Questions from non-Sikhs to Sikhs

curious seeker · #1 (**permalink**) 08-Mar-2010, 13:21 PM

Connected thread http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/new-to...tml#post122538

Hello and Blessings to ALL

It has occurred to me that there must be quite a few persons in this board, that might have the same problems that I am having understanding Sikhi terminology and words and just plain Punjabi terms.

You see I, and probably many others here, do not know Punjabi. I, for example, did not know one word of Punjabi, well I knew Guru, a few weeks ago. So here is my dilemma. from what I can understand the religion is GREAT, the Doctrine is deep and soul touching in ways that I have never experienced, the practices seem just as beautiful and faith and commitment reinforcing. BUT as strive to fully grasp what the religion through its scripture and community is saying, I am always running into words that I do not understand in Punjabi and this is very confusing and in fact distracting.

So I have decided to ask for help. Actually I am about ready to SHOUT an SOS AND MAYDAY For even the most simple meanings scape me too often . Therefore I seek people with incredible patience, to answer questions of Sikh terminology and the meaning of Punjabi expressions, to some one who is at the level of 3 or 4 year old, even though he actually is 62.

So I will post questions and perhaps some one will graciously answer them and then I will be able to actually read and understand passages in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that I find puzzling, because I do not know the meaning Punjabi word in the passage. Or I will post some questions on common terms that I still do not quite get. Let me start:
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/new-to-sikhism/29471-questions-from-non-sikhs-to-sikhs.html

What is the difference between Bani, Kirtan and Shaba? According to one glossary Bani is the words of the Gurus. Shabad is the religious hymns contained in Sikh scriptures and Kirtan is the musical rendering of Sikh gurbani ( which also make Kirtan into a hymn as well) However, others call both Shabad and Gurbani the word of God or of Gurus, some call the Gurbani hymns as well. Could some one tell me what each means, by themselves?

I finally deciphered what fateh means so now I think that Gurfateh is, Victory is for the Guru, or the Guru is Victorious? Ji is dear? Khalsa is both the pure, the Saint Soldiers, and the community of the pure or the congregation of the pure? Panth means the Sikh Community? And the Gurdwara congregation is called ... ?
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=29471

Well this is just a beginning, and if others are also in the same predicament with being almost totally ignorant of Punjabi, PLEASE do ask questions as well
I thank all my Sikhi friends before hand, because I know that their heart is of gold and they will answer my questions!

May we all learn and walk the Path of Wahe Guru's Hukam !

Curious

Narayanjot Kaur · #2 (**permalink**) 08-Mar-2010, 19:12 PM

curious seekerji

I know that this is problematic because we have discussed it before.

Everything depends on context of use. One thing that is going to complicate matters is that the meanings of shabad and bani change according to the context in which they are used.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=29471

This is unavoidable in any language. Meaning comes from context. I can see that you have been consulting glossaries, making that suggestion moot in your case.

So to start this conversation, think of words that envelop other words, whose meanings overlap.

"A Shabad" in it specific context of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj refers to hymns or passages in the Guru Granth. The Guru Granth being a collection of shabads.

However "the Shabad" refers to all the spiritual wisdom contained with the Guru Granth.

On a more spiritual level "the Shabad" or "the Shabad Guru" is the complete message of Akaal Purakh revealed through His Grace to Guru Nanak and our other Gurus.

The Sri Guru Granth Sahib is now the Guru through which the Shabad Guru is revealed to us.

"Bani" in its more specific and literal sense refers to "word" and as Gurbani it refers to the Guru's word.

Gurbani - Definition of Gurbani - Guru's Word

So the Bani of the Guru is found, yes, in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. And in that sense Gurbani and Shabad Guru are the same thing.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=29471

In the large, the more mystical sense, Shabad Guru is something more abstract, and the source for the particular shabads.

Now the link that I posted above you will find some very helpful insights into Sikhism that are clear cut -- but in some cases they are too clear cut.

curious seeker · #3 (**permalink**) 10-Mar-2010, 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narayanjot Kaur

curious seekerji

I know that this is problematic because we have discussed it before.

Everything depends on context of use. One thing that is going to complicate matters is that the meanings of shabad and bani change according to the context in which they are used.

This is unavoidable in any language. Meaning comes from context. I can see that you have been consulting glossaries, making that suggestion moot in your case.

So to start this conversation, think of words that envelop other words, whose meanings overlap.

"A Shabad" in it specific context of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj refers to hymns or passages in the Guru Granth. The Guru Granth being a collection of shabads.

However "the Shabad" refers to all the spiritual wisdom contained with the Guru Granth.

On a more spiritual level "the Shabad" or "the Shabad Guru" is the complete message of Akaal Purakh revealed through His Grace to Guru Nanak and our other Gurus.

The Sri Guru Granth Sahib is now the Guru through which the Shabad Guru is revealed to us.

"Bani" in its more specific and literal sense refers to "word" and as Gurbani it refers to the Guru's word.

Gurbani - Definition of Gurbani - Guru's Word

So the Bani of the Guru is found, yes, in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. And in that sense Gurbani and Shabad Guru are the same thing.

In the large, the more mystical sense, Shabad Guru is something more abstract, and the source for the particular shabads.

Now the link that I posted above you will find some very helpful insights into Sikhism that are clear cut -- but in some cases they are too clear cut.

Ushta Narayanjot

I do realize, that there are deeper meanings, but first one must dominate the 'clear´more self eminent meanings, before one can even hope top delve into the deeper ones. Its like learning a language., for example English, one does not start with Shakespeare, one starts with John is a boy, Mary is a girl Neither one does start learning math by trying to do calculus, one learns to addition and the multiplication tables first.

I truly thank you for your kindness and patience and, of course, for this link.

Blessings,
Curious

Narayanjot Kaur · #4 (**permalink**) 10-Mar-2010, 05:10 AM

curious seeker ji

I actually must disagree with you -- but we can do that without enmity. In Sikhism, there are many instances where the simple answer is grossly misleading.

Let me give you an example from just a quick scan of some comments on a facebook page.

A quotation from Sri Guru Granth Sahib included the word "isanaan" (pronounced isha-naan)

This literally means "a purifying bath" and in translation that is the ordinary meaning. To some this word suggests that early in the morning, every morning, a Sikh should make it a spiritual practice to take a purifying bath or shower, as a kind of religious ritual. Yet we know from the Sikh Rehat Maryada that ritual practices are not encouraged and in some cases forbidden. Another meaning of isnaan is that we should purify our minds, through simran and prayers called Nitnem. The idea being to achieve a state of inner poise so that we can face the day with equanimity.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=29471

Those are two different understandings for a single word - isanaan - and you were asking about word meanings originally.

Now someone is likely to come online and say - Narayanjot Kaur ji you are wrong. A Sikh must take a purifying bath each morning! But then the discussion that ensues will be about the layers of comprehension that are very real. Another person will say - Narayanjot Kaur ji you are wrong. The purifying bath does not come from simran and prayer but through living in the Guru's word through thought and deed.

Then one can go directly to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and find that in context ishanaan rarely refers to taking a "bath." And there is even one example where the word "simran" is used to mean purifying bath.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji :Page :SearchGurbani.com
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=29471

There is no easy way out. It is possible to go to a web site that gives a very basic understanding of what a word means, and the given meaning can be seriously off -base. I think it is very important to have good educational resources, but clearly one must make the main resource the Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Read it each day, struggle with its layer upon layer of meaning, communicate with others about it.

curious seeker · #5 (**permalink**) 10-Mar-2010, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narayanjot Kaur

curious seeker ji

I actually must disagree with you -- but we can do that without enmity. In Sikhism, there are many instances where the simple answer is grossly misleading.

Let me give you an example from just a quick scan of some comments on a facebook page.

A quotation from Sri Guru Granth Sahib included the word "isanaan" (pronounced isha-naan)

This literally means "a purifying bath" and in translation that is the ordinary meaning. To some this word suggests that early in the morning, every morning, a Sikh should make it a spiritual practice to take a purifying bath or shower, as a kind of religious ritual. Yet we know from the Sikh Rehat Maryada that ritual practices are not encouraged and in some cases forbidden. Another meaning of isnaan is that we should purify our minds, through simran and prayers called Nitnem. The idea being to achieve a state of inner poise so that we can face the day with equanimity.

Those are two different understandings for a single word - isanaan - and you were asking about word meanings originally.

Now someone is likely to come online and say - Narayanjot Kaur ji you are wrong. A Sikh must take a purifying bath each morning! But then the discussion that ensues will be about the layers of comprehension that are very real. Another person will say - Narayanjot Kaur ji you are wrong. The purifying bath does not come from simran and prayer but through living in the Guru's word through thought and deed.

Then one can go directly to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and find that in context ishanaan rarely refers to taking a "bath." And there is even one example where the word "simran" is used to mean purifying bath.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji :Page :SearchGurbani.com

There is no easy way out. It is possible to go to a web site that gives a very basic understanding of what a word means, and the given meaning can be seriously off -base. I think it is very important to have good educational resources, but clearly one must make the main resource the Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Read it each day, struggle with its layer upon layer of meaning, communicate with others about it.

Ushta Narayanjot

OOH I think we are not disagreeing at all. In fact not only the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji should be studied for layered meanings to arrive at the one that fits best a particular context, and maybe the overall context as well, but all scriptures ought to be studied that way.

But that is not what w are talking about! If i do not understand Punjabo hoiw can i understand constant re¡¡M unexplained , mentions of terms in Punjabi: As I struggle to grasp the meaning of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, I have to stop every few sentences to find out what a word MIGHT mean.

In other words the way things face a Non-Punjabi speaker who wants to learn about the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, if you are not even allowed to get at some kind of meaning to these Punjab words you have almost to stop reading the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and learn Gurmukki and Punjabi! Now learning this is very useful, BUT at a point when you are just looking to grasp at something a little more deeper than the basics, is a little demanding, to put it mildly.

Have Sikhs, at least, considered an expanded translation on the format of the Amplified Bible where several of the main meanings of important terms are given in () in the text?

Blessings
Curious

Tejwant Singh · #6 (**permalink**) 10-Mar-2010, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narayanjot Kaur

curious seeker ji

I actually must disagree with you -- but we can do that without enmity. In Sikhism, there are many instances where the simple answer is grossly misleading.

Let me give you an example from just a quick scan of some comments on a facebook page.

A quotation from Sri Guru Granth Sahib included the word "isanaan" (pronounced isha-naan)

This literally means "a purifying bath" and in translation that is the ordinary meaning. To some this word suggests that early in the morning, every morning, a Sikh should make it a spiritual practice to take a purifying bath or shower, as a kind of religious ritual. Yet we know from the Sikh Rehat Maryada that ritual practices are not encouraged and in some cases forbidden. Another meaning of isnaan is that we should purify our minds, through simran and prayers called Nitnem. The idea being to achieve a state of inner poise so that we can face the day with equanimity.

Those are two different understandings for a single word - isanaan - and you were asking about word meanings originally.

Now someone is likely to come online and say - Narayanjot Kaur ji you are wrong. A Sikh must take a purifying bath each morning! But then the discussion that ensues will be about the layers of comprehension that are very real. Another person will say - Narayanjot Kaur ji you are wrong. The purifying bath does not come from simran and prayer but through living in the Guru's word through thought and deed.

Then one can go directly to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and find that in context ishanaan rarely refers to taking a "bath." And there is even one example where the word "simran" is used to mean purifying bath.

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji :Page :SearchGurbani.com

There is no easy way out. It is possible to go to a web site that gives a very basic understanding of what a word means, and the given meaning can be seriously off -base. I think it is very important to have good educational resources, but clearly one must make the main resource the Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Read it each day, struggle with its layer upon layer of meaning, communicate with others about it.

Narayanjot ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for explaining the above in such a nitid manner. No one could have done it better.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

Narayanjot Kaur · #7 (**permalink**) 10-Mar-2010, 10:22 AM

curious seeker ji

You are asking about the meanings of words.

In other words the way things face a Non-Punjabi speaker who wants to learn about the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, if you are not even allowed to get at some kind of meaning to these Punjab words you have almost to stop reading the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and learn Gurmukki and Punjabi! Now learning this is very useful, BUT at a point when you are just looking to grasp at something a little more deeper than the basics, is a little demanding, to put it mildly. (by curious seeker ji)
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=29471

You have your work cut out for you! Here is what I ended up doing. I bought a dictionary "Dictionary of Guru Granth Sahib by Professor Surindar Singh Kohli. This was just the beginning of another chapter of having to learn ' yet even more.' The book is very good. Professor limits himself to defining words in the Guru Granth. But as you would suspect, one word can mean 8 things. Does that help -- NOT!

This problem was complicated by three other issues.

The dictionary is organized by transliterated words with Gurmukhi in parentheses. There are at least 4 commonly used transliteration systems, and you have to know how they work. Or to put it another way, how a word you read in one system maps on to the system Professor is using.

For example, there is no section for "f" because in Punjabi "f" is a "ph." Therefore, one has to search for a word beginning with "f/ph" in the "ph" section. LOL I said to myself. The dictionary skips from "e" to "g!" And that is a simple problem.

The second issue. How do you know when a word like "karama" means "deed" and when it means "gift" or "fortune?" And what do you do when a forum member says, Not "fortune" because it means "blessing." Are we splitting hairs on that one? Or when "sharf" means "letter" "syllable" "word" or "countenance?"

To complicate matters, Karama as a noun means deed or blessing, but Karama as an adjective means "liberal." And they are not even the same word. The middle "a" for the adjective is pronounced; in the noun the middle "a" is muffled.

The third issue. How do you know what a word means when Professor says, "Gamdo" from "Gada?" LOL - you have to be a detective.

It is what American educators call a "spiral curriculum." Learning keeps spiraling from one level to the next. There is a good book by Charles Shackle called, "The Sacred Language of the Sikhs." It takes about a year to get through phonics, vocabulary and grammar. I am not there yet.

Bmandur · #8 (**permalink**) 10-Mar-2010, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narayanjot Kaur

curious seeker ji

You are asking about the meanings of words.

In other words the way things face a Non-Punjabi speaker who wants to learn about the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, if you are not even allowed to get at some kind of meaning to these Punjab words you have almost to stop reading the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and learn Gurmukki and Punjabi! Now learning this is very useful, BUT at a point when you are just looking to grasp at something a little more deeper than the basics, is a little demanding, to put it mildly. (by curious seeker ji)

You have your work cut out for you! Here is what I ended up doing. I bought a dictionary "Dictionary of Guru Granth Sahib by Professor Surindar Singh Kohli. This was just the beginning of another chapter of having to learn ' yet even more.' The book is very good. Professor limits himself to defining words in the Guru Granth. But as you would suspect, one word can mean 8 things. Does that help -- NOT!

This problem was complicated by three other issues.

The dictionary is organized by transliterated words with Gurmukhi in parentheses. There are at least 4 commonly used transliteration systems, and you have to know how they work. Or to put it another way, how a word you read in one system maps on to the system Professor is using.

For example, there is no section for "f" because in Punjabi "f" is a "ph" so one has to search for the sound in the "ph" section. LOL I said to myself. The dictionary skips from "e" to "g!" And that is a simple problem.

The second issue. How do you know when a word like "karama" means "deed" and when it means "gift" or "fortune?" And what do you do when a forum member says, Not "fortune" because it means "blessing." Are we splitting hairs on that one? Or when "sharf" means "letter" "syllable" "word" or "countenance?"

To complicate matters, Karama as a noun means deed or blessing, but Karama as an adjective means "liberal." And they are not even the same word. The middle "a" for the adjective is pronounced; in the noun the middle "a" is muffled.

The third issue. How do you know what a word means when Professor says, "Gamdo" from "Gada?" LOL - you have to be a detective.

It is what American educators call a "spiral curriculum." Learning keeps spiraling from one level to the next. There is a good book by Charles Shackle called, "The Sacred Language of the Sikhs." It takes about a year to get through phonics, vocabulary and grammar. I am not there yet.

Gurfateh Narayanjot Kaur JI:

You have explained each word very well.
eyko sbdu vIcwrIAY Avr iqAwgY Aws
eaek sabadh beechaareeai jaa thoo thaa kiaa hor ||1|| rehaao ||
I dwell upon the One Word of the Shabad. You are mine-what else do I need?

gurmuKw ky muK aujly gur sbdI bIcwir
guramukhaa kae mukh oujalae gur sabadhee beechaar ||
The faces of the Gurmukhs are radiant and bright; they reflect on the Word of the Guru's Shabad.

gurbwxI iesu jg mih cwnxu krim vsY min Awey ]1]
gurabaanee eis jag mehi chaanan karam vasai man aaeae ||1||
Gurbani is the Light to illuminate this world; by His Grace, it comes to abide within the mind. ||1||

I hope this will help to the seaker to Understand
Gurfateh

Rupinder.Singh · #9 (**permalink**) 10-Mar-2010, 12:41 PM

Gurfateh...

Born in a punjabi speaking family, I had to learn English from school. and I learnt it from "A=apple, B=Boy, c=cat"
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=29471

but today I know "A=Awesome, Aware, Agree,....."

I have also come to know that "Being cool" does not mean being at a freezing temperature.

I would have not come to know all these amazing things in english without knowing its alphabets, practising english in my day to day speaking, interacting with english speaking individuals, and exposure to english media.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=29471

...add more or remove some......This is the drill for learning any language.

Gurmukhi being the major language of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, any one willing to learn it will have to go through this process.

So please don't get discouraged if anyone finds more than one meaning to same word. It is with every language.

In the end, it all depends upon how we actually reflect on the meaning of these words. Right reflections come with experience, faith and love for learning.

Take my case..being punjabi speaking..I myself most of the times misunderstand the right context of words in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji... but then SPN and other online resources help me to answer my curious misinterpretations.

So start from Alphabets of Gurmukhi...start from simple meanings...once started...never loose heart.....you will eventually get there....then you would know..what is what and when....

Just to add:
Gurudwara Congregation is called "SANGAT" in Gurmukhi/punjabi.

My inspiration for learning any language:
"Translation can never reflect authors' thought, it reflects translator's thoughts in most of the cases"
"Anything in form of hymns, can be reflected in countless forms in its own language, translating it into other language restricts it to only one form"

I hope this helps..

Rupinder Singh

Archived_member13 · #10 (**permalink**) 10-Mar-2010, 13:54 PM

SAT SRI AKAL,

Well Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is written in GURMUKHI language meaning spoken from the mouth of the
Guru but let me clarify one thing that even god is mentioned as GURU in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji so don't
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=29471
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=29471
get confused at all because Guru and Waheguru has a close relation in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in Japji Sahib Waheguru mentions Guru Nanak meaning that Waheguru has given his status to Guru Nanak so it becomes clear that Waheguru ( God) send Guru Nanak Sahib as SATGURU and Waheguru was much impressed with his devotion and which leads to
Jyot means supreme soul in the form of human body not as god as hindus claims but as
Devotee of Waheguru as Guru Nanak Sahib came in this world. I hope it clarify some
doubts Sikhs and Non-Sikhs. If some has any question feel free to ask.

REGARDS

GURVEEN SINGH