Ardaas Changed

Inder ji

You mixed some things up here. How did negative take birth? I have no idea what you are asking i that statement. Are you asking about negative attitudes? If you are asking for evidence that Guru Gobind Singh did not write the first pauree, then your question is illogical. There can never be evidence to prove the absence of something. Think about it.

Now when you ask have these people analyzed the writing as a whole in Dasam Granth, the answer is some have and some haven't. Who are you referring to when you say some people?

Is Durga eulogised in invocation?
Most respsonsible scholars do not believe that Durga is being eulogized, including Dr. Baldev Singh and Bhai Kahan Singh, as well as Dr. Gopal Singh, based on my understanding of the article cited. And other reading I have done. In fact there are many who argue that bhagauti should not be translated as sword.

 
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Inder ji,

There is an old African proverb that says, “When there is no enemy within, the enemies outside cannot hurt you.”

I may point out in the beginning that there is no dispute that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is guru of sikhs. People to divert the topic keep on writing as if Dasam Granth has taken over guruship from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. This is like creating a phantom when there is none,

If these people have so much respct for tenth master that they beleive in his verbal edict to obey Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as Guru of sikhs then why they are so allergic to accord respect to his bani? This is like having best of both.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/25092-ardaas-changed.html

People say that so and so say that ardas is adulterated? Can they furnish a refrence in support of their claim. There is a lot of contemporary literature of that period. have they raed that literature. Making statements without back up is not proper.

So far we have one central religious authority over sikhs and that is akal takhat. That accords recognition to Dasam bani. All have to oibey that. There is no if and but here.

Inder ji

I join you in decrying the problem of creating a phantom when there is no phantom.

Let me reteirate in the beginning that all sikhs agree that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is our Guru. There is no dispute over this unless some vested interests want to create phantoms out of nowhere and pit one granth against the other.

nevertheless Dasam granth has bani of our tenth master.It is our resepected scripture al along in sikh history. We just can not ignore this. Writings of our Gurus is bani . So is dasam granth.

Some people are making claim that ardas pauri is adulterated. We have contemporary sikh literature of that period. Do they mention that? If they have read that please let us know.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=25092
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=25092

Akal takhat is central sikh authority over religious issues. They accord recognition to Dasam bani. If some do not want to obey that the only alternative for them is form a new sect like radhasoami,sindhis, etc. They are the ones who disown tenth amster.

aad0002 ji

This may be interesting for you to read

Charles malcolm was a British general posted with Governor General of India during Sikh rule.Holkar ,a maratha chief, had taken shelter with maharaja Ranjit singh. Charles Malcolm came to Amritsar in 1805 in pursuit of Holkar.


While at Amritsar he was a witness to a Gurmatta conducted at Amritsar in 1805. Later he wrote a book “Sketch of sikhs” in 1812. On page 120 to 123 , he writes the presence of Dasam granth at Gurmatta

quote

Guru-mata
When Gurmata or great national council, is called, (as it always is, or ought to be, when any imminent danger threatens the country, or any large expedition is to be undertaken) all the Sikh chiefs assemble at Amritsar. The assembly, which is called the Guru-mata, is convened by the Acalis; and when the chiefs meet upon this solemn occasion, it is concluded that all private animosities cease, and that every main sacrifices his personal feelings at the shrine of the general good; and, actuated by principles of pure patriotism, thinks of nothing but the interests of the religion, and commonwealth, to which he belongs.
When the chiefs and principal leaders are seated, the Adi-Granth and Dasama Padshah ka Granth are placed before them. They all bend their heads before these scriptures, and exclaim, Wa! Guruji ka Khalsa! Wa! Guruji ki Fateh! A great quantity of cakes, made of wheat, butter, and sugar, are then placed before the volumes of their sacred writings, and covered with a cloth. These holy cakes, which are in commemoration of the injunction of Nanac, to eat and to give to others to eat, next receive the salutation of the assembly, who then rise, and the Acalis pray aloud, while the musicians play. The Acalis, then the prayers are finished, desire the council to be seated. They sit down, and the cakes being uncovered, are eaten of by all classes of Sikhs: those distinctions of original tribes, which are, on occasions, kept up, being on this occasion laid aside, in token of their general and complete union in one cause. The Acalis then exclaim: “Sirdars! (Chiefs) this is Guru-mata!” on which prayers are again said aloud. The chiefs, after this sit closer, and say to each other: “The sacred Granth is betwixt us, let us swear by our scripture to forget all internal disputes, and to be united.” This moment of religious fervor and ardent patriotism, is taken to reconcile all animosities. They then proceed to consider the danger with whcih they are threatened, to settle the best plans for averting it, and to choose the generals who are to lead their armies against the common enemy. The first Guru-mata was assembled by Guru Govinid; and the latest was called in 1805, when the British army pursued Holkar into the Penjab.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=25092
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=25092
(pages. 120-123)
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*Sir John Malcolm (May 2, 1769 ‑ 1833) was a Scottish soldier, statesman, and historian. He held various distinguished posts, being Ambassador to Persia, Resident of Gwalior (1803-1804) and Governor of Bombay 1827-1830. He was the author of several valuable works regarded as authorities, viz., Sketch of the Sikhs, a singular nation in the province of Penjab (1812), A History of Persia (1815), Memoir of Central India (1823), Political History of India from 1784 to 1823 (1826),and Life of Lord Clive (1836).

From Sketch of sikhs by Charles Malcolm

So-called 'scholars' and 'professors' cannot even begin to fathom the knowledge that has flowed from the pen of the Tenth Master.

They way I look at it is that whatever these doubters don't understand, they dismiss as being false.

Most Brahmgianis will never doubt the Bani of the Tenth Master. We should be looking at these individuals because they have the knowledge of God. The knowledge of worldly scholars cannot compare.

In my opinion, yes it is the Sri Guru Granth Sahib that is our Guru. It is also the Guru for mankind. That is why its contents is purely spiritual in nature, and are not limited to Sikhi alone. It contains a message for all paths to follow.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=25092

Sri Dasam Granth is the temporal, rather than spiritual scripture. It is the scripture that addresses the Khalsa.

Putting it another way, Sri Guru Granth Sahib is like Harimandir Sahib - with four doors and welcoming people of all backgrounds. Sri Dasam Granth is like the Akal Takht. It addresses spirituality in a temporal and worldly manner.

Very well said.

Gilding of Sri harmandir sahib was done in late eighteenth century under the supervision of Lehna singh majithia. At the entrance door is inscription of pauri of ardas from the pen of tenth master.

Inder Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for responding to my post. I hope we keep an open mind so we can discuss this from the Gurmat stand point rather than from some personally cultivated beliefs.

First of all let us talk about the facts.

1.Only Guru Gobind Singh ji knows what he wrote. No one else can make the claim about his writings no matter how much he/she claims to have the scholarly skills.

2. Only our 10th Guru knows why he decided not to share what he wrote. We all know through history that he had many poets with him at Poanta Sahib who also must have written a lot of poetry. One wonders where is that!

As I mentioned in my post that our 10th Guru was a polyglot and a great poet. So to decide on our own which are his thoughts is sheer self centeredness and disrespect to our 10th Guru by second guessing his decision

I am confused about your baseless claim. What proof do you have that Ardaas was written by the 10th Guru? It is you who needs to show the proof. We have the proof which Guru wrote which Gurbani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. As Antonia ji said, one can not prove the negative.

Once again, how do you know it is our 10th Guru's bani when he himself did not claim it? Arn't we being arrogantly ignorant here? His wearing kalgi or not has nothing to do with anything and has no bearing in this discussion.

Declaring something without showing the detailed researched reasons based on Gurmat ideals and keeping the spirit of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in the decision is blasphemy in my opinion. I have no idea what it means by mischief mongers. If that is part of the decision then it proves that Akaal Takhat does not want to have an honest debate with those who disagree which is again against Gurmat ideals because Sikhi is based on questioning. Our Gurus questioned what they deemed wrong and once again not even Akaal Takhat has the right to second guess our 10th Guru. No one does. There is no authority who can do that. It is disrespect to our 10th Guru and when Akaal Takhat does that, we as Sikhs and the followers of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji should raise our voice rather than keeping mum.

That is a very valid point. Please translate the first part of Ardaas for us that you claim was wirtten by our 10th Guru in English so we can discuss about it. While doing so, keep Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as our only Guru in the picture and IK ONG KAAR- THE SOURCE OF ALL. No one, nothing else.

Now, here you go accusing others of something that you have no proof of. Is this the Sikhi way you claim to adhere to?

Personal attacks at others without proof is anti Gurmat and shows a lot more about the accuser than anything else.

Let us just focus on the subject in the thread rather than false accusations. This will help us have an open mind which will result in making us better Sikhs.

I hope to have a civilised discussion with you which is the Gurmat way.

Tejwant Singh