247fb New book on the origins of Islam
Sign Up |  Live StatsLive Stats    Articles 37,320| Comments 177,170| Members 19,408, Newest ssarabjeet61| Online 571
Home Contact
 (Forgotten?): 
    A portrait by Bhagat Singh of Sikhiart.com
    For best SPN experience, use Firefox Internet Browser!


                                                                   Your Banner Here!    




Sikh Philosophy Network » Sikh Philosophy Network » Interfaith Dialogues » Islam » New book on the origins of Islam

New book on the origins of Islam

Our Donation Goal : Why Donate? : Donate Today! : Donate Anonymously (ਗੁਪਤ) : Our Family of Supporters
Goal this month: 500 USD, Received: 115 USD (23%)
Please Donate...
     
Related Topics...
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Origins of Kara Prasad findingmyway Sikh Sikhi Sikhism 15 23-Feb-2012 19:41 PM
The Origins and Ownership of Yoga spnadmin Hinduism 4 07-Dec-2010 03:55 AM
Hindu Origins of Astrology - Any Relevance to Sikhi? Narayanjot Kaur History of Sikhism 17 24-Oct-2007 05:47 AM
Book On Ashaari's Views On Islam Hadhari Deviating, Says Dr Abdullah (Bernama) Sikh News Reporter Islam 0 02-Jul-2005 01:20 AM


Tags
book, islam, origins
Reply Post New Topic In This Forum Stay Connected to Sikhism, Click Here to Register Now!
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 20-Apr-2012, 01:04 AM
Seeker9's Avatar Seeker9 Seeker9 is offline
Cleverness is not wisdom
 
Enrolled: May 3rd, 2010
Location: UK
Age: 42
Posts: 632
Seeker9 will become famous soon enoughSeeker9 will become famous soon enoughSeeker9 will become famous soon enoughSeeker9 will become famous soon enoughSeeker9 will become famous soon enoughSeeker9 will become famous soon enoughSeeker9 will become famous soon enoughSeeker9 will become famous soon enough
   
Adherent: A Learner
Liked 917 Times in 416 Posts
    Nationality: United Kingdom
New book on the origins of Islam

  Donate Today!   Email to Friend  Tell a Friend   Show Printable Version  Print   Contact sikhphilosophy.net Administraion for any Suggestions, Ideas, Feedback.  Feedback  

Register to Remove Advertisements
Dear all

I note there have been several prosletysing-type threads recently about the Qu'ran

In the interests of balance, I wanted to share the following book review with you:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/b...nd-review.html

One key thing to note is the theory that Islam as a religion was not established as such until more than 200 years AFTER the Prophet's divine revelations in the cave. This would then raise questions as to the authenticity of the Scriptures and the extent to which they have been influenced by ordinary humans

To me that makes sense as there are some questionable passages which are more likely to have been written by selfish ordinary humans as opposed to being divinely transcribed

I also wanted to raise this thread to encourage some genuine theological discussion instead of the irrelevant (in my opinion) threads we have been subjected to recently
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/islam/38385-new-book-on-the-origins-islam.html
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38385

Defenders of the faith welcome to respond but if you choose to dislike my post, please remember to state why in either factual terms or theological terms so I will be able to respond

Thanks for reading


Got anything to share on This Topic? Why not share your immediate thoughts/reaction with us! Login Now! or Sign Up Today! to share your views... Gurfateh!
__________________
Happiness is not something ready made. It comes from your own actions.(Dalai Lama)

Last edited by Seeker9; 20-Apr-2012 at 01:24 AM. Reason: Changed "humans" to "ordinary humans"
Reply With Quote
The following members appreciate Seeker9 Ji for the above message.
Sponsored Links
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 20-Apr-2012, 01:07 AM
Seeker9's Avatar Seeker9 Seeker9 is offline
Cleverness is not wisdom
 
Enrolled: May 3rd, 2010
Location: UK
Age: 42
Posts: 632
Seeker9 will become famous soon enoughSeeker9 will become famous soon enoughSeeker9 will become famous soon enoughSeeker9 will become famous soon enoughSeeker9 will become famous soon enoughSeeker9 will become famous soon enoughSeeker9 will become famous soon enoughSeeker9 will become famous soon enough
   
Adherent: A Learner
Liked 917 Times in 416 Posts
    Nationality: United Kingdom
Re: New book on the origins of Islam

Forgot to add I am posting this via my phone so will copy and paste entire review when I get home
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 20-Apr-2012, 03:05 AM
Seeker9's Avatar Seeker9 Seeker9 is offline
Cleverness is not wisdom
 
Enrolled: May 3rd, 2010
Location: UK
Age: 42
Posts: 632
Seeker9 will become famous soon enoughSeeker9 will become famous soon enoughSeeker9 will become famous soon enoughSeeker9 will become famous soon enoughSeeker9 will become famous soon enoughSeeker9 will become famous soon enoughSeeker9 will become famous soon enoughSeeker9 will become famous soon enough
   
Adherent: A Learner
Liked 917 Times in 416 Posts
    Nationality: United Kingdom
Re: New book on the origins of Islam

 
Re: New book on the origins of Islam
"To understand the origins of Islam,” writes Tom Holland, “and why it evolved in the way that it did, we must… explore the empires and religions of late antiquity”.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38385

In the Shadow of the Sword works very precisely to this brief. Beating a path from the height of the Persian Empire established in AD 224 to the rise of the Abbasid caliphate in 750, Holland’s new book traces the process by which the world of the first millennium came to be dominated by one God, three religions and an innumerable succession of emperors.

In a book that challenges most of the first principles of Islamic exceptionalism, Holland portrays the vast Arab empire that was amassed between the River Oxus and the Pyrenees during the seventh, eighth and ninth centuries as “the last, the climactic and the most enduring” in a series of religious and political superstates that came to dominate the world of the Mediterranean and Middle East following the chaotic collapse of the western Roman Empire.

Islam, Holland argues, was not born fully formed with the Prophet as he received God’s revelation in a cave in 610, or when he fled Mecca for Medina around 622. In fact, the religion took nearly two centuries to assume its present form: a strict monotheism supremely loyal to the memory and teachings of its founder, Mohammed, governed by the words of its sacred text, the Koran, and overseen by an alliance of zealous princes and powerful priests.

During those two centuries, Islam and the caliphs took on board almost everything that had been integral to the success of the other emerging faiths and empires of the age: Persian Zoroastrianism, the Christianity of the eastern Romans and Judaism, which lacked a territorial empire but endured by the potency of its teaching throughout Palestine, Arabia and beyond.

From these old models, the Arab conquerors who rode out of the desert to seize North Africa, most of the Iberian Peninsula, the Holy Land, the fertile crescent and virtually everything between the Aral and Arabian seas, gleaned the means by which they, too, could rule the world.

Theologically, this meant the potency of submission to a single God; the doctrinal power of a single, perfect messenger to whom God had revealed himself; the relentless persecution of deviant or cultish forms of religious belief; and, most importantly of all, the enduring reach of a sacred text.

Practically, it suggested other methods to control a wide and variegated people: a legal code in which believers held privileged status; the exultation of warriors who fought in the name of the Almighty; spectacular buildings raised to the glory of God; and the conscious mythologising of great cities as the central hubs of both political power and pilgrimage. (Jerusalem and Constantinople pre-empted Mecca, Medina and Baghdad.)

Countless other aspects of early Islamic power were also borrowed directly from the empires that preceded the caliphates. Whereas the Christian Roman Empire of Justinian had imposed heavy taxes on those who did not worship God, so the Arabs imposed a poll tax (known as the jizya) on Jews and Christians who fell under their rule. The jizya was ascribed to a decree of the Koran. But “the supreme theme of the age,” Holland writes, was “the raising of a new order upon the ruins of the old.”

Holland tells a complex story, dotted with names and places leagues beyond the realm of popular recognition. Yet he makes it unmistakably his own. He is one of the most distinctive prose stylists writing history today, and he drags his tale by the ears, conjuring the half-vanished past with such gusto that characters and places fairly bound from the page. The nuances of ancient theological debate are not glossed over; but they are placed into the context of smelly marketplaces, shimmering palaces and bloodstained battlefields.

Holland is writing, however, about a touchy subject. Among his arguments is that the prevailing notion of Mecca in the age of Mohammed is almost certainly not historically authentic, that our knowledge of the Prophet is uncertain, since nearly all of the information we have concerning his life derives from accounts written centuries after his death and that there were probably variations in early texts of the Koran.

Is this Satanic Verses territory? Holland quotes Salman Rushdie at the very beginning of the book, acknowledging, wryly, another British author who ventured onto the sticky wicket of Islam’s origin myths. But I should be surprised if Holland lands himself in trouble. In the Shadow of the Sword may reach provocative conclusions, but it is also a work of impressive sensitivity and scholarship.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38385

* Tom Holland is speaking about his book at the Telegraph Hay Festival.
Reply With Quote
The following members appreciate Seeker9 Ji for the above message.
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 20-Apr-2012, 03:32 AM
Seeker9's Avatar Seeker9 Seeker9 is offline
Cleverness is not wisdom
 
Enrolled: May 3rd, 2010
Location: UK
Age: 42
Posts: 632
Seeker9 will become famous soon enoughSeeker9 will become famous soon enoughSeeker9 will become famous soon enoughSeeker9 will become famous soon enoughSeeker9 will become famous soon enoughSeeker9 will become famous soon enoughSeeker9 will become famous soon enoughSeeker9 will become famous soon enough
   
Adherent: A Learner
Liked 917 Times in 416 Posts
    Nationality: United Kingdom
Re: New book on the origins of Islam

Dear all

There is a fascinating debate at the end of this article between the author and a muslim freelance journalist here:
http://www.newstatesman.com/religion...birth-religion
Reply With Quote
The following member appreciates Seeker9 Ji for the above message.
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 21-Apr-2012, 21:27 PM
Archived_member15's Avatar Archived_member15 Archived_member15 is offline
 
Enrolled: Feb 23rd, 2012
Location: United Kingdom
Age: 20
Posts: 391
Archived_member15 has a spectacular aura aboutArchived_member15 has a spectacular aura aboutArchived_member15 has a spectacular aura aboutArchived_member15 has a spectacular aura aboutArchived_member15 has a spectacular aura aboutArchived_member15 has a spectacular aura aboutArchived_member15 has a spectacular aura aboutArchived_member15 has a spectacular aura aboutArchived_member15 has a spectacular aura aboutArchived_member15 has a spectacular aura about
   
Adherent: Catholic
Liked 637 Times in 306 Posts
    Nationality: United Kingdom
Re: New book on the origins of Islam

This has actually been my understanding of Islamic history for quote a while.

There is a fascinating book on this subject called, "The Hidden Origins of Islam":
Amazon.com: The Hidden Origins of Islam: New Research Into Its Early History (9781591026341): Karl-Heinz Ohlig, Gerd-R Puin: Books Amazon.com: The Hidden Origins of Islam: New Research Into Its Early History (9781591026341): Karl-Heinz Ohlig, Gerd-R Puin: Books

Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38385
It demonstrates that Islam was not founded in the sixth century BUT IN THE EIGTH under the Abbassids.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38385

The Dome of Rock Mosque was actually a Church. It bears an inscription supposedly from the Qur'an about Jesus, denying his divinity and speaking of 'muhammad'. But 'muhammad' was a phrase ORIGINALLY APPLIED TO JESUS! We have coins from the Arab conquered Persia which bear depictions of Jesus and crosses with the word "muhammad" - that is, "The Praised One". Thus a famous mosque inscription may refer not to Muhammad but, astonishingly, to Jesus.

It has the conclusion that Islam actually began as an Arabian form of Christianity which did not believe that Jesus was Divine but purely human. Its sacred text was the Bible AND a Syriac commentary on the Bible with biblical quotations called the Ur-Qur'an - a lectionary.

Over time this text was doctored to become a Sacred Scripture in its own right called the Qur'an.

that Mecca did not actually exist at the time of Muhammad, in the location the Hadiths claim. There was no major trade route in that area, and we have no concrete evidence for things such as the Quarysh tribe, Muhammad's battles etc. Nada. Nothing. Mecca and the Kaaba were situated in Syria. This is confirmed by Byzantine historians of the fourth-sixth centuries such as Siculus Diodorus and Jacob of Edessa.

What this means, is that the Muhammad of the Hadiths might very well be a different person from the historical one. The Hadiths were written around 200-300 years after the death of Muhammad. The earliest biography of Ibn Ishaq was written 130 years after the prophet's death.

The earliest biographical material about Muhammad dates from at least 125 years after his reported death. Six decades passed before the Arabian conquerors—or the people they conquered—even mentioned Muhammad, the Qur’an, or Islam. Many scholars believe that the Qur’an was constructed from existing materials—including pre-Islamic Christian texts. Even Muslim scholars acknowledge that countless reports of Muhammad’s deeds were fabricated. The oldest records referring to a man named Muhammad bear little resemblance to the now-standard Islamic account of the life of the prophet.

While Judaism and Christianity have been subjected to searching historical criticism for more than two centuries, Islam has never received the same treatment on any significant scale

I can't say if its 100% legit but its an intriguing and increasingly well-documented theory.

Last edited by Archived_member15; 21-Apr-2012 at 21:34 PM.
Reply With Quote
The following members appreciate Archived_member15 Ji for the above message.
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 23-Apr-2012, 09:53 AM
Auzer's Avatar Auzer Auzer is offline
 
Enrolled: Feb 19th, 2012
Posts: 90
Auzer is on a distinguished roadAuzer is on a distinguished roadAuzer is on a distinguished road
   
Adherent: Islam
Liked 104 Times in 51 Posts
    Nationality: United States
Re: New book on the origins of Islam

Well there are several problems with skeptical speculations about Origins of Islam.

1- We have actual physical copies of Qur'anic manuscripts from as early as 7th-8th century. So this speculation that Qur'an was probably developed 2 centuries after Prophet's death fall on its face.

2*- We actually have independent testimonies , from 7th century, of different people , historians etc talking about Muhammad--A man in Arabia preaching a 'new' religion of its own. ( Guess what that religion was? A type of 'Christianity' ? It can't be. Only answer remains is Islam)

3- A non-Muslim chronicler , Thomas The Presbyter , talk about Muhammad in his writings of 634 C.E ... That is just 1.5 years after Prophet's death.. He also records the battle between Arabs and Romans in Palestine region and refer Arabs as "Arabs of Muhammad" .. This is the earliest mention of Muhammad by a non-Muslim , non-Arab historian.

4- Christian/non-Muslim chroniclers from the time era of Muhammad also mention Arab conquests and the spread of Islam and 'blame' "Muhammad" to have inspired the Arabs for their great conquests and 'imposing' of 'Muhammad's religion' on them ...

From all this , one thing can be established that there was a man in 7th century named Muhammad. He founded a religion in Arabia (Islam) and united all of Arabia under one banner. He was also a political leader and appointed military commanders for different expeditions and also fought in some battles... We now also know that Qur'an was written/dictated by him because we have physical manuscripts of Qur'an from 7th and early 8th century.

So 'origins' of Islam are historically well-established and authentic (unlike that of Christianity) ... BUT....the 'authenticity' of Hadiths is what scholars look at with skeptic view (and understandably so). I think that the topic should be about 'evolution of Islam' rather than 'origins of Islam' .....
Quote:
Six decades passed before the Arabian conquerors—or the people they conquered—even mentioned Muhammad,
See that is what I am talking about. Many people (not referring to you) talk about it without any knowledge of history. Muhammad was first mentioned by a non-muslim chronicle in 634 C.E (just after 1.5 years of Muhammad's death!) .....

Peace!
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 23-Apr-2012, 23:19 PM
Seeker9's Avatar Seeker9 Seeker9 is offline
Cleverness is not wisdom
 
Enrolled: May 3rd, 2010
Location: UK
Age: 42
Posts: 632
Seeker9 will become famous soon enoughSeeker9 will become famous soon enoughSeeker9 will become famous soon enoughSeeker9 will become famous soon enoughSeeker9 will become famous soon enoughSeeker9 will become famous soon enoughSeeker9 will become famous soon enoughSeeker9 will become famous soon enough
   
Adherent: A Learner
Liked 917 Times in 416 Posts
    Nationality: United Kingdom
Re: New book on the origins of Islam

Dear Auzer Ji
the thread is about the origins of islam and not the origins of the prophet
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38385
i am sudying for finals but will research this and come back to you with a more complete response
assuming the author and previous authors have researched the subject I suspect there will be counter views to some of your points
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 24-Apr-2012, 02:31 AM
Seeker9's Avatar Seeker9 Seeker9 is offline
Cleverness is not wisdom
 
Enrolled: May 3rd, 2010
Location: UK
Age: 42
Posts: 632
Seeker9 will become famous soon enoughSeeker9 will become famous soon enoughSeeker9 will become famous soon enoughSeeker9 will become famous soon enoughSeeker9 will become famous soon enoughSeeker9 will become famous soon enoughSeeker9 will become famous soon enoughSeeker9 will become famous soon enough
   
Adherent: A Learner
Liked 917 Times in 416 Posts
    Nationality: United Kingdom
Re: New book on the origins of Islam

Dear Auzer Ji

Some very quick responses which I will develop further in time:
Quote:
1- We have actual physical copies of Qur'anic manuscripts from as early as 7th-8th century. So this speculation that Qur'an was probably developed 2 centuries after Prophet's death fall on its face.
The article is not about the origins of the Qu'ran. It is about the origins of Islam as a religion. Yes, some codices go that far back but not the same complete finished Qu'ran you and I can read today

Quote:
2*- We actually have independent testimonies , from 7th century, of different people , historians etc talking about Muhammad--A man in Arabia preaching a 'new' religion of its own. ( Guess what that religion was? A type of 'Christianity' ? It can't be. Only answer remains is Islam)
List them please. Interesting that the Qu'ran itself only refers to Muhammed 4 times......

Quote:
3- A non-Muslim chronicler , Thomas The Presbyter , talk about Muhammad in his writings of 634 C.E ... That is just 1.5 years after Prophet's death.. He also records the battle between Arabs and Romans in Palestine region and refer Arabs as "Arabs of Muhammad" .. This is the earliest mention of Muhammad by a non-Muslim , non-Arab historian.

4- Christian/non-Muslim chroniclers from the time era of Muhammad also mention Arab conquests and the spread of Islam and 'blame' "Muhammad" to have inspired the Arabs for their great conquests and 'imposing' of 'Muhammad's religion' on them ...

From all this , one thing can be established that there was a man in 7th century named Muhammad. He founded a religion in Arabia (Islam) and united all of Arabia under one banner. He was also a political leader and appointed military commanders for different expeditions and also fought in some battles...
No one doubts the existence of such a historical figure and neither does the article/book. Question is whether the actual historic Muhammed and the Islamic one are the same....

Quote:
We now also know that Qur'an was written/dictated by him because we have physical manuscripts of Qur'an from 7th and early 8th century.


No we don't know. Both things are capable of standing alone. Muslims choose to make that direct link


Quote:
So 'origins' of Islam are historically well-established and authentic (unlike that of Christianity) ...


I disagree with both statements. I.e
I don't think the origins of Islam are that well established but there is a lot of archaeological evidence, and history to support a lot of the characters and events in the Bible. Feel free to start a separate thread on that if you like but let us stick to Islam on this thread please

Quote:
BUT....the 'authenticity' of Hadiths is what scholars look at with skeptic view (and understandably so). I think that the topic should be about 'evolution of Islam' rather than 'origins of Islam' .....


Agreed





Last edited by Seeker9; 24-Apr-2012 at 02:34 AM. Reason: Formatting
Reply With Quote
The following member appreciates Seeker9 Ji for the above message.
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 24-Apr-2012, 03:44 AM
Astroboy's Avatar Astroboy Astroboy is offline
ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
 
Enrolled: Jul 14th, 2007
Posts: 4,577
Astroboy is a jewel in the roughAstroboy is a jewel in the roughAstroboy is a jewel in the roughAstroboy is a jewel in the roughAstroboy is a jewel in the roughAstroboy is a jewel in the roughAstroboy is a jewel in the roughAstroboy is a jewel in the roughAstroboy is a jewel in the roughAstroboy is a jewel in the roughAstroboy is a jewel in the roughAstroboy is a jewel in the rough
   
Adherent: Sikhi
Blog Entries: 1
Liked 1,548 Times in 905 Posts
    Nationality: Malaysia
Re: New book on the origins of Islam

  Donate Today!  
This predates Islam and it is about Moses. See the pictures.
The real Mount Sinai is not in Egypt.
Bible Texts Locate the Real Mount Sinai
http://www.discoverynews.us/DISCOVER...ai/sinai2.html
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38385
Reply With Quote
The following member appreciates Astroboy Ji for the above message.
   Click Here to Donate Now!

Support Us!
Become a Promoter!
Gurfateh ji, you can become a SPN Promoter by Donating as little as $10 each month. With limited resources & high operational costs, your donations make it possible for us to deliver a quality website and spread the teachings of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, to serve & uplift humanity. Every contribution counts. Donate Generously. Gurfateh!
ReplyPost New Topic In This Forum Stay Connected to Sikhism, Click Here to Register Now!

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Tools Search
Search:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

» Active Discussions
Dalai Lama’s Lessons for...
Today 00:11 AM
0 Replies, 1 Views
30 Day Amrit Vela -...
Yesterday 23:49 PM
45 Replies, 543 Views
How does Sikhi help you...
Yesterday 22:59 PM
19 Replies, 795 Views
What Do You Think of...
Yesterday 22:56 PM
39 Replies, 689 Views
Losing My Religion: Why...
Yesterday 22:47 PM
6 Replies, 146 Views
How Religions Change...
Yesterday 19:33 PM
0 Replies, 44 Views
Do you believe in...
Yesterday 12:00 PM
184 Replies, 3,878 Views
Thought of the Moment!
Yesterday 10:07 AM
109 Replies, 5,135 Views
Amrit
Yesterday 09:17 AM
5 Replies, 361 Views
What I believe Hukam to...
Yesterday 03:15 AM
13 Replies, 172 Views
Should SPN Keep the...
Yesterday 02:02 AM
19 Replies, 609 Views
Rozana Reports (ਪੰਜਾਬੀ...
Yesterday 01:46 AM
304 Replies, 7,492 Views
Sikh Spokesman (ਪੰਜਾਬੀ...
Yesterday 01:18 AM
173 Replies, 4,410 Views
Student Compares Toilet...
Yesterday 01:05 AM
1 Replies, 98 Views
Map shows world's 'most...
20-May-2013 18:58 PM
16 Replies, 290 Views
» Books You Should Read...
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
All times are GMT +6.5. The time now is 00:51 AM.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2013, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2 Copyright © 2004-12, All Rights Reserved. Sikh Philosophy Network


Page generated in 0.63500 seconds with 32 queries
0