Guru Nanak Dev ji: How we traverse the treacherous/Bhavjal world? .. 2

Ambarsaria · #1 (**permalink**) 21-Aug-2012, 06:37 AM

Here in Sidh Gohst, Guru Nanak Dave ji are asked this question. This is almost in a format of a respectful Question/Answer or Interview style of composition. We learn of Gur Nanak Dev ji’s succinct thoughts on this.

Let us review the following,

Sidhas/Yogis ask:

Quote:

ਦੁਨੀਆ ਸਾਗਰੁ ਦੁਤਰੁ ਕਹੀਐ ਕਿਉ ਕਰਿ ਪਾਈਐ ਪਾਰੋ ॥ ……..॥
Ḏunī▫ā sāgar ḏuṯar kahī▫ai ki▫o kar pā▫ī▫ai pāro. Cẖarpat bolai a▫oḏẖū Nānak ḏeh sacẖā bīcẖāro.
The world is called the hard to cross ocean, how could the other bank be found?

Guru Ji’s answers:

Quote:

ਜੈਸੇ ਜਲ ਮਹਿ ਕਮਲੁ ਨਿਰਾਲਮੁ ਮੁਰਗਾਈ ਨੈ ਸਾਣੇ ॥ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਭਵ ਸਾਗਰੁ ਤਰੀਐ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਖਾਣੇ ॥
Jaise jal mėh kamal nirālam murgā▫ī nai sāṇe. Suraṯ sabaḏ bẖav sāgar ṯarī▫ai Nānak nām vakẖāṇe.
Just as the lotus flower so floats without support, the swan’s wings don’t become wet. Nanak says, in contemplation and concentrating on creator’s understanding, one so traverses the frightening ocean.

Guru ji wonderfully that such happens ever so naturally. Knowing of the creator in living is the key. No hardships, hard regimens or all such “dhakvanj”/convolutions are needed.

Question becomes Guru ji’s teach us about all world is as though tranquil and self executing how does it reflect in our living as Sikhs?

What you think?

Sat Sri Akal.

PS: Please see the appropriate complete Shabad here,

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sidh-g...1-16-73-a.html

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #2 (**permalink**) 21-Aug-2012, 12:01 PM

Its my humble opinion that we Sikhs have got the Gurus Message the wrong way up...

Example..we all enroll in Kindergarten..or primary School for an "education"...we have absolutley NO IDEA what this "education" is..its just done..everyone does it..so our parents put us in school..its just done by everyone...its the NORM...
We begin with ABC....123...and we progress to Primary..secondary..High..college..university..PHD etc...and then we KNOW what this thing called EDUCATION was all about....about becoming a better person..an employable person..a person of high regard..a person people follow..ask for advise..etc etc..
And we STILL have the Basic ABC..123....we CANNOT discard those..the things that we began on decades ago...we are back to the Beginning fo the CIRCLE we call EDUCATION.

The Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji...our "SCHOOL" of Life..begins with EK Oangkar..satnam...the ABC...123..of this subject !! The Subject that will make us BETTER persons, better humans, humans of high regard,..high morals..compassionate..etc etc...and AFTER we have read through, understood and APPLIED the GYAAN in the 1429 Pages of the TEXTBOOK of the School of Life..the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji..we then come back FULL CIRCLE..to the EK OANGKAAR SATNAM...the ABC..the 123...of our Beginning School Days...

Just like in Normal school..we have no idea of the significance of the ABC..the 123...except that we must memorize them..say them aloud..write them down..spell them..etc etc..and then slowly we learn how to USE them..Understand them..see their POWER..what they can do..how our life becomes changed by the ABC...s
AN Engineer..a Doctor emerges form the END of the School of education..and he ahs to ADAPT the GYAAN he learnt to the OUTSIDE WORLD. A Doctor is of no use if he cannot use the gyaan he learnt to cure a sick man...or an engineer who cant build bridges or chemical plants.. The Grave Mistake made is IF the Engineer or doc assumes he was just meant to KNOW that EDUCATION is founded on ABC..and 123. Period. IF asked..what is EDUCATION..his answer..ABC..123...anyone who knows whats ABC..and 123 is "EDUCATED" Period.

SIKHS have made that same mistake. They assume the EK Oangkar Satnam..is the "DESCRIPTION..the FOUNDATION of the CREATOR"...anyone who is a SIKH.."knows" the EK Oangkar stanam is the CREATOR. !!
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sidh-gosht/38961-guru-nanak-dev-ji-how-we.html

Its my humble opinion that the EK Oangkarr satnam etc is a DESCRIPTION of a SIKH and His QUALITIES..to show that he has COMPLETED the 1429 page Course of LIFE in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. A SIKH who has SUCCESSFULLY Completed and BECOME...EK with Oangkaar...His LIFE is SAT..in fact his "name" could be TRUTH because he never has a tiny lie inside of hism..his thoughts..his actions..his writings..his speech..EVERYTHING is Based on SAT...TRUTH....The GYAAN of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji empowers him to be NIRBHAU...FEARLESS even of "DEATH" (mans GREATEST FEAR )..he becomes NIRVAIR..because he sees The CREATOR in each human, animal, creature...so how can he be enemy with anyone..anything..??? He knows that the Creator is the Karta Purakh..he as a human is also the "creator"..of many good things..creations..he becomes AJOONIE..by discarding the Animal Instincts inside of him..the anger the krodh, the lobh the lobh of a dog..the kaam of an elephant..the greed of a ...and GURPARSAAD becomes the TURNING POINT of everything he does...HUKM becomes paramount..he treats Dukh sukh as equals...
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38961

Thus the GYAAN..the EDUCATION of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji enables the Lowly HUMAN to cross the Ocean of Maya as effortlessly as the swan swims on the pond...the swan is not afraid of drowning..or the water..he doenst fear storms..he is nirbhau...calm...

I see the SUN Rising at EK Oanglar...and the Sun SETTING at nauvan mahalla SLOKS...and the entire LIFE in between page 1 - 1429...I see a human BORN on Page ONE...and growing OLD at Page 1429...I see the same microcosm of LIFE from page 1 of Japji to Gayeh musakkt ghaal..end of Life...IF one proceeds from Page One Japji sahib and ends WITHOUT any Musakkat Ghaal..then it means the Engineer who just has kitabee book knolwedge...and cant build a bridge by applying what he learned...

Just my thoughts..and ramblings..apologies for any errors...and omissions..

Ambarsaria · #3 (**permalink**) 23-Aug-2012, 05:36 AM

Gyanji Jarnail Singh ji thanks for your post. I have some comments on the following part of your post and more from a philosophical rather than a Sikhism perspective,

Quote:

I see the SUN Rising at EK Oanglar...and the Sun SETTING at nauvan mahalla SLOKS...and the entire LIFE in between page 1 - 1429...I see a human BORN on Page ONE...and growing OLD at Page 1429...I see the same microcosm of LIFE from page 1 of Japji to Gayeh musakkt ghaal..end of Life...IF one proceeds from Page One Japji sahib and ends WITHOUT any Musakkat Ghaal..then it means the Engineer who just has kitabee book knolwedge...and cant build a bridge by applying what he learned...

I believe that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji was in its formative albeit quite advanced state when Guru Nanak Dev ji were engaging in Sidh Gohst dialog. I believe Guru ji's message was pure without any association to any teachings or treatise of Gurbani. Moreover Guru ji recognized that many would be in a state of knowing just by grace of the creator while expending little to no deep thinking or contemplative effort.

We as Sikhs need to keep this always in the forefront of our minds. It provides strength and ever lasting character to Sikhism. One creator, all so created and none below or above anyone else. There being no question as to regimens and such needs for some and many other similar contemplative approaches. However what reins supreme in Sikhism is the focus on eternal creator and truths so associated. Let such always stay our focus. What better teacher to be so guided from! None that I know of like Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

What others and all think!

Sat Sri Akal.

Luckysingh · #4 (**permalink**) 23-Aug-2012, 06:18 AM

In the first line, Charpat (charpat bolai) asks how other bank or side is found or reached.

ਦੁਨੀਆ ਸਾਗਰੁ ਦੁਤਰੁ ਕਹੀਐ ਕਿਉ ਕਰਿ ਪਾਈਐ ਪਾਰੋ ॥ ……..॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38961
Ḏunī▫ā sāgar ḏuṯar kahī▫ai ki▫o kar pā▫ī▫ai pāro. Cẖarpat bolai a▫oḏẖū Nānak ḏeh sacẖā bīcẖāro.
The world is called the hard to cross ocean, how could the other bank be found?

Remembering that this sidh's or yogis are questioning the young Nanak.
They do feel as if they are wiser and their questions are direct and directed in a manner of speaking down to someone less wise or younger.

Nanak answers,
ਜੈਸੇ ਜਲ ਮਹਿ ਕਮਲੁ ਨਿਰਾਲਮੁ ਮੁਰਗਾਈ ਨੈ ਸਾਣੇ ॥ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਭਵ ਸਾਗਰੁ ਤਰੀਐ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਖਾਣੇ ॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38961
Jaise jal mėh kamal nirālam murgā▫ī nai sāṇe. Suraṯ sabaḏ bẖav sāgar ṯarī▫ai Nānak nām vakẖāṇe.
Just as the lotus flower so floats without support, the swan’s wings don’t become wet. Nanak says, in contemplation and concentrating on creator’s understanding, one so traverses the frightening ocean.

The lotus flower floats on the surface and it's shape of beauty remains untouched or changed by the water. Although the direction of flow is not determined by it, it floats upto the point that the water may take it. In the same manner, the swan goes into a direction of which it has an idea. But still it's wings don't become wet or affected in the water that guides it to the destination.
Let's imagine thatthis water may contain a pollutant or a coloured dye!! Then there would still be no problem as the lotus would still be seen untouched from above and so would the swan's wings. They would still remain 'unaffected' by the colours of the water.
We can cross in the same manner, providing we don't get affected by the colours or dyes of the surrounding ocean.

I wonder what charpat really thought with this response.

Scarlet Pimpernel · #5 (**permalink**) 23-Aug-2012, 22:07 PM

Quote:

Let's imagine thatthis water may contain a pollutant or a coloured dye!!

Lucky Veer Ji The water he talks about is not wet so mixing dyes is not an option,and by the way the Swan is not really a Swan ,maybe us talking about the illusion is part of the illusion.

Luckysingh · #6 (**permalink**) 24-Aug-2012, 13:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scarlet Pimpernel

Lucky Veer Ji The water he talks about is not wet so mixing dyes is not an option,and by the way the Swan is not really a Swan either

.

I'm not too sure what you mean, exactly ?
However, you have got me thinking further into realising how to realise!!

I think your saying it's an ''illusion'', because this is what you have made me come to realise now!

We know it's a metaphor about how does one get to the other side or shore of the world terrifying ocean.
The other side or shore is ''Self Realisation'' which Nanak does infact have!!

How does one get this self realisation ?
Only by focusing the consciousness on the real truth can one get to the other side or shore.

The world ocean or the water is representing the '''maya or world illusion,'' through which we must cross. But if keep the focus on the Guru's word of truth, then we can come to ''realise this truth', whilst being unaffected by the water or world illusion!

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #7 (**permalink**) 24-Aug-2012, 15:41 PM

Gurbani is way beyond our little boxes...
Vela..Amrit Vela..and Sikhs get stuck inside their self created little boxes...
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38961
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38961
and begin insisting the "real" Amrit vela is SUNRISE..or 3 hours Before sunrise..or this and that...
BUT Gurbani is way out of such small boxes...
IF Vela has to be Sunrise..then in the North Pole the Sun never sets for 6 Months and Never Rises for another 6...in Space..there would be no such sun risings/settings etc BUT GURBANI being Universal applies everywhere and any place.
Je VELA VAKHAT Vicharsee kit vela bhagatee hoi.?? Here Vela is HUMAN LIFE TIME..human clocks and "time tables" etc dont have any significance..

Similarly the World ocean..Maya as a world of water etc all are metaphors for the HUMAN MIND..we LOOK within to CROSS the Void..colour ourselves with HIS COLOURS..HIS GUNNS and wash out our augunns...and Cross OVER..without need of any boat or captain...

Ambarsaria · #8 (**permalink**) 26-Aug-2012, 08:05 AM

Luckysingh veer ji it is a very interesting contemplation. Let us review the following from your post,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luckysingh

.....

Only by focusing the consciousness on the real truth can one get to the other side or shore.

The key word is "real truth". What is real truth,

- A young man close to your heart dies, you say it has to be
- A person close to you gets Cancer, you say it has to be
- Someone is starving and another is gorging and wasting, you say it has to be
- One lives in a palace and another in shanty town, you say it has to be
- So all variations of so called classified per our limitations or consciousness as "good that happens" and "bad that happens".

When can we have a realization that the "good that happens" and the "bad that happens" are just to be? So we start to treat such as no different from each other.

Is it the "real truth"? If it is so, a whole way of living emerges. The treacherous/bhavjal doesn't mean anything anymore.

By the way this approach does not preclude us from making effort to do better or seek better in all and everywhere, but it provides a backstop to be not dis-heartened and throw up our hands.

Sat Sri Akal.

PS: Brother Scarlet Pimpernel is one heck of a smart man wahmunda mundahug. Great contributions.

Scarlet Pimpernel · #9 (**permalink**) 27-Aug-2012, 02:57 AM

Veer Ji Only he is wise as Sukhrat said who understands 'the extent of his own ignorance' and to this end I've made a little head way or perhaps I'm a smart sophist,either way I'm subordinate to yourself in all ways .