Translations of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj: The Difficult and the Contradictory

Narayanjot Kaur · #10 (**permalink**) 13-Apr-2009, 09:57 AM

Forum members -- before this thread goes off track, please do not post in Punjabi. My respect for all of you is without limit. However, I set up some rules at the beginning of the thread so that we keep our noses to the translations of Guruji into English and compare English translations.

Would some one please translate the response by Forum Member Lallihayer ji to Virinder ji in post number 8?
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/24574-translations-sri-guru-granth-sahib-maharaj.html
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24574

What will we learn if we are talking about English translations and an explanation is given in a language that English speakers cannot read? The same is true for responses that explain Gurbani using the thinking of Professor Sahib Singh as written in Punjabi. What is learned about English translations when the discussion is in Punjabi. It is almost like keeping what one knows a secret. Thank you: aad0002

Narayanjot Kaur · #11 (**permalink**) 13-Apr-2009, 10:13 AM

Virinder ji and other participants,

Thank you for providing the various translations, I am re-posting part of your original post in order to move in the direction of comparing meanings based on differences in translation.

Here is what you posted, as translations by 5 scholars:

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ਕਬੀਰਭਾਂਗਮਾਛੁਲੀ ਸੁਰਾ ਪਾਨਿ ਜੋ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ਖਾਂਹਿ ॥ ਤੀਰਥ ਬਰਤ ਨੇਮਕੀਏ ਤੇ ਸਭੈ ਰਸਾਤਲਿ ਜਾਂਹਿ ॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24574
Kabir Bhaang Maachulee Sura Paan Jo Jo Praanee Khaaneh, Teerath Barat Naym Keeay Tay Sabhay Rasaatal Jaaneh.

Translation by Macauliffe in The Sikh Religion-Vol-6, Page, 314-published 1909

Kabir, the mortals who eat bhang, fish (Banares Pundits used to eat fish at the time of Kabir) and drink wine, shall go to hell, whatever pilgramages, fastings, and daily devotion they may perform.

Translation by Gurbachan Singh Talib, Vol 4, Page, 2751
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24574
Source:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24574

Saith Kabir:Creatures that consume hemp, fish or liquor, Even though visiting holy spots, keeping fasts and vows, All to nethermost hell must go.

Translation by Manmohan Singh Vol 8, 1969, Page, 4545

Kabir, who so ever of the mortals partake of meat (Translated from Bhang), fish, and wine; What ever pilgramages, fasting and daily rites they may perform, they all go to hell.

Translation by Gurbachan Singh Makin, Vol 4, Page, 1376/2759

O Kabir! Thev persons, who partake of wine, meat,(Extra) and fish (or any viscious thing) waste all their efforts visiting holy place of pilgramage, keeping fasts and other religious formalities as nothing fruitful could be gained by them.

Translation by Sant Singh Khalsa.

Kabir, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell.-----Bhagat Kabir Slokes # 233, AGGS, Page, 1377-2 & 3
Two authors added the word meat, one in place of fish and the other just an additional word.

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I have three questions:

1. What would be the reason or motivation for a translator to "add" a word (in this case meat) when it is obviously not there. I have observed this in other translations of parts of Granth Sahib Maharaj. The reason cannot be to "clarify" Kabir's meaning in this particular line because bhang, fish and wine/liquor is very specific.

2. Does the basic or essential meaning of the line differ in spite of the differences in translation?

3. Do we have good reason to believe that Kabir ji is not specifically concerned about bhang, fish and wine/alcohol but instead these refer to or symbolize states of mind on the part of individuals who use them.? As symbols of their arrogance of social status? Or the use of costly foods and substances to brag about their prestige and wealth? Or even the mental amd moral confusion and tendencies to ego, lust, greed, atachment, even anger (in drunkenness) that these substances might cause?

Many thanks for your explanations.

lalihayer · #12 (**permalink**) 13-Apr-2009, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aad0002

Forum members -- before this thread goes off track, please do not post in Punjabi. My respect for all of you is without limit. However, I set up some rules at the beginning of the thread so that we keep our noses to the translations of Guruji into English and compare English translations.

Would some one please translate the response by Forum Member Lallihayer ji to Virinder ji in post number 8?

What will we learn if we are talking about English translations and an explanation is given in a language that English speakers cannot read? The same is true for responses that explain Gurbani using the thinking of Professor Sahib Singh as written in Punjabi. What is learned about English translations when the discussion is in Punjabi. It is almost like refusing to share what one knows and keeping it secret. Thank you: aad0002

aadji, I have no secret. Punjabi is not a secret language. I just got overwhelmed by fact that we can type language of our beloved Guru on internet even without installed fonts.

Narayanjot Kaur · #13 (**permalink**) 13-Apr-2009, 10:23 AM

You are just like me then -- because I am font-crazy. Please translate for us, lallihayer ji.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24574

lalihayer · #14 (**permalink**) 13-Apr-2009, 10:33 AM

What Kabir ji is saying is that on one side we are still engrossed in physical pleasures (taste of meat, intoxicants etc), but on the other side we are doing religious rituals like fast, pilgrimage etc. It is like with one hand we are still holding tight onto this mortal world, but trying hard to reach next world.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24574
If we can't overcome our physical desires, how can we reach our eternal home, which is beyond this physical body and its tempetations.
But some fools, who debate about meat consumption (fools is word given by Satguru to these debaters), use this tuk in their point against meat. Guru Granth Sahib is not our eating manual or some kind of rehatnama, it is our spiritual enlightener.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24574
I tried to say in English, but Punjabi is my first langugae and English is second.

Narayanjot Kaur · #15 (**permalink**) 13-Apr-2009, 10:40 AM

Lallihayer ji

Your English is about as good as mine. Thanks for providing the explanation.

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #16 (**permalink**) 13-Apr-2009, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vsgrewal48895

Dear Lalihayer Ji,

What you have written is correct. The same sentence was the begining lines of the abstract in the article posted as "Meat in Sikhism". It was hijacked. This time the hymn is being used as to what the translators miss/add etc in doing their job.

Thanks again for stressing the issue.

Cordially,

Virinder

Guru Piayare Grewal ji,
Gurfateh.

"hijacked" ?? Forgive me for "hijacking" just one word from your message.
but surely....GURBANI belongs to ALL...no one can claim it was "hijacked"..only the owner can do that.
THIS is WHY i advocate COMPLETE SHABADS complete with RAHAO TUKS. That way NOBODY can hijack anything !! the perfect "anti-Hijack" device...

Have a HAPPY KHALSA DAY Ji.

Cordially

jarnail Singh

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #17 (**permalink**) 13-Apr-2009, 11:24 AM

aad ji,
Lallihayer is saying...Its a matter of UPROOTING from one side and REPLANTING on the other...
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24574
uproot from the world of Maya..and replant in the world of Naam..
how can we JUMP Forward..IF we HOLD on tightly to our PAST...we put one foot forward..but the other is held fast towards the back...summary of hsi post in Punajbi. Forgive any ommissisons and exceptions.

Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24574
PS. My addition.
Bulleh Shah was bust planting ONIONS..when a person passed by and asked him...How to Japp Naam.
Bulleh who was busy UPROOTING the seedlings and then going on to the FIELD and REPLANTING the uprooted seedlings of onions...said these words...Ethron puttnna ate udhar laavnna..uproot from here..and replant there...uproot your MIND from this world..and replant it in Naam !! Success.

Narayanjot Kaur · #18 (**permalink**) 13-Apr-2009, 11:48 AM

Actually the thread was hijacked by a moderator when it was merged with Fools Who Wrangle over Flesh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gyani Jarnail Singh

Guru Piayare Grewal ji,
Gurfateh.

"hijacked" ?? Forgive me for "hijacking" just one word from your message.
but surely....GURBANI belongs to ALL...no one can claim it was "hijacked"..only the owner can do that.
THIS is WHY i advocate COMPLETE SHABADS complete with RAHAO TUKS. That way NOBODY can hijack anything !! the perfect "anti-Hijack" device...

Have a HAPPY KHALSA DAY Ji.

Cordially

jarnail Singh