Worst Places in the World to be a Woman

Ishna ji

I can think of two reasons why it is important to know the history of events and how the banis were composed.

1. To be prepared, with research, to critique opinions, found on the Internet and in some academic circles, that challenge the authenticity of the banis themselves. Even challenge the authenticity of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, with the plan of putting forward a Hindutva agenda/to destroy the identity of Sikhs. One famed example of that is the contemporary pressure to remove the banee of the Bhats and the Bhagats from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. This is not the first time.

There is a systematic attack as we speak on Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji coming from political quarters and it is powered by money and relentless need for control.

2. To understand that Guru Nanak's true message was moral and ethical as well as spiritual. Some believe that the fruition of Sikhi only came with Guru Gobind's Singh and his "warrior Sikh." This is a complete myth, not based on evidence. The myth forgets that sant/sipahi is not a divisible as a concept. From the days of Guru Nanak Sikhs were to be both sant and sipahi or spiritual warriors. Before the martyrdom of Guru Arjan Dev their was little to no reason for Sikhs to take to the sword. After his martyrdom political realities required it. And knowing history gets us to the understanding that even when wielding the sword, Gurus from Hargobind to Gobind Singh did so reluctantly, and only with much consideration.

Guru Nanak Devji, Guru Amardasji the other Gurus were flesh and blood human beings who took an active interest in the world as it was in their times, to include all of the political and cultural outrages committed against humanity. They undertook pilgrimages, including Guru Teg Bahadur (perhaps the most mystical of Gurus) to raise the spiritual consciousness of the people, and to give them a moral and ethical center coming from dharma. They worked with their hands and hearts. Their "mystical organs" were not detached from the real world. Guru Harkrishan ji gave his life serving small pox victims. Guru Amar Das ji organized the Sikhs into geographical areas and appointed ministers, including women, to attend to their social and spiritual needs, Guru Har Rai is remembered as the "green" Guru. I could go on. Too many believe we wash our bad karma with seva, forgetting that "seva" for sikhs from the times of the Gurus was spirituality in action. Washing our karma with seva is selfishness. Living out the history of Sikhi through seva is the message of Gurbani in action.

Knowing the history Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji out of the ether of Brahminical "other worldliness." How could history take away the spirituality of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? The bani for me mean so much more when I realize that Guru Nanak was not staring at his navel but was actually imprisoned with the captives of Babar, and suffered with them, when he could have taken his leave as a holy man. He did not do that and expressed righteous anger and deep compassion for the victims, which came from a place in dharma. Taken before Babar his spiritual message freed prisoners, corrected injustice.

Knowing how the shabads fit into a story of Guru Nanak's travels does change how we read them.... a real person is speaking from real experience. imho History makes the banis more spiritual not less given that the Gurus were faced with remarkable challenges in the face of great odds.

 
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I don't know it kind of hints at rape, but overall Guru Sahib is talking about what people do in their lives (run after worldly things) and in the end they suffer.

Doota No Furmaya, Lae Chale Pat Gawaye


This can also talk about messenger, which is the real meaning of Doota. I guess it talks about Messenger of Death. When you die, all you have earned is left here, true respect to earn is for those who are accepted by Guru. Those who have not done Simran of Waheguru or wished for His Darshan, don't get to meet Waheguru once the life is done. They are taken for their next birth of the cycle.

The point of Sindoor in the full Shabad (http://waheguru.com/sgg.php?page=417) is to point to those who live like someone's bride, but are badly attached to wealth and beauty. If we don't have real devotion for Waheguru, we are going to suffer our fate.

For some, it is pre-ordained that they shall sit and cry out in pain.


This pre-ordained is not something written by God, it is probably written as our past actions in previous lives. It could be that even in last 10 lives I was a big liar, and even in this life I don't value Truth. So I continue to suffer. Lying and suffering is not something written by God, but due to rules of Universe, it has become my behavorial tendency.

It has become men's tendency to show down women. Similarly women also give in to suffering. Worse they keep quiet when their own daughters are not treated well, for they have come to love their sons more. Being done over generations, I am afraid it is almost as if being written to our DNA. Only Gurbani can purify us.

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa
Waheguru ji ki Fateh

ishna ji

Would you please say a little more about this I have read Ang 417 over two or three times and am having trouble understanding the connection between the shabad and your saying "its very difficult for me to de-personalise Waheguru when I read some of the following tuks." The passages you cite are depictions of the fate of women in Lahore (but also describe the fate of widows in general in Brhaminical India then and even now. Guru Nanak is giving an eye-witness account, as well as pondering the material fate and spiritual condition of those who cling to material position and wealth. In these passages, Guru Nanak is also setting the stage for later passages in the raag where he puts serious moral questions forward to those who wield power and abuse wealth.)

Guru Nanak actually asks the moral question for you, for us:

ਜੇ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਦੇ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਜੇ ਭਾਵੈ ਦੇਇ ਸਜਾਇ ॥੪॥
Je ṯis bẖāvai ḏe vadi▫ā▫ī je bẖāvai ḏe▫e sajā▫e. ||4||
If it please Him, He grants greatness, If it please Him He awards punishment.

ਅਗੋ ਦੇ ਜੇ ਚੇਤੀਐ ਤਾਂ ਕਾਇਤੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਸਜਾਇ ॥
Ago ḏe je cẖeṯī▫ai ṯāʼn kā▫iṯ milai sajā▫e.
If the mortal meditates, on the Lord before hand, then why should he receive punishment.

Then later Guru Nanak answers the question
ਜੋ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਸੋ ਥੀਐ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਿਆ ਮਾਨੁਖ ॥੭॥੧੧॥ जो तिसु भावै सो थीऐ नानक किआ मानुख ॥७॥११॥
Jo ṯis bẖāvai so thī▫ai Nānak ki▫ā mānukẖ. ||7||11||
Whatever pleases Him, that alone does happen, O Nanak! What is man?

Farther on Ang 417 he repeats this idea:
ਇਹੁ ਜਗੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਤੂ ਗੋਸਾਈ ॥
Ih jag ṯerā ṯū gosā▫ī.
This world is Thine and Thou art the Lord of Universe.

ਏਕ ਘੜੀ ਮਹਿ ਥਾਪਿ ਉਥਾਪੇ ਜਰੁ ਵੰਡਿ ਦੇਵੈ ਭਾਂਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Ėk gẖaṛī mėh thāp uthāpe jar vand ḏevai bẖāʼn▫ī. ||1|| rahā▫o.
In a moment Thou establishest and disestablishest. Thou distributest wealth as Thou pleasest. Pause.

Are you asking why Waheguru would visit suffering on the women of Lahore, permitting them to be dishonored by soldiers and carried away? (The shabad is part of Guru Nanak's longer hymn about the destruction of Lahore by Babar) If you are, then your question is very like the classic question:

Why does God (in any vision of god) will catastrophes and tragedies to occur and devastate creation, which he created? Why would he allow rape to occur? Why would he allow all the atrocities visited upon women to occur?

The follow-up is usually: What kind of God is that who would permit harm to otherwise harmless beings?

Another: Why does the hukam of Waheguru permit powerful or evil people prey on the powerless?

Or: When the harmless and innocent suffer, does that happen because of past karmas in past lives?



I am not sure if you are asking one of these questions, or asking about something and I just have not understood. Or perhaps my misunderstanding comes from a different sense of "personal" god.

Admin note: For more about what are terms the Babarvani hymns see this link http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/histor...r-1525-ad.html

In his first invasion, Babar came as far as Peshawar. The following year he crossed the Indus and, conquering Sialkot without resistance, marched on Saidpur (now Eminabad, 15 km southeast of Gujranwala in Pakistan) which suffered the worst fury of the invading host. The town was taken by assault, the garrison put to the sword and the inhabitants carried into captivity. During his next invasion in 1524, Babar ransacked Lahore. His final invasion was launched during the winter of 1525-26 and he became master of Delhi after his Victory at Panipat on 21 April 1526.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/interfaith-dialogues/35701-worst-places-in-the-world-woman.html
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=35701

Guru Nanak was an eye-witness to the havoc created during these invasions. Janam Sakhis mention that he himself was taken captive at Saidpur. A little of his, outside of Babarwani hymns, indicates that he may have been present in Lahore when the city was given up to plunder. In six pithy words this line conveys, "For a pahar and a quarter, i.e. for nearly four hours, the city of Lahore remained subject to death and fury" (GG,1412).

Also this link Adi Granth as a Source of Sikh History http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-g...tory-sikh.html

SPNadmin ji,

Thank you for your input. I've been brazen and in fact asked questions like those you've cited (and ones being asked in the parallel thread occuring at the moment about the terrible state of the world in general).

I was making reference to Findingmyway's post #24. In her post she explains how "God is not a person who is sitting up there pulling the strings of puppets to make is act." The two of us are in agreement that Waheguru is better understood as a "force" rather than a "personality" but I slip sometimes. Also Gyani ji's post #21 is relevant.

It may just be the translation and my deficit in understanding Gurbani at this stage, but when my beginner's brain reads tuks such as the ones I quoted, I struggle to maintain the idea that God is a force and not a puppet-master.

As I said before, I'm pretty sure I've got the right kind of understanding on the inside, but it's difficult for me express my understanding and see how my understanding fits with real-world examples. Like, testing a hypothesis you're sure is correct but not knowing much about real science!

On the flip side it's easy to fall back into a mindset of "well it's it's all God's will and he's pleased with it then why the heck should I try to connect with It whose happy for crap to occur?". Obviously that's not the right understanding and I'm trying to educate myself using the forum as a sounding-board.

Ish

ishna ji

Good point! Thank you for responding and explaining in more detail.

I wonder how they missed South Africa in their survey:
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=35701
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...e-south-africa

Most of these kind of surveys are not for countries like India.India is more like Europe than a country ,here culture ,status of women etc changes from one state to another .Ask a model who is working in Mumbai and travels late at night and have live in relationship whether India is such a bad her answer will be no.Ask a poor woman of UP or Bihar her answer may be India is worst for women

I may be wrong, but I have come to terms with this by accepting these things not as gods will, but gods truth. If there is no air in my tyres, and that causes an accident, that is not gods will, that is not anyone's will, the sad fact is that the truth is, there was no air in the tyre, and I ignored it.

If a young child gets raped in the congo, God is not sitting up there watching, powerless, its just the truth, and the consequences of the truth, you could maybe trace this rape back to an event that could have been avoided, but once the air starts to escape from the tyre, and without any vigilance, then an accident is merely a consequence of events left unheeded.

Apologies for the car references today

there is just the truth, with all the power the truth has, not sure if I am right, but that's how I deal with it