japji by memory helped speed up things a bit faster..but the freezing cold winter temps and the wetness..and all is a one time experience well worth it.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/26474-support-for-the-concept-reincarnation-sikhism.html

I dont subscribe to the notion that merely doing 84 Japji sahibs on 84 steps and taking 84 baths at the Baoli will save ones soul from the reincarnation. Firstly I DONT beleive there are only 84 lakh joons.. more...or less...my understanding is this is just a figure Guru Ji picked up to ILLUSTRATE GURMATT. So Since there are no Joons...there is NO REINCARNATION. Period.
GURMATT is that HUMAN BIRTH is a ONE OFF experience...the Creator affords us this one opportunity to do His HUKM and live the Life that will make it possible for US to REUNITE/MERGE with HIM. Period. Human life is a valuable gift..and the ONE Chance to Break the Wall of haumaii..separating us from HIM...and rejoin HIM..forever and forever.
THIS WALL of Haumaii is to be broken by LIVING IN HIS HUKM..following the Directions given to us in the 1429 aangs of Guru Granth Sahib jis GURBANI..and THIS is the ONLY WAY FORWARD. GURBANI has got to be LIVED...ENJOYED...LOVED...Khavoh..Kharcho..Bhuncho ..to be EFFECTIVE in changing our daily lives towards HIM.
That said...the Baoli in Goindwaal..and another even bigger one in a Village called dalla made by Guru hargobind Ji ( which I also visited and had a bath - although i avoided the "holy season" there which is Massiah - dark phase of the moon - childless women bathe there to get sons ...and besides bathing..also make "***** of atta"..and there is also a Locked Room there that contains the "soul" of MALARIA FEVER..supposedly caught and locked up to prevent the FEVER from afflicting people ) are HISTORICAL PLACES of our Gurus..and shoudl be visited with HISTORY in mind..NOT the various RITUALS.

BY the way IF..84 baths and 84 japji sahibs are a little too difficult to escape the 84 lakh joons/reincarnations..there is an even EASIER WAY to do that. IN the Goindwaal/Khadoor sahib area...Itself there is another Historical Gurdawra called SANNH SAHIB, in the Basement wall of which there is a MEDIUM SIZED ROUND HOLE (sannh means hole)..and its said that.."ANYONE GOING THROUGH THAT HOLE..escapes the 84 lakh joons....and there is a long line of people queing up to do just that...go through..and escape JOONS !! Could anything be EASIER..NO WAY..its simplest way !!
BTW..I went through the hole too...just in case !! (insurance)..but be careful...the hole is just MEDIUM...really fat will get stuck (limbo !!)..lucky me..my belly wasnt that big..way back in 2005..i scraped through by the skin of my teeth...
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26474

Now to the story behind Sannh sahib.
The youngest son of Guru Angad Dev named Dasu, kicked Guru Amar Dass off his throne and asked him to leave Goindwal. Guru Amar Dass left Goindwal for Basarke and reaching there shut himself inside a house for quiet meditation. On the door he wrote," Whosoever opens the lock of this door, I will not own him as my follower." Baba Budha broke open the house from the back side, without touching the lock on the front door, fulfilled the command of the Guru in letter, if not in spirit. Thus he was able to see the Guru, who overwhelmed with his devotion, accompanied the Sikhs to Goindwal. The Gurdwara Sannh Sahib stands on that place.

 
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Gyani ji

can you please elaborate on that.

Guru ji in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji have stated about various joons in very elaborate way.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26474

what were they talking about?

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Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26474

Gyani ji

can you please elaborate on that.

Guru ji in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji have stated about various joons in very elaborate way.

what were they talking about?

Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

Jarnail Singh Ji
i agree with your point on "doing 84 Japji sahibs on 84 steps and taking 84 baths at the Baoli will save ones soul from 84 joons".
But i cannot understand why dont you beleive in "84 lakh joons/reincarnations".

My point is Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji tell us many times about the 84joons/reincarnations & there are many Sakhies which proove the 84 lakh joons/reincarnations.

Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26474
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26474

Jarnail Singh Ji
i agree with your point on "doing 84 Japji sahibs on 84 steps and taking 84 baths at the Baoli will save ones soul from 84 joons".
But i cannot understand why dont you beleive in "84 lakh joons/reincarnations".

My point is Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji tell us many times about the 84joons/reincarnations & there are many Sakhies which proove the 84 lakh joons/reincarnations.

Guru Piayario Jios,
Gurfateh.

There are extremely lengthy essays I can write on why i beleive that the Gurbani references to Hindu Mythology, the Bhagats Prehlaad, Joons, and reincarnations et al..are only references. Plenty of good arguments available in Punjabi on Sikh Marg ???? ???? and other places.
The gist of my argument is that at a large number of places..Gurbani is very clear that this HUMAN BIRTH is ONLY ONCE...it is durlaabh (invaluable), it is the One and ONLY chance we get to Merge with the Creator...Bhgats say this, the Gurus say this...again and again. Now this may not be solid proof that "joons" exist/dont exist...BUT GURU NANAK JI SAHIB came in Human Form, for the HUMAN FORM..the Gurbani was spoken in human Langauge to humans..and its written down in Human Langauge For HUMANS..and HUMAN FORM..JANAM only Happens ONCE..Gobind milan kee eh teri Bareah..this is the TURN to meet HIM..means PAY ATTENTION..LIFE IS SHORT...the END..the DESTINATION is in SIGHT..prepare to END the JOURNEY. in my book a person who goes on specualting about where he came "from"..what he was earlier..a crow..a cow..a worm..endlessly...while the TRAIN OF LIFE continues to run towards the STATION where he will ahve to GET OFF..and He doesnt bother to get his "ticket" ready to show the Ticket Inspector (Naam japp, kirt karo waand chhako Live the Gurmatt Life by using the TOOLS provided in the Toolbox of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji) will be TOLD OFF BY THE TICKET INSPECTOR and get booted off unceremoniously...no one is going to listen to his pleas that he was busy ..thinking..explainaig the joons..the reincarnatiosn.etc etc.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26474
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26474
IN MY BOOK..the Man..Kartoot Passu ki manush Jaat is a statement about JOONS in HUMAN LIFE FORM. No need to go look for a DOG..the ETERNAL BARKING DOG of LOBH is right inside you all the time...Bhaunkeh din raat..the Elephant of KAAM is ever ready and its in Human Body of yours..the GREED, the KRODH, the ANGER, the Lllach..all are ANIMAL JOONS LIVING INSIDE the HUMAN..and GURBANI GIVES US the "complete instructions" on HOW to GET RID of these Passus kartoots...but there isnt one Shabad that describes How i am to avoid being born a DOG in so many clear words !! How i can avoid becoming an elephant in my next joon...the Examples are all for HUMAN FORMS..and all the JOONS are there very visible.IF a human lets these JOONS control his life..then he has failed as a human..he is Manmukh and not Gurmukh ..If ahuman being is on sex all the time and keeps producing children..whats so different from a PIG ?? He is apig in human form. He is living a pig joon. GURBANI CANNOT HELP a genuine PIG..it cannot read, Gurbani, it cannot hear gurbani, understand gurbani or use Gurbani to Change hsi PIGGY LIFE..BUT a hUMAN BEING living under the control of PIGGY JOON FORCES..can do all these things. Kabir says..as a "buffalo" you will have Horns, your tongue will be blurred from having to chew the curds..your eyes will eb blearya nd your abck broken form hard work all day and night while your master whacks you harder and harder..do you think YOU can do Naam japp in that form ?? Is this a "proof" about buffalo joon or is Kabir Jis attempt to TEACH a human with BUFFALO BRAINS..to pull up his bootstraps and get cracking.. !! To me it looks like Kabir ji is TALKING to HUMANS having "buffalo brains"...otherwise why bother wriiting it down for HUMANS ??

I will try and get an essay with proper quotes from Gurbani written in English for the readers of spn on this....

2. SAKHIS..my take on them is they are manufactured after the fact..in hindsight..i only rely on GURBANI for my facts. IF a sakhi FAILS the LITMUS TEST of GURBANI..then no dice. Most sakhis are told by derawallahs and based on a very very superficial READING of Gurbani Shabads..even a slight going into depth of the shaabad reveals the fakeness.

Guru Piayario Jios,
Gurfateh.

There are extremely lengthy essays I can write on why i beleive that the Gurbani references to Hindu Mythology, the Bhagats Prehlaad, Joons, and reincarnations et al..are only references. Plenty of good arguments available in Punjabi on Sikh Marg ???? ???? and other places.
The gist of my argument is that at a large number of places..Gurbani is very clear that this HUMAN BIRTH is ONLY ONCE...it is durlaabh (invaluable), it is the One and ONLY chance we get to Merge with the Creator...Bhgats say this, the Gurus say this...again and again. Now this may not be solid proof that "joons" exist/dont exist...BUT GURU NANAK JI SAHIB came in Human Form, for the HUMAN FORM..the Gurbani was spoken in human Langauge to humans..and its written down in Human Langauge For HUMANS..and HUMAN FORM..JANAM only Happens ONCE..Gobind milan kee eh teri Bareah..this is the TURN to meet HIM..means PAY ATTENTION..LIFE IS SHORT...the END..the DESTINATION is in SIGHT..prepare to END the JOURNEY. in my book a person who goes on specualting about where he came "from"..what he was earlier..a crow..a cow..a worm..endlessly...while the TRAIN OF LIFE continues to run towards the STATION where he will ahve to GET OFF..and He doesnt bother to get his "ticket" ready to show the Ticket Inspector (Naam japp, kirt karo waand chhako Live the Gurmatt Life by using the TOOLS provided in the Toolbox of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji) will be TOLD OFF BY THE TICKET INSPECTOR and get booted off unceremoniously...no one is going to listen to his pleas that he was busy ..thinking..explainaig the joons..the reincarnatiosn.etc etc.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26474
IN MY BOOK..the Man..Kartoot Passu ki manush Jaat is a statement about JOONS in HUMAN LIFE FORM. No need to go look for a DOG..the ETERNAL BARKING DOG of LOBH is right inside you all the time...Bhaunkeh din raat..the Elephant of KAAM is ever ready and its in Human Body of yours..the GREED, the KRODH, the ANGER, the Lllach..all are ANIMAL JOONS LIVING INSIDE the HUMAN..and GURBANI GIVES US the "complete instructions" on HOW to GET RID of these Passus kartoots...but there isnt one Shabad that describes How i am to avoid being born a DOG in so many clear words !! How i can avoid becoming an elephant in my next joon...the Examples are all for HUMAN FORMS..and all the JOONS are there very visible.IF a human lets these JOONS control his life..then he has failed as a human..he is Manmukh and not Gurmukh ..If ahuman being is on sex all the time and keeps producing children..whats so different from a PIG ?? He is apig in human form. He is living a pig joon. GURBANI CANNOT HELP a genuine PIG..it cannot read, Gurbani, it cannot hear gurbani, understand gurbani or use Gurbani to Change hsi PIGGY LIFE..BUT a hUMAN BEING living under the control of PIGGY JOON FORCES..can do all these things. Kabir says..as a "buffalo" you will have Horns, your tongue will be blurred from having to chew the curds..your eyes will eb blearya nd your abck broken form hard work all day and night while your master whacks you harder and harder..do you think YOU can do Naam japp in that form ?? Is this a "proof" about buffalo joon or is Kabir Jis attempt to TEACH a human with BUFFALO BRAINS..to pull up his bootstraps and get cracking.. !! To me it looks like Kabir ji is TALKING to HUMANS having "buffalo brains"...otherwise why bother wriiting it down for HUMANS ??
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26474

I will try and get an essay with proper quotes from Gurbani written in English for the readers of spn on this....

2. SAKHIS..my take on them is they are manufactured after the fact..in hindsight..i only rely on GURBANI for my facts. IF a sakhi FAILS the LITMUS TEST of GURBANI..then no dice. Most sakhis are told by derawallahs and based on a very very superficial READING of Gurbani Shabads..even a slight going into depth of the shaabad reveals the fakeness.

Waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh

Jarnail Singh Ji,
You write " but there isnt one Shabad that describes How i am to avoid being born a DOG in so many clear words !! How i can avoid becoming an elephant in my next joon...the Examples are all for HUMAN FORMS. "

But i think there are many shabads.
I am writing One of them:-

Unt Kaall Jo Lakshmi simrey aeysi chinta jo marhe, sarap joon val val auotrey|
Unt Kaall Jo Istri simrey aeysi chinta jo marhe, vesva joon val val auotrey |
Unt Kaall Jo Munder simrey aeysi chinta jo marhe,prait jon val val auotrey |
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26474
Unt Kaall Jo Ladkey simrey aeysi chinta jo marhe,sookar jon val val auotrey |

waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki fateh|

Waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh

Jarnail Singh Ji,
You write " but there isnt one Shabad that describes How i am to avoid being born a DOG in so many clear words !! How i can avoid becoming an elephant in my next joon...the Examples are all for HUMAN FORMS. "
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26474
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26474

But i think there are many shabads.
I am writing One of them:-

Unt Kaall Jo Lakshmi simrey aeysi chinta jo marhe, sarap joon val val auotrey|
Unt Kaall Jo Istri simrey aeysi chinta jo marhe, vesva joon val val auotrey |
Unt Kaall Jo Munder simrey aeysi chinta jo marhe,prait jon val val auotrey |
Unt Kaall Jo Ladkey simrey aeysi chinta jo marhe,sookar jon val val auotrey |

waheguru ji ka khalsa Waheguru ji ki fateh|