Petitionary Prayer and Hukam

If everything happens per Hukam, then what's the point of petitionary prayer or ardaas where something is asked for? If Waheguru is the inner-knower, and It provides everything all the time, how can my concentrated asking possibly influence the outcome of anything?
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Isn't it better to "pray" to accept whatever happens than ask for anything else?

As much as i'd love to have the kind of relationship with the Creator when I'm always talking to It, asking for help and guidance, I just can't work it out...

Thoughts appreciated.

Gurfateh

 
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Ishna Ji..
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IF you read Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji..there is no shabad "asking" for anything except HIS Nazar...His blessings..His Hukm..His Grace..His Gurparsaad...no asking for heavens, or rewards..and no promises of any heavens or rewards..JE SUKH deh taan tujeh aradhi...DUKH mein tjeh DHIYAAOON........if you give me SUKH..i adore you..worship you..if you give me DUKH..i worship you..adore you..remember you...same prayer...Humans take SUKH..as a new car...then a BMW car..then Mercedes car..then 2 jaguar cars..then five...a new bungalow...money..cash..jewels..beautiful wife..good helath....and DUKH...as the cars got stolen..the bungalow collapsed in an earthquake..the beautiful wife had aprevious lover and elft you...soem one hacked the banka ccount and its all gone..cancer struck and now blood pressure dropping..stroke on the way...IN GURMATT..SUKH is being NEAR to HIM..and DUKH is being farther from HIM...but Sikhs being humans..listen to themselves than the GURU....and so they pray...pray..and pray...for maya and worldy things that are clouds of smoke...

So where does ardaas fit into that? We should pray before starting and new task per SRM... For what? The task will eventuate however it will eventuate regardless.

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Each Sunday at Gurdwara the ardaas goes for quite a while as Gyani ji reads lots of peoples names, with words like chardi Kala and kaam, krodh, lob, moh aunkar (I don't know how to spell the last one). I can't understand Punjabi much yet but I can only imagine this part of the ardaas is asking for chardi Kala for those people and for them to overcome vices.

It is easy to see how asking for material things doesn't fit in Sikhi... What about asking for tolerance, for help understanding Gurbani... Is that worth doing?

I was speaking with a sardar a few weeks ago and he said to me that anything is possible if you get enough Sikhs doing true ardaas for it, it is stronger with more people. Can't say I agree but happy to hear thoughts...

Bhenji,

Its funny as I have had much the same debate with my mother this morning, I informed her I was at the shop, and she replied, well make sure you pray to god and do matha tek in your head so that you have a good day. I replied that I would never do that, giving much the same reasoning that you already have. Mum, I said, god is the truth, what is any point in asking him for things he already knows I need. My mother thought for a while, and then said, do you follow the truth, I replied that I tried to, my mother then said, then pray that you have the courage, wisdom and inner strength to follow and live by the truth, so you can be in tune with what is expected of you.
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However another way of looking at is, there was a study I read about, where a scientist wanted to know about sixth sense. The best way to reveal sixth sense to yourself is to watch somebody, after a while they will look at you, people have a sixth sense about being watched. She rigged up some monitors to a dozen people, and then watched them with cameras, each subject, according to sensors, realised that a camera was watching them, even though they could not see it. When a colleague tried to recreate this, the sensors did not pick up anything, after a while they both decided to do the experiment again, at the same time, and same results.

I am aware of the power of mind, given what the mind can do once it has submitted to the creator must be potentially huge!

The results were dependent on who was doing the experiment, the theory is that the first scientist in some way willed the people to realise that they were being watched, through the power of thought

If enough small lights join up, who knows what could happen!
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However I think what such a group would be praying for would have to be pure and good and Gur given

Gyaniji, you have the order extremely wrong, as any manmukh fule know it goes like this

its the Jaguar first, then the BMW, then the Mercedes, no self respecting Manmukh would buy 5 jaguars, five mercedes yes, but not jaguars, they are for people that love driving for the sake of driving, unreliable, costly, passionate, whereas mercedes are more about unpassionate, reliable, stable values, it is the ultimate car that you cannot stand driving, but it makes the ultimate statement.

Ishan Ji..the ardass is..Santaan ke karaj AAP KHOLOYAH....AAP kaam karavan aiyah Raam !! who are we to commence any tasks...even the westerners know..Man PROPOSES..God disposes..in Gurmatt its ALL HIS WILL..we just do whats got to be done.period. Man chooses to go EAST..BUT HE takes you to the WEST !!!

Intercessory Prayer & Waheguru's Will.

Sat Siri Akaal, friends.

In doing my morning prayers I keep seeing lines in Japji & elsewhere about God's pre-ordained will and that He determines all things that happen, also that we must accept these things as divinely commanded. Does this mean then that it is wrong to pray for others? Let's say if a person is ill with cancer or needs surgery, or if someone needs a job soon, is it to be considered trying to change the mind and will of Waheguru? I even feel the need to pray for my cat who is diabetic! Can we at least hope for answers to prayer for others, if it is appropriate to do so? I know that a lot of the "miracle-making" seen among televised & sensationalized ministers is a bunch of hooey and showmanship for money. Is it wrong then to ask of God himself to give graces and healing to those who need it; or better to ask for the strength to accept His will without
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Sat SIri Akaal. This is an eternal question. Prayers are how people connect to God in their hearts. It is not really about trying to change destiny or Waheguru's mind. Rather, heartfelt prayers on behalf of another serve that person's soul and spirit and give them the grace and strength to accomplish what they are doing. But prayer has also created miracles, because Waheguru in his wisdom creates situations that involve many people at once. So a very sick person who receives many prayers from those who love her may get well even if death is written all over her face! The people who prayed for that one are blessed because they served through prayer and hope.
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The Lord is merciful, so prayer can change the path of one's life. There have actually been studies done recently on the effects of prayer. And in 1956, a study was conducted at the University of Redlands (California) about the powerful effect of prayer. So it can serve, believe me. What is important for the ones praying is DON'T be attached to results. Don't be attached to getting what YOU pray for. Sometimes I find it is best to pray for one's highest truth,and let Waheguru figure the rest out. Sometimes I pray that someone be healed and realize that even if the person dies, they received healing in their SPIRIT. Waheguru does not always give us exactly what we pray for, and sometimes He does in such a way that we don't realize we got it! But don't stop praying. Pray and then TURN IT OVER to Waheguru.

Guru ang sang,
-DKK

source:http://www.sikhmatrimonials.com/Sikh...5!OpenDocument

Can prayer change things or destiny?

Those who offer prayers sincerely, know the efficacy and value of prayer. Other people think that prayer may give consolation and peace to man but cannot affect physical events, because the universe is governed by law. If fire burns today, it will also burn tomorrow, in spite of the prayer. Life is regular and smooth because of these unchanging laws. Though saints and mystics may possess great powers. What we regard as a miracle may really only be the "power of prayer" or the "working of a spiritual law". Sincere prayer is a supplication made to God generally without any personal motive. God knows of all the desires and sincerity of the individual. It is up to Him, to accept or reject a request made to Him.
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Certain basic laws are interacted on by other laws. Airplanes fly, contrary to the laws of gravity, but in turn they are governed by the laws of aerodynamics.

Prayer may help in a psychological way, e.g. people who are made ill by fear or tension while the effect is physical the cause may be mental. In such a case prayer may also heal in the same way as medicine, but by removing the mental cause.

According to Sikhism, prayer can change man's mind. Just as dirt is washed away by soap, in the same way man's evil thoughts may be washed away by prayer and meditation. Sinners have turned into saints through the power of prayer. The example of Sajjan, the thug is well-known. Bhai Gurdas has cited the case of Queen Tara Lochan. Her lost sandals were restored to her by prayer.
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Guru Arjan emphasizes the role of prayer:

"The praising of His Name is the highest of all practices.
It has uplifted many a human soul.
It slakes the desire of restless mind.
It imparts, an all-seeing vision."
(A.G., p.263)

Prayer is not mere autosuggestion. At its best, it is concentrating on God and His qualities. God is goodness, truth, patience, peace, and love. When a man offers a prayer, God enters into his life and gives His qualities to the devotee. With such qualities and power, He can mould things. Others may regard such events as just coincidences, but people who understand recognize them as the effect of prayer: "More things are wrought by prayer than this world ever dreams of."

source: "Introduction to Sikhism" - author: Dr. Gobind Singh Mansukhani

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Suggested reading:

"The Miracle of Ardaas"
By: Sant Baba Surain Singh Ji & Saint Scholar Naranjan Singh Ji ( Shromani Kathakar)
Publisher: Mighty Minds Publishing Pte Ltd, Singapore

Ishna ji great topic and inquiry. Just some thoughts.

I recognize that there are two views of how things happen.

One is causal, like you light fire to dry grass, it burns. We get to see so much in every day life that we start believing it to be all given to a high degree say 95%+. An extension of the same is that when things happen and there is no explanation, the general fall back is it is all deterministic except we have not uncovered how’s and why’s? So it forms a belief system in oneself.

• Such a person with this understanding may pray but its generic value will be minimal at a personal level whether they pray within or without.
• Such a person may pray for someone in a group or otherwise without a person’s/group’s/entity’s involvement, the effect may still be limited.

The other view, in Sikhism, there is the Gurbani view starting from Mool Mantar and carried forward as a common thread. Let us revisit the mool mantar,

The area to focus on is the underlying timelessness and vastness of creator and associated creation. So in this creation; you, me or any person is not going to know all. Included in that is how the thoughts impact chemistry and biology in life. The life of human beings, animals, etc.

Let us look at it little further in humans. The thoughts of happiness create a chemical response and associated physical sensations that we observe perhaps some of. There is a whole vastness of activity within this complex that we personally do not have the knowledge of or experience in observing at micro level. This activity continues day and night perhaps much like,

Let us now recognize how the flock moves in nuancing ways. Could we internally be much different. What is flowing inside? Is it affected by our conscious and unconscious thoughts. Of course it is. Is prayer at a personal level a collection of thoughts? Absolutely. So such actions have consequences known or unknown but consequences. Do we know all the positives and negatives, absolutely not.

For me a prayer is much internal thought. Reinforcing the truths in Gurbani and guidance thereof. Can it have a positive effect, quite likely. Can I prove it, no.

When we pray collectively with words uttered and in unison, does it have effects, absolutely. Can we quantify those all the time, no. Knowing the infinity of unknown, could some effects be dramatically positive, quite possible. Would some or most of the times the effects will be unobservable, quite likely.

So praying in Sikhism generally directs towards much of the unknown. Not with a promise or prize, but simply to show how much is happening that we do not know. Persistence of praying through the ages perhaps is a collective wisdom of humanity that it has shown positive effects. Hence it has prevailed from way way long ago and throughout way way different lands and peoples. It is no proof and it is no holy grail, just how it may be!

Sorry I ramble sometimes and posts are long.

Sat Sri Akal.

PS: Many people may think that somehow they can cut a deal with the creator. They donate say $5 in donation while bowing and praying, and there prayer may include to request a lottery win, etc. There is a saying , " you can fool some of the people some of the times, but you cannot fool all the people all the time". So the creator has known the math of converting $5 into say $1 million, a Mercedes, a House, etc. So people need to rise up and don't treat creator like a fool! No offence.

There are many wonderful answers here. All I can add is that prayer works, so there must be some reason why it works.

I'm reminded of a Buddhist story I read once.

A child was born and his parents hired an astrologer to make charts and foretell his future. The child would grow to be a rich and successful man. This astrologer was well known for his accuracy, so the child grew up certain that the events would come to pass just as they had been predicted. The child said to himself, "why study in school? Why apply for jobs? Why live a good life? No matter what I do, I am destined to be rich and successful."
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Many years later the child, grown up now, happened to meet the astrologer. He had lived a hard life, and was neither rich nor successful. He angrily complained to the astrologer that the predictions had been wrong.

The astrologer said, "my predictions were correct at the time I made them. If you had stayed on the path you were on, you would have been rich and successful. But because you believed it was pre-destined and you became complacent, you changed the future."