Can Faith in the Satguru Ever be Blind?

Narayanjot Kaur · #1 (**permalink**) 22-Oct-2008, 11:07 AM

I am troubled by this question. Guruji so many times speaks to us, saying that our liberation mukhti comes when we "see" and when we are not blind. I have copied this shabad from sri Raag, as a beginning for my own contemplation of this question.

Is this blind faith: Without the Lord, my soul is scorched and burnt. I consulted my Guru, and now I see that there is no other place at all. ||1|

The shabad

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
ik oankaar sathigur prasaadh ||
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

ਰਾਗੁ ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ਪਹਿਲਾ ੧ ਘਰੁ ੧ ॥
raag sireeraag mehalaa pehilaa 1 ghar 1 ||
Raag Siree Raag, First Mehl, First House:

ਮੋਤੀ ਤ ਮੰਦਰ ਊਸਰਹਿ ਰਤਨੀ ਤ ਹੋਹਿ ਜੜਾਉ ॥
mothee th mandhar oosarehi rathanee th hohi jarraao ||
If I had a palace made of pearls, inlaid with jewels,

ਕਸਤੂਰਿ ਕੁੰਗੂ ਅਗਰਿ ਚੰਦਨਿ ਲੀਪਿ ਆਵੈ ਚਾਉ ॥
kasathoor kungoo agar chandhan leep aavai chaao ||
scented with musk, saffron and sandalwood, a sheer delight to behold

ਮਤੁ ਦੇਖਿ ਭੂਲਾ ਵੀਸਰੈ ਤੇਰਾ ਚਿਤਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨਾਉ ॥੧॥
math dhaekh bhoolaa veesarai thaeraa chith n aavai naao ||1||
-seeing this, I might go astray and forget You, and Your Name would not enter into my mind. ||1||

ਹਰਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਜੀਉ ਜਲਿ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਉ ॥
har bin jeeo jal bal jaao ||
Without the Lord, my soul is scorched and burnt.

ਮੈ ਆਪਣਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਛਿ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਅਵਰੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਥਾਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
mai aapanaa gur pooshh dhaekhiaa avar naahee thhaao ||1|| rehaao ||
I consulted my Guru, and now I see that there is no other place at all. ||1||Pause||

ਧਰਤੀ ਤ ਹੀਰੇ ਲਾਲ ਜੜਤੀ ਪਲਘਿ ਲਾਲ ਜੜਾਉ ॥
dhharathee th heerae laal jarrathee palagh laal jarraao ||
If the floor of this palace was a mosaic of diamonds and rubies, and if my bed was encased with rubies,

ਮੋਹਣੀ ਮੁਖਿ ਮਣੀ ਸੋਹੈ ਕਰੇ ਰੰਗਿ ਪਸਾਉ ॥
mohanee mukh manee sohai karae rang pasaao ||
and if heavenly beauties, their faces adorned with emeralds, tried to entice me with sensual gestures of love

ਮਤੁ ਦੇਖਿ ਭੂਲਾ ਵੀਸਰੈ ਤੇਰਾ ਚਿਤਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨਾਉ ॥੨॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-sikhi-sikhism/23304-can-faith-in-satguru-ever-blind.html
math dhaekh bhoolaa veesarai thaeraa chith n aavai naao ||2||
-seeing these, I might go astray and forget You, and Your Name would not enter into my mind. ||2||

ਸਿਧੁ ਹੋਵਾ ਸਿਧਿ ਲਾਈ ਰਿਧਿ ਆਖਾ ਆਉ ॥
sidhh hovaa sidhh laaee ridhh aakhaa aao ||
If I were to become a Siddha, and work miracles, summon wealth

ਗੁਪਤੁ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਹੋਇ ਬੈਸਾ ਲੋਕੁ ਰਾਖੈ ਭਾਉ ॥
gupath paragatt hoe baisaa lok raakhai bhaao ||
and become invisible and visible at will, so that people would hold me in awe

ਮਤੁ ਦੇਖਿ ਭੂਲਾ ਵੀਸਰੈ ਤੇਰਾ ਚਿਤਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨਾਉ ॥੩॥
math dhaekh bhoolaa veesarai thaeraa chith n aavai naao ||3||
-seeing these, I might go astray and forget You, and Your Name would not enter into my mind. ||3||

ਸੁਲਤਾਨੁ ਹੋਵਾ ਮੇਲਿ ਲਸਕਰ ਤਖਤਿ ਰਾਖਾ ਪਾਉ ॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23304
sulathaan hovaa mael lasakar thakhath raakhaa paao ||
If I were to become an emperor and raise a huge army, and sit on a throne,

ਹੁਕਮੁ ਹਾਸਲੁ ਕਰੀ ਬੈਠਾ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਸਭ ਵਾਉ ॥
hukam haasal karee baithaa naanakaa sabh vaao ||
issuing commands and collecting taxes-O Nanak, all of this could pass away like a puff of wind.

ਮਤੁ ਦੇਖਿ ਭੂਲਾ ਵੀਸਰੈ ਤੇਰਾ ਚਿਤਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨਾਉ ॥੪॥੧॥
math dhaekh bhoolaa veesarai thaeraa chith n aavai naao ||4||1||
Seeing these, I might go astray and forget You, and Your Name would not enter into my mind. ||4||1||

The shabad is from the house of Guru Nanak Dev on Ang 14 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj.

There is no blindness spoken of in the shabad but rather the shabad talks about "seeing", awareness. Awareness is described as torn between seeing the Lord and seeing the delightful creatons of our senses and mind, believing and taking them for the truth. The richness of palaces, their mosaics of diamonds and rubies, the scent of musk, saffron and sandalwood, the apparent power of holy men who can become invisible, and then visible, and summon wealth, the power of leadership, huge armies, wealth-- seeing these our eyes lead us astray.

Could it be that blind faith in the truth of these illusions is the real blind faith?

rabjot_singh@yahoo.co.in · #2 (**permalink**) 22-Oct-2008, 13:14 PM

Dear Ma'am,

Thers is no harm in enjoying material pleasures like living in a lavish House , earning huge money, getting married & starting a family.

Awareness here indicates that we should neither indulge in anything too much (perfo nor should we renounce it completely but rather we should be aware ( for what purpose we have taken birth) all the time.

This is the beauty of Nanak's message. Unlike many other prophets or sages who completely left their family to attain enlightment ( Buddha included) & many people who perform strict practices like fasting etc, Praying to demi gods, sacrificing animals to make their deity happy Nanak claimed that salvation can be attained by avoiding those strict & rather needless practices and living the life of a householder (Married man). & reciting naam & contemplating on it.

The main message of Granth sahib can be explained in words of Guru Nanak

हसंदिआ खेलंदिआ पैनंदिआ खावंदिआ विचे होवै मुकति ॥२॥ While laughing more often, playing, dressing in style and eating healthy food, salvation should be attained
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23304

Nanak says here that while enjoying the life of a householder (married life) but always following the right path as prescribed by our legendary gurus the salvation can be achieved.

Nanak advocated that we should always remain aware of our main purpose while at the same time we can enjoy material pleasure (earned in truthful way) as well.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23304

Temptations of sex & money might deviate us from the right path so we have to be very strong mentally.

Randip Singh · #3 (**permalink**) 22-Oct-2008, 14:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aad0002

I am troubled by this question. Guruji so many times speaks to us, saying that our liberation mukhti comes when we "see" and when we are not blind. I have copied this shabad from sri Raag, as a beginning for my own contemplation of this question.

Is this blind faith: Without the Lord, my soul is scorched and burnt. I consulted my Guru, and now I see that there is no other place at all. ||1|

The shabad

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
ik oankaar sathigur prasaadh ||
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

ਰਾਗੁ ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ਪਹਿਲਾ ੧ ਘਰੁ ੧ ॥
raag sireeraag mehalaa pehilaa 1 ghar 1 ||
Raag Siree Raag, First Mehl, First House:

ਮੋਤੀ ਤ ਮੰਦਰ ਊਸਰਹਿ ਰਤਨੀ ਤ ਹੋਹਿ ਜੜਾਉ ॥
mothee th mandhar oosarehi rathanee th hohi jarraao ||
If I had a palace made of pearls, inlaid with jewels,

ਕਸਤੂਰਿ ਕੁੰਗੂ ਅਗਰਿ ਚੰਦਨਿ ਲੀਪਿ ਆਵੈ ਚਾਉ ॥
kasathoor kungoo agar chandhan leep aavai chaao ||
scented with musk, saffron and sandalwood, a sheer delight to behold

ਮਤੁ ਦੇਖਿ ਭੂਲਾ ਵੀਸਰੈ ਤੇਰਾ ਚਿਤਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨਾਉ ॥੧॥
math dhaekh bhoolaa veesarai thaeraa chith n aavai naao ||1||
-seeing this, I might go astray and forget You, and Your Name would not enter into my mind. ||1||

ਹਰਿ ਬਿਨੁ ਜੀਉ ਜਲਿ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਉ ॥
har bin jeeo jal bal jaao ||
Without the Lord, my soul is scorched and burnt.

ਮੈ ਆਪਣਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਛਿ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਅਵਰੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਥਾਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
mai aapanaa gur pooshh dhaekhiaa avar naahee thhaao ||1|| rehaao ||
I consulted my Guru, and now I see that there is no other place at all. ||1||Pause||

ਧਰਤੀ ਤ ਹੀਰੇ ਲਾਲ ਜੜਤੀ ਪਲਘਿ ਲਾਲ ਜੜਾਉ ॥
dhharathee th heerae laal jarrathee palagh laal jarraao ||
If the floor of this palace was a mosaic of diamonds and rubies, and if my bed was encased with rubies,

ਮੋਹਣੀ ਮੁਖਿ ਮਣੀ ਸੋਹੈ ਕਰੇ ਰੰਗਿ ਪਸਾਉ ॥
mohanee mukh manee sohai karae rang pasaao ||
and if heavenly beauties, their faces adorned with emeralds, tried to entice me with sensual gestures of love

ਮਤੁ ਦੇਖਿ ਭੂਲਾ ਵੀਸਰੈ ਤੇਰਾ ਚਿਤਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨਾਉ ॥੨॥
math dhaekh bhoolaa veesarai thaeraa chith n aavai naao ||2||
-seeing these, I might go astray and forget You, and Your Name would not enter into my mind. ||2||

ਸਿਧੁ ਹੋਵਾ ਸਿਧਿ ਲਾਈ ਰਿਧਿ ਆਖਾ ਆਉ ॥
sidhh hovaa sidhh laaee ridhh aakhaa aao ||
If I were to become a Siddha, and work miracles, summon wealth

ਗੁਪਤੁ ਪਰਗਟੁ ਹੋਇ ਬੈਸਾ ਲੋਕੁ ਰਾਖੈ ਭਾਉ ॥
gupath paragatt hoe baisaa lok raakhai bhaao ||
and become invisible and visible at will, so that people would hold me in awe

ਮਤੁ ਦੇਖਿ ਭੂਲਾ ਵੀਸਰੈ ਤੇਰਾ ਚਿਤਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨਾਉ ॥੩॥
math dhaekh bhoolaa veesarai thaeraa chith n aavai naao ||3||
-seeing these, I might go astray and forget You, and Your Name would not enter into my mind. ||3||

ਸੁਲਤਾਨੁ ਹੋਵਾ ਮੇਲਿ ਲਸਕਰ ਤਖਤਿ ਰਾਖਾ ਪਾਉ ॥
sulathaan hovaa mael lasakar thakhath raakhaa paao ||
If I were to become an emperor and raise a huge army, and sit on a throne,

ਹੁਕਮੁ ਹਾਸਲੁ ਕਰੀ ਬੈਠਾ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਸਭ ਵਾਉ ॥
hukam haasal karee baithaa naanakaa sabh vaao ||
issuing commands and collecting taxes-O Nanak, all of this could pass away like a puff of wind.

ਮਤੁ ਦੇਖਿ ਭੂਲਾ ਵੀਸਰੈ ਤੇਰਾ ਚਿਤਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਨਾਉ ॥੪॥੧॥
math dhaekh bhoolaa veesarai thaeraa chith n aavai naao ||4||1||
Seeing these, I might go astray and forget You, and Your Name would not enter into my mind. ||4||1||

The shabad is from the house of Guru Nanak Dev on Ang 14 of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj.

There is no blindness spoken of in the shabad but rather the shabad talks about "seeing", awareness. Awareness is described as torn between seeing the Lord and seeing the delightful creatons of our senses and mind, believing and taking them for the truth. The richness of palaces, their mosaics of diamonds and rubies, the scent of musk, saffron and sandalwood, the apparent power of holy men who can become invisible, and then visible, and summon wealth, the power of leadership, huge armies, wealth-- seeing these our eyes lead us astray.

Could it be that blind faith in the truth of these illusions is the real blind faith?

I could be wrong but is this shabad using examples of Kaam, Krodh, Moh, Lobh, and Hankaar that may make the mind wander, and take one away from the path of the Gurmukh?

rabjot_singh@yahoo.co.in · #4 (**permalink**) 22-Oct-2008, 15:53 PM

Dear Sir,

These verses are self explanatory.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23304
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23304
Guru nanak prays to the supreme that if by some temptation he deviates from the right path he should be at the mercy of god who will bring him back (but off course that never happened). Nanak is emphasising the importance of a true guru (his guru is nirankar almighty) who will lead u in the right direction.

Narayanjot Kaur · #5 (**permalink**) 22-Oct-2008, 20:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randip singh

I could be wrong but is this shabad using examples of Kaam, Krodh, Moh, Lobh, and Hankaar that may make the mind wander, and take one away from the path of the Gurmukh?

The shabad does use examples of the 5 theives -- that take one away from the Guru. But in the shabad one is "seeing" those examples and is pulled by their attractiveness toward the 5 evils.

The poetic structure of the shabad is having us consider "seeing" one kind of thing and going in one direction; or "seeing" the Divine and going in another direction.

Is it possible that blind faith in the truth of the senses is what leads one into the direction of Kaam, Krodh, Moh,Lobh and Ahankar, and away from the Satguru?

Again my question -- how can faith in the Satguru ever be blind, per Gurbani?

pk70 · #6 (**permalink**) 22-Oct-2008, 22:53 PM

Satguru experienced the Lord, to have that experience, one must follow what Guru says to experience Him, so it is not to have blind faith but to follow instruction prfectly; if our own intellect could help us we wouldn't need Guru, but it doesn't, so we need Guru and we need to abandon what we have in our head; hyper rationality calls it" blind faith". Thats all.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23304

Narayanjot Kaur · #7 (**permalink**) 22-Oct-2008, 23:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pk70

Satguru experienced the Lord, to have that experience, one must follow what Guru says to experience Him, so it is not to have blind faith but to follow instruction prfectly; if our own intellect could help us we wouldn't need Guru, but it doesn't, so we need Guru and we need to abandon what we have in our head; hyper rationality calls it" blind faith". Thats all.

What about blind obedience? I don't think faith is blind. But rather people confuse blind faith with blind obedience.

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #8 (**permalink**) 23-Oct-2008, 11:33 AM

The GURU..is the LIGHT.
In a dark room we cannot "see" naything even though its all right there...
BUT just pull the light switch..and the moment the light bulb lights up the room with LIGHT..we can SEE every single thing....
Its NOT the Light Bulb/light rays per se that "see"..its our eyes/brain that sees....the light just helps us see...
That is the GURU. FOLLOW his instructions (Gurbani) as closely as possible..and lo and behold..the eyes open and we see (in the light of Gurbani) GURBANI IS JAGG MEHN CHANNAN !!

2. A small story. A man who used to always and faithfully attend Gurdwara and do sewa and eat langgar...overnight stopped doing that when he struck a lottery..and began to go clubbing/disco..and drinking away. People said..all that MONEY spoiled him..spoiled a good holy man...
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23304
I SAY.... no....the money didnt spoil him... the MONEY is just the light bulb that showed all the KOORR (Rubbish) that he had stored inside him all along...he was just coming to Gurdwara as he ahd nowhere else to go..having no money to enter Clubs.buy whiskey and pay for dancing girls/ etc etc.... once he got the means..he showed his true colours !!
THE GURU is THAT..He allows YOU and ME to show the true colours !!

Happy Diwali or Bandi Chorr Diwas !! (any which way one likes - for me its just a holiday to laze around and eat lots of Barfee/Khoya/jalebis...)
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23304

Jarnail Singh

Narayanjot Kaur · #9 (**permalink**) 23-Oct-2008, 20:16 PM

Giani ji

ਅੰਧੇ ਚਾਨਣੁ ਤਾ ਥੀਐ ਜਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਰਜਾਇ ॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23304
andhhae chaanan thaa thheeai jaa sathigur milai rajaae ||
The blind receive the Divine Light, when they merge with the Will of the True Guru.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23304

ਬੰਧਨ ਤੋੜੈ ਸਚਿ ਵਸੈ ਅਗਿਆਨੁ ਅਧੇਰਾ ਜਾਇ ॥
bandhhan thorrai sach vasai agiaan adhhaeraa jaae ||
They break their bonds, and dwell in Truth, and the darkness of ignorance is dispelled.

ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਦੇਖੈ ਤਿਸੈ ਕਾ ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਆ ਤਨੁ ਸਾਜਿ ॥
sabh kishh dhaekhai thisai kaa jin keeaa than saaj ||
They see that everything belongs to the One who created and fashioned the body.

ਨਾਨਕ ਸਰਣਿ ਕਰਤਾਰ ਕੀ ਕਰਤਾ ਰਾਖੈ ਲਾਜ ॥੨॥
naanak saran karathaar kee karathaa raakhai laaj ||2||
Nanak seeks the Sanctuary of the Creator - the Creator preserves his honor. ||2||

Ang 551

This shabad seems to match what you are saying. Two lines from a hymn called Amazing Grace.

I once was blind, but now i see.
Once lost, but now I am found.

Enjoy Diwali with all that wonderful food.