Translations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj: The Difficult and the Contradictory

Narayanjot Kaur · #1 (**permalink**) 12-Apr-2009, 05:12 AM

The thread has been started to provide a place for comparisons of various translations into English of Shabads in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj. There are times when approved translations of the Granth do not agree at the level of understanding; and consequently the translation into English will be different. Yet, at other times, approved translations do seem to agree at the level of understanding, but the translation into English can be dramatically different.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/24574-translations-sri-guru-granth-sahib-maharaj.html
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24574

Discussions must be accompanied by two or more translations of a verse accompanied by the entire shabad in which the verse appears. You can then add your own understanding, and/or your critique of a particular translation.

The thread should not be a place where an individual's translation is the only thing offered, as the purpose of the thread is to compare and contrast established translations approved by the SGPC.

Approved translations are by the following scholars of Sikhism:

1. Professor Sahib Singh (English translation of Japji Sahib only)
2. Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa (author of the broad translation, also called the Khalsa Consensus)
3. Dr. Gurbachan Singh Talib (this translaiton in 5 volumes is an English-only translation, and it is accompanied by extensive commentary and footnotes)
4. Bhai Sardar Manmohan Singh
5. Dr. Gopal Singh

For your convenience the following link to SriGranth has been given below

Sri Granth

vsgrewal48895 · #2 (**permalink**) 12-Apr-2009, 07:28 AM

Dear TeJi,

I posted the following hymn in the post of “Meat in Sikhism” under the notion that to consume any kind of meat should be a matter of personal preference on the basis of taste etc, as it is foolhardy to bring religion into this issue. I referred to the following hymn of Bhagat Kabir after referring to Guru Nanak’s hymn in Siri Raag that eating mind altering substances is no good for Sikhs. Since meat eating does not affect the mind and further clarified by Guru Nanak in Raag Malar does not prohibit eating meat except on individual preferences. Here are various translations of the hymn by different authors.

ਕਬੀਰਭਾਂਗਮਾਛੁਲੀ ਸੁਰਾ ਪਾਨਿ ਜੋ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ਖਾਂਹਿ ॥ ਤੀਰਥ ਬਰਤ ਨੇਮਕੀਏ ਤੇ ਸਭੈ ਰਸਾਤਲਿ ਜਾਂਹਿ ॥
Kabir Bhaang Maachulee Sura Paan Jo Jo Praanee Khaaneh, Teerath Barat Naym Keeay Tay Sabhay Rasaatal Jaaneh.

Translation by Macauliffe in The Sikh Religion-Vol-6, Page, 314-published 1909

Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24574
Kabir, the mortals who eat bhang, fish (Banares Pundits used to eat fish at the time of Kabir) and drink wine, shall go to hell, whatever pilgramages, fastings, and daily devotion they may perform.

Translation by Gurbachan Singh Talib, Vol 4, Page, 2751

Saith Kabir:Creatures that consume hemp, fish or liquor, Even though visiting holy spots, keeping fasts and vows, All to nethermost hell must go.

Translation by Manmohan Singh Vol 8, 1969, Page, 4545
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24574

Kabir, who so ever of the mortals partake of meat (Translated from Bhang), fish, and wine; What ever pilgramages, fasting and daily rites they may perform, they all go to hell.

Translation by Gurbachan Singh Makin, Vol 4, Page, 1376/2759

O Kabir! Thev persons, who partake of wine, meat,(Extra) and fish (or any viscious thing) waste all their efforts visiting holy place of pilgramage, keeping fasts and other religious formalities as nothing fruitful could be gained by them.

Translation by Sant Singh Khalsa.

Kabir, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell.-----Bhagat Kabir Slokes # 233, AGGS, Page, 1377-2 & 3
Two authors added the word meat, one in place of fish and the other just an additional word.

Cordially,
Virinder

pk70 · #3 (**permalink**) 12-Apr-2009, 09:40 AM

aad Bhain Jio
Thanks for starting the thread.

All who have translated or done interpretation of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, deserve our thanks for putting so much hard work; however, holding them as the final and right benchmark is folly. My personal experience to understand Gurbani is not from them but to ponder over whole Shabadas and try to dig down what actually is being said. Always keep outer influences away. Surprisingly different or clearer meanings come up by contemplating on it seriously instead of just reading and translating the words used in there. Let me give you just example how contemplated one and how the one translated by looking on the words give different satisfaction.
Here it is

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿਬੂਝੈਤਤੁਬੀਚਾਰਾ॥
Gurmukẖ būjẖai ṯaṯ bīcẖārā.

Guru willed comes to understand the essence of reality; and reflects on It.-----Guru Nanak, Raag Majh, AGGS, Page, 109-17
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24574
Doesn’t it mean first Guru –willed understand it without reflecting on it? So what is missing in above translation, let’s see at contemplated translation
Guru willed comes to understand the essence of reality by reflecting on it.

Lets look at another one
ਸਚੁਵਾਪਾਰੁਕਰਹੁਵਾਪਾਰੀ॥ਦਰਗਹਨਿਬਹੈਖੇਪਤੁਮਾਰੀ॥

Sacẖ vāpār karahu vāpārī. Ḏargeh nibhai kẖėp ṯumārī.

This is the only merchandise of Truth, worth trading in life so that your business will be considered useful and fruitful in the Court of Akal Purkh.-----Guru Arjan, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 293-6
Think about the extra baggage of words translator has used above, seems he has problem to contemplate and find the Message
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24574
Now look at the following interpretation by contemplating.
“Ho Trader ( Oh mortal!), trade in the eternal Truth-Almighty( means contemplate on Him), this is the trade that will be accepted in His court
The more you search for the message; more the same words will help you to find the Guru Message.
I am here just for suggestion; since I started understanding Gurbani like this, my dependency on translators has gone.
Thanks.

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #4 (**permalink**) 12-Apr-2009, 10:18 AM

The fareedkoti Teeka and Mahan Kosh are available at Sant Isher Singh Ji Maharaj, Sant Kishan Singh Ji Maharaj - www.ik13.com. but the FT is in difficult Punajbi/Hindi mix. Mahan kosh is authoritative source of roots of words/extra info.

Tejwant Singh · #5 (**permalink**) 12-Apr-2009, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pk70

aad Bhain Jio
Thanks for starting the thread.

All who have translated or done interpretation of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, deserve our thanks for putting so much hard work; however, holding them as the final and right benchmark is folly. My personal experience to understand Gurbani is not from them but to ponder over whole Shabadas and try to dig down what actually is being said. Always keep outer influences away. Surprisingly different or clearer meanings come up by contemplating on it seriously instead of just reading and translating the words used in there. Let me give you just example how contemplated one and how the one translated by looking on the words give different satisfaction.
Here it is

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿਬੂਝੈਤਤੁਬੀਚਾਰਾ॥
Gurmukẖ būjẖai ṯaṯ bīcẖārā.

Guru willed comes to understand the essence of reality; and reflects on It.-----Guru Nanak, Raag Majh, AGGS, Page, 109-17
Doesn’t it mean first Guru –willed understand it without reflecting on it? So what is missing in above translation, let’s see at contemplated translation
Guru willed comes to understand the essence of reality by reflecting on it.

Lets look at another one
ਸਚੁਵਾਪਾਰੁਕਰਹੁਵਾਪਾਰੀ॥ਦਰਗਹਨਿਬਹੈਖੇਪਤੁਮਾਰੀ॥

Sacẖ vāpār karahu vāpārī. Ḏargeh nibhai kẖėp ṯumārī.

This is the only merchandise of Truth, worth trading in life so that your business will be considered useful and fruitful in the Court of Akal Purkh.-----Guru Arjan, Raag Gauri, AGGS, Page, 293-6
Think about the extra baggage of words translator has used above, seems he has problem to contemplate and find the Message
Now look at the following interpretation by contemplating.
“Ho Trader ( Oh mortal!), trade in the eternal Truth-Almighty( means contemplate on Him), this is the trade that will be accepted in His court
The more you search for the message; more the same words will help you to find the Guru Message.
I am here just for suggestion; since I started understanding Gurbani like this, my dependency on translators has gone.
Thanks.

Pk 70 ji,

Guru Fateh.

You are right about the translators as also mentioned in the other thread started by Virinder ji. I woudl request Antonia ji to combine these 2 threads.

Whose translations are you using above and I wanted to know if they differ from other translations from different scholars in your opinion. If they do then in what way?

It will be interesting to do the comparative study using different translators' understanding of the same Shabad.

Secondly can you elaborate what you mean by ( means contemplate on Him), in lay man's terms and how one can relate to it in everyday life? This phrase is often used by many scholars.

Thanks
Tejwant Singh

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #6 (**permalink**) 12-Apr-2009, 12:33 PM

Tejwant Ji,

You correctly observe..TRADING...Contemplating ON...are used by most scholars..
To me..in lay mans terms...TRADING IN..means USING....deep study...and contemplate..means FOLLOW and APPLY...in our Daily Life.

Example is HONESTY. Honesty is a trait of HIM...and iF we "trade" in honesty..we apply HONESTY in everything we do in our daily LIFE...that would be "contemplating on HIM (honesty)...constantly KEEPING HONESTY IN MIND..no white lies even...the more totally honest..the deeper the contemplation..

HE is SAT..the TRUTH....TRADING in SAT would be The Whole Truth and nothing but the TRUTH...
Applying that would be NIROL TRUTH IN ALL and each action we take in our daily Lives...contemplating on HIM (TRUTH SAT ) means keeping that in MIND at all times..even sleeping and dont LIE evn in a dream..
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24574

He is the GREATEST SHARER...waand chhaknna...Trade in SHARING...keep it in Mind always...
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24574

IN SHORT..its HIM..Keep HIM in Mind always..TRY and BE LIKE HIM....small things..one at a time..until our entire life BECOMES HIM....ONLY HIM....

2.Contempalting is not "idle thinking...day dreaming...about...... HIM. NO. Its got to be PRACTICAL application in ordinary everyday LIFE.

my humble thoughts...

Tejwant Singh · #7 (**permalink**) 12-Apr-2009, 22:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gyani Jarnail Singh

Tejwant Ji,

You correctly observe..TRADING...Contemplating ON...are used by most scholars..
To me..in lay mans terms...TRADING IN..means USING....deep study...and contemplate..means FOLLOW and APPLY...in our Daily Life.

Example is HONESTY. Honesty is a trait of HIM...and iF we "trade" in honesty..we apply HONESTY in everything we do in our daily LIFE...that would be "contemplating on HIM (honesty)...constantly KEEPING HONESTY IN MIND..no white lies even...the more totally honest..the deeper the contemplation..

HE is SAT..the TRUTH....TRADING in SAT would be The Whole Truth and nothing but the TRUTH...
Applying that would be NIROL TRUTH IN ALL and each action we take in our daily Lives...contemplating on HIM (TRUTH SAT ) means keeping that in MIND at all times..even sleeping and dont LIE evn in a dream..

He is the GREATEST SHARER...waand chhaknna...Trade in SHARING...keep it in Mind always...

IN SHORT..its HIM..Keep HIM in Mind always..TRY and BE LIKE HIM....small things..one at a time..until our entire life BECOMES HIM....ONLY HIM....

2.Contempalting is not "idle thinking...day dreaming...about...... HIM. NO. Its got to be PRACTICAL application in ordinary everyday LIFE.

my humble thoughts...

Gyani ji,

Guru fateh.

I agree with you. Contemplating in other words is putting the Gurmat engine together with the help of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, piece by piece, within and then start it and take it for a ride on the Gurmat journey by sharing goodness with others.

And then what happens when we do that? I

Its result is explained beautifully in Japji by Guru Nanak: Gaviei, sunhiei, munn rakhiei bhao. Dukh par har sukh ghar lei jaie.

Tejwant Singh

lalihayer · #8 (**permalink**) 13-Apr-2009, 00:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vsgrewal48895

dear teJi,

i posted the following hymn in the post of “meat in sikhism” under the notion that to consume any kind of meat should be a matter of personal preference on the basis of taste etc, as it is foolhardy to bring religion into this issue. I referred to the following hymn of bhagat kabir after referring to guru nanak’s hymn in siri raag that eating mind altering substances is no good for sikhs. Since meat eating does not affect the mind and further clarified by guru nanak in raag malar does not prohibit eating meat except on individual preferences. Here are various translations of the hymn by different authors.

ਕਬੀਰਭਾਂਗਮਾਛੁਲੀ ਸੁਰਾ ਪਾਨਿ ਜੋ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ਖਾਂਹਿ ॥ ਤੀਰਥ ਬਰਤ ਨੇਮਕੀਏ ਤੇ ਸਭੈ ਰਸਾਤਲਿ ਜਾਂਹਿ ॥
kabir bhaang maachulee sura paan jo jo praanee khaaneh, teerath barat naym keeay tay sabhay rasaatal jaaneh.

translation by macauliffe in the sikh religion-vol-6, page, 314-published 1909

kabir, the mortals who eat bhang, fish (banares pundits used to eat fish at the time of kabir) and drink wine, shall go to hell, whatever pilgramages, fastings, and daily devotion they may perform.

translation by gurbachan singh talib, vol 4, page, 2751

saith kabir:creatures that consume hemp, fish or liquor, even though visiting holy spots, keeping fasts and vows, all to nethermost hell must go.

translation by manmohan singh vol 8, 1969, page, 4545

kabir, who so ever of the mortals partake of meat (translated from bhang), fish, and wine; what ever pilgramages, fasting and daily rites they may perform, they all go to hell.

translation by gurbachan singh makin, vol 4, page, 1376/2759

o kabir! Thev persons, who partake of wine, meat,(extra) and fish (or any viscious thing) waste all their efforts visiting holy place of pilgramage, keeping fasts and other religious formalities as nothing fruitful could be gained by them.

translation by sant singh khalsa.

kabir, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell.-----bhagat kabir slokes # 233, aggs, page, 1377-2 & 3
two authors added the word meat, one in place of fish and the other just an additional word.

cordially,
virinder

ਗੱਲ ਸਿਰਫ ਐਨੀ ਹੈ, "ਐਥੋਂ ਪੁੱਟ ਤੇ ਐਤੇ ਲਾ।"
ਮਨ ਸਰੀਰਕ ਸੁਆਦਾਂ 'ਚੋਂ ਨਿਕਲਿਆ ਨਹੀਂ, ਫਿਰ ਫੋਕੇ ਕਰਮ ਕਾਂਡਾਂ ਦਾ ਕੀ ਫਾਇਦਾ? ਇੱਕ ਹੱਥ ਨਾਲ ਪਿੱਛਾ ਘੁੱਟ ਕੇ ਫੜਿਆ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਦੂਜੇ ਪਾਸੇ ਅਗਾਂਹ ਨੂੰ ਛਾਲਾਂ ਮਾਰਨ ਦਾ ਕੀ ਫਾਇਦਾ?
ਪਰ ਕਈ ਮੀਟ ਖਾਣ ਜਾਂ ਨਾ ਖਾਣ ਵਾਲੀ ਬਹਿਸ ਵਾਲੇ ਮੂਰਖ, ਇਸ ਤੁਕ ਨੂੰ ਆਪਣੇ ਮਤਲਬ ਲਈ ਵੀ ਵਰਤਦੇ ਨੇ। ਸ਼੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਗਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਇਹ ਨਹੀਂ ਦਸਦੇ ਕਿ ਕੀ ਖਾਣਾ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਕੀ ਨਹੀਂ।

vsgrewal48895 · #9 (**permalink**) 13-Apr-2009, 01:03 AM

Dear Lalihayer Ji,

What you have written is correct. The same sentence was the begining lines of the abstract in the article posted as "Meat in Sikhism". It was hijacked. This time the hymn is being used as to what the translators miss/add etc in doing their job.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24574
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24574

Thanks again for stressing the issue.

Cordially,

Virinder