Define Guru, Saint and Bhagat

gurvinder_janu · #1 (**permalink**) 27-Jun-2007, 20:01 PM

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Guru Piari Saadh Sangat Ji

With due respect to all Sikh Gurus and to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji

Gurbani of all sikh Gurus is entered in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and Bani of various Bhagats are Saints is also written there. Does it means all the Bhagats and saints are Gurus?
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hard-talk/15959-define-guru-saint-and-bhagat.html

What is the difference between Guru, Bhagat and Saint as Bani has come to all from the one Waheguru(God, Noor). Is the Bani of Guru has come from somewhere else than Bani of Saints and Bhagats? If not so, then all Gurus, Bhagats and saints should be called by same name.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=15959

I wish to know the answer to my curiousity, and i hope too that i will get the same from this site.

Please forgive me

Sardara123 · #2 (**permalink**) 30-Jan-2008, 18:04 PM

Gurvinder Janu Ji,
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=15959

With due respect,

I read all your daily Hukamnaama posts everyday. The answer to all your questions, you have already quoted in all those posts through Gurbani many many times. I suggest please read all of your own posts, you will find the answer. Gurbani has the answer to every possible question human mind can create-if we carefully read and listen to Gurbani.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=15959

Bhul Chuk maaf karna ji.

Astroboy · #3 (**permalink**) 30-Jan-2008, 18:16 PM

This post was extracted by moderators as It is interesting. Gurvinder Ji posted this article before taking up the sewa of posting the Daily Hukamnama.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=15959
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=15959

It is interesting to discuss the differences between Guru, Sant and Bhagat.

Guru Arjan wrote in Shabad Hazare

Gur darshan sant pyare jio - written in a letter to Guru Ram Das Ji.

The word Gur and sant both appear in the same line. I therefore invite all sangat to follow up discussion like scholars would.

Sardara123 · #4 (**permalink**) 30-Jan-2008, 18:31 PM

Namjap Ji,

It appeared under recent posts, I didn't know SPN extract old posts like this and confuses readers. I am sorry.

I still suggest to whoever extracted the post- READ ALL HUKAMNAANAS posted by Gurvinder Janu Ji. Answer is right there. It is Gurbani, I hope everybody will enjoy reading it.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=15959
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=15959

bhul chuk maaf karna ji.

ONCE AGAIN: NAAM JAP JI SORRY FOR THE INTERRUPTION.

Astroboy · #5 (**permalink**) 30-Jan-2008, 20:08 PM

Sardara Ji,
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=15959

No need to apologise.

You could have knocked me down with a feather.

Narayanjot Kaur · #6 (**permalink**) 30-Jan-2008, 20:10 PM

ਸੋ ਸਾਧੂ ਬੈਰਾਗੀ ਸੋਈ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਸਾਏ ॥
So sāḏẖū bairāgī so*ī hirḏai nām vasā*ė.
That person is a Holy Saadhu, and a renouncer of the world, whose heart is filled with the Naam.

ਅੰਤਰਿ ਲਾਗਿ ਨ ਤਾਮਸੁ ਮੂਲੇ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਆਪੁ ਗਵਾਏ ॥
Anṯar lāg na ṯāmas mūlė vicẖahu āp gavā*ė.
His inner being is not touched by anger or dark energies at all; he has lost his selfishness and conceit.

ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ਸਤਗੁਰੂ ਦਿਖਾਲਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਰਸੁ ਪੀਆ ਅਘਾਏ ॥੩॥
Nām niḏẖān saṯgurū ḏikẖāli*ā har ras pī*ā agẖā*ė. ||3||
The True Guru has revealed to him the Treasure of the Naam, the Name of the Lord; he drinks in the Sublime Essence of the Lord, and is satisfied. ||3||

ਜਿਨਿ ਕਿਨੈ ਪਾਇਆ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤੀ ਪੂਰੈ ਭਾਗਿ ਬੈਰਾਗਿ ॥
Jin kinai pā*i*ā sāḏẖsangṯī pūrai bẖāg bairāg.
Whoever has found it, has done so in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy. Through perfect good fortune, such balanced detachment is attained.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=15959

ਮਨਮੁਖ ਫਿਰਹਿ ਨ ਜਾਣਹਿ ਸਤਗੁਰੁ ਹਉਮੈ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਲਾਗਿ ॥
Manmukẖ fireh na jāṇeh saṯgur ha*umai anḏar lāg.
The self-willed manmukhs wander around lost, but they do not know the True Guru. They are inwardly attached to egotism.

ਨਾਨਕ ਸਬਦਿ ਰਤੇ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਰੰਗਾਏ ਬਿਨੁ ਭੈ ਕੇਹੀ ਲਾਗਿ ॥੪॥੮॥੪੧॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=15959
Nānak sabaḏ raṯė har nām rangā*ė bin bẖai kėhī lāg. ||4||8||41||
O Nanak, those who are attuned to the Shabad are dyed in the Color of the Lord's Name. Without the Fear of God, how can they retain this Color? ||4||8||41||

Under review, the question:

What is the difference between Guru, Bhagat and Saint as Bani has come to all from the one Waheguru(God, Noor). Is the Bani of Guru has come from somewhere else than Bani of Saints and Bhagats? If not so, then all Gurus, Bhagats and saints should be called by same name.

Aristotelian logic will help munn figure it out.

All Gurus are Sant.
Bhagat Naamdev is Sant.

Does it follow then that Naamdev is Guru?

Yes or No? The answer is No.

The problem is the fallacy of the undistributed middle. We would not say All peas are green, all beans are green, therefore all beans are peas.

Astroboy · #7 (**permalink**) 30-Jan-2008, 20:22 PM

Aad ji,

Many things come to mind. If I were to apply logical reasoning then I would conclude that neither Namdev's character/mind nor personality/physical is Guru. Physically he was only known as Namdev and somethimes Bhagat Namdev Ji.

There are two sides of understanding. One is his overall Bani (writings) and the other his writings which appear only in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

I remember Randip Singh commenting when asked - on whether Namdev's bani (alone) which appears in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji can be considered as Guru. His opinion was that Guru is the complete compilation of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I need to ask his full views on the partial bani as Guru.

Narayanjot Kaur · #8 (**permalink**) 30-Jan-2008, 20:38 PM

NamJap ji
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=15959

Naamdev's Bani is Guru. Randip ji is speaking to a different syllogism.

Gurbani is Guru.
The Bani of Naamdev is within Gurbani.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=15959
Therefore,
The Bani of Naamdev is Guru.

This conclusion is True and logical because the Bani of Naamdev is included within Gurbani.

Go back again to the earlier syllogism. Can Naamdev himself be Guru?

We can however see this. Not only is Gurbani True, it is also perfectly logical. Comforting thought.

Sikh80 · #9 (**permalink**) 30-Jan-2008, 23:02 PM

I shall try to give my answer in non conventional manner.The heirarchy is as follows:
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=15959
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=15959
Seeker
Saint.
Sadhu
Bhagat
Brahmgyani

Kindly do not ask the source.I am referring to my notes.Hence cannot quote source.

It is true that bani contains the bani of Gurus and saints/bhagats etc. However, it may be recalled that the sikhs holy scripture was compiled for the sikhs and the dasam Guru ji gave it a final shape by recording the bani of (10th nanak ji.]The recorded bani includes the Bani Of Nanak-1 thru nanak-10[ not all nanak's bani is present] Hence it is clear that the Bani of nanaks[ guru sahib ] was the main source and purpose of the compilation of the Granth sahib by Guru Maharaj Arjan dev ji. This it is a recorded bani of guru sahibs for a specific purpse. The Bani is thus of 10 nanaks having a common spirit. Hence we refer the bani of gurus only. Not all bhagats/saints shared the same spritual platform.even if they did it was immaterial so far as your question is concerned.

To make the granth sahib of contemporary interets the banis of saints/bhagats etc was also included. However, these bhagats /saints did not share the common spirit like 10 Nanaks; hence the Bani of Guru sahib is in abundance without profusion and one should not have any confusion though we have many some without reason.

It is for this reason that other bhagats/saints are not given the status of Guru sahib.
hope i am clear.
Regards to all.
e&oe.