Dharamrai or Dharamraj

Ashoke · #1 (**permalink**) 19-Jun-2012, 21:41 PM

Dharamraj or Dharamrai is mentioned in gurubani many times.
What is this entity?
Does this not contradict Sikh concept of single all pervading Akal Purukh who is fearless and without enmity and the concept of mukti and reincarnation because there is this additional very powerful power who decides what happens to whom.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hinduism/38688-dharamrai-or-dharamraj.html
Is this a hiccup left over and incorporated in Sikh scriptures from other Indian philosophies ? What do our gurus mean by this because they mention this in gurubani with their devine wisdom.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38688
I would greatly appreciate comments from our very learned subscribers.

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #2 (**permalink**) 20-Jun-2012, 05:33 AM

Dharamraaj is the Inner Consciousness that dwells WITHIN..the tiny voice that whispers..DONT STEAL..this is not YOURS....etc etc...the voice that cautions..warns...and slowly quietens down as we continue along our own ways..and keep ignoring GURUMATT and indulge in MANMATT.

Luckysingh · #3 (**permalink**) 20-Jun-2012, 07:35 AM

I believed that references made for dharamrai and dharamraaj were interchangeable and both terms refer to the one judge of our deeds.

I think 'judge' would be the best word to describe this.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38688
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38688
I do think that this 'judge' is similar to the creation within us that determines the outcomes from our actions.

I also think that we should remember that these are 'mythological references' in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji, and if we try to distinguish too much between 'dharamraaj and dharamrai' or 'parvati and parabhati' then we are actually moving away from the true essence of the gurbani message.

This is something that I personally find that I have to be careful with at times especially when I am trying to translate and interpret word for word.

Waheguru
Lucky Singh

Taranjeet singh · #4 (**permalink**) 20-Jun-2012, 10:18 AM

According to the Hindu scriptures, the souls of men after death receive rewards and punishments according to their sins and virtues, and hence it is believed that good and bad deeds of men are not destroyed. God has appointed Dharamraj /Dharmrai to judge the deeds of souls.

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Chitragupta

References from Granth

There are scriptural references that we have also. Per my little understanding, Guru saheb have employed these mythological figures for instilling fear in the mind of seekers so that righteousness is inculcated.
Other related name is Chitra-Gupt also. These are not synonyms.

The references has appeared thus:

Function of Dharamraaj

 God having created animals recorded their names, and appointed Dharmraj to judge their acts.
At His own court the real truth is adjudged; He separateth and removeth those who are attached to mammon.
There the false find no place: they go to hell with blackened faces.
They who are imbued with Thy name win; the deceivers lose.
God recorded names and appointed Dharmraj to record acts. [ang 220-

Seat of Dharamraaj

 In fear[1] the winds and breezes ever blow
In fear flow hundreds of thousands of rivers
In fear fire performeth its forced labour;
In fear the earth is pressed by its burden
In fear Indar moveth headlong: in fear sitteth Dharmraj at God's gate;
In fear is the sun, in fear the moon; they travel millions of miles without end;
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38688
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38688
in fear are the Sidhs, the Budhas, the demigods, and the Naths; in fear are the stars and the firmament;
In fear are wrestlers, very mighty men and divine heroes;
In fear cargoes of men come and go.
God hath destined fear for every one;[2] Nanak, the Formless One, the True, is alone without fear.[ang 222-
[1. The fear of God is, of course, meant.
2. Literally--God hath written the destiny of fear on tile heads of all.]

Bhul Chuk Mauf

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #5 (**permalink**) 20-Jun-2012, 11:46 AM

BHAEI...has been wrongly translated as "FEAR"...
There is absolutely no place for "FEAR" in Gurbani..we need not FEAR HIM....MITTH BOLRRA ja Har sajan Mera..main smbhal thakee ji..KADEH NA BOLLEH KAURRA...My Master is Most SWEET..I have tried in every way (to provoke him/anger him by my actions)..BUT HE remains as SWEET as ever..

This BHAEI that Gurbani speaks of is actually the LAWS...the LAWS of Gravity...Physics...mathematics..etc etc etc which GOVERN the CREATION...and the LAWS THAT THE PLANETS FOLLOW..THE SUNS FOLLOW, THE MOONS THE STARS THE GALAXIES follow... the Rivers that flow also follow the Laws of Motion..of water always flowing towards lower depths...Apples that fall towards earth due to GRAVITY...etc etc etc..THIS is NOT "FEAR"...this is LAWS of CREATION...
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38688
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38688

FEAR exists in other religions..whose God thunders in anger..who destroys entire cities not even sparing women and children or animals..who sends floods and plagues and terrible sufferings....THERE is NOT even a SINGLE TINY MENTION of such a Vengeful fearful god in the entire 1429 pages of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji....so where do w e get the notion of "fear" ?? when GURBANI in fact speaks VOLUMES about the LOVE and LOVE and LOVE only the Creator has for us his creation...

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #6 (**permalink**) 20-Jun-2012, 11:47 AM

HE ALONE is ABOVE these LAWS. He alone is NIRBHAU ( the normal fears men have..of death, failure..etc etc)

Kanwaljit Singh · #7 (**permalink**) 23-Jun-2012, 00:13 AM

Chitra Gupta are the thoughts, the ones which we 'think' and the ones which we are 'not aware' we are thinking. I.e. the secrets that we keep from others and the secrets which we keep from ourself!

Dharam Rai points to the fact that you will be 'judged' when you die! What happens to you will be the sum of all your actions! Do you die in hate, love, anger, sadness, guilt, disappointments, doubts etc. Or do you die free from the 3 forms of Maya and merge with Waheguru!
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38688

Remember in school we are told about atoms, then electrons and now that there are even particles within electron.

This only shows that education uses the current 'context' of the people to reveal further concepts. Same with Gurbani. People have since long have had concept of a 'Dharam Rai' and 'Chitra Gupta'. Gurbani has used those references to reveal how Universe works. And I think it is wonderful!