What is Faith and Dharama as per Gurbani

Seeker07 Ji,

You said receiving Naam as an objective which is a disputable thing. I have to agree with you here.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/16923-what-is-faith-dharama-per-gurbani.html

The way I understand, Naam is not a phrase or word like a mantra.

What is Your understanding of Naam ?
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Respected Sir,

Your answer is very diplomatically drafted.

However, I shall be frank with you. My mother in law visited me a few days back. She is an Amritdhari Lady and is very punctual in maintaing the Sikhi ways of Life. I had asked her what is Naam for ‘sikh’. She responded without any hesitation or delay. I would also fall in line and would state that ‘waheguru’ is the Naam for me. As on date,there is no reason for me to believe otherwise.

‘Naam’ may not be a word . I should not know the answer to your question if the answer is other wise. After referring to Granth Sahib ji one may think that Naam is or may be a state of mind as it is present in every one of us.

I am quoting few lines as follows:

nwmu AauKDu soeI jnu pwvY ] (179-4, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
He alone receives the panacea, the medicine of the Naam,
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=16923
kir ikrpw ijsu Awip idvwvY ] (179-4, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
unto whom the Lord, in His Grace, bestows it.
The following lines are also helpful for deducing something called as /Naam’.

sB ikCu qyrw qUM krxYhwru ] (178-17, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
Everything is Yours; You are the Creator Lord.

AMqu nwhI ikCu pwrwvwru ] (178-17, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
You have no end or limitation.


dws Apny kau dIjY dwnu ] (178-17, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
Please give this gift to Your servant,

kbhU n ivsrY nwnk nwmu ]5]9]78] (178-18, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
that Nanak might never forget the Naam. ||5||9||78||
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=16923


From the above lines I get some indication that Naam should be something that should not be forgotten and it is equivalent to the name of the Lord that has the energy present in it that is the insignia of the Lord Himself. Hence it cannot be a state of mind.


nwmu AauKDu soeI jnu pwvY ] (179-4, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
[He alone receives the panacea, the medicine of the Naam,]


kir ikrpw ijsu Awip idvwvY ] (179-4, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
unto whom the Lord, in His Grace, bestows it.]

Again from the following ‘Tuks’

gurmqI Git cwnxw sbid imlY hir nwau ]2] (30-9, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)
[Through the Guru's Teachings, the heart is illuminated. Through the Shabad, the Name of the Lord is received. |]


Following lines are quoted for reference:

nwmu inDwnu sd min vsY mhlI pwvY Qwau ]1] rhwau ] (30-8, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)

[The Treasure of the Naam abides forever within the mind, and one's place of rest is found in the Mansion of the Lord's Presence.]


As per the above ‘Naam ‘ is present in the mind and one has to realize this. As I do not have indepth knowledge of the bani , I do conclude that One has to realise the naam and that it should be either a state of mind or should be ‘akhar’ or some ‘sabad’ only.This may be in the form of cosmic energy that may be pervading in ‘etheric Akaash’ and we have to feel the vibes as this energy is energised by the Naam.

As per the following it should be something that should not be forgotten.

nwnk gurmuiK nwmu iDAweIAY sic imlwvw hoie ]4]13]46] (31-15, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)
[O Nanak, the Gurmukh meditates on the Naam, and is united with the True Lord. ]

Following line is also suggestive that Naam should be a word only or something like a feeling/state of mine that is beyond description e’g the taste of salt can best be explained by some word and hence we have to take the help of some words to explain the concept of Naam else we cannot discuss about this.

AMimRqu swcw nwmu hY khxw kCU n jwie ] (33-3, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)

[The True Name is the Ambrosial Nectar; no one can describe it.]

It is given or realised if He bestows His grace.

Awpy dyie q pweIAY horu krxw ikCU n jwie ] (33-4, isrIrwgu, mÚ 3)
[He Himself gives, and then we receive. Nothing else can be done.]


I think., Sir, that I have tried to answer you honestly. Would be very grateful if you could share your point of view. I fail to go beyond this because of limited knowledge.

Regards.

Respected Begum ji,
The 'Naam' is generally not discussed on the forums. However, as we have started this let us take it to some logical end that we derive the benefit. It is fully appreciated that you may have entirely different point of view But that you should explain. We are here to not to fight .Rather we are sharing for mutual benefit. There is nothing right or wrong in Dharma as it is not a perfected branch or science. We are discussing something that would qualify for 'metaphysical'. Kindly do not make me refer some other web-sites.The essence is lost in this process.
I give below the 'quotes' of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji for your kind perusal.

jo n sunih jsu prmwnµdw ] (188-7, gauVI, mÚ 5)
Those who do not listen to the Praises of the Lord of supreme bliss,
psu pMKI iqRgd join qy mMdw ]3] (188-8, gauVI, mÚ 5)
are worse off than beasts, birds or creeping creatures. ||3||
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=16923
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=16923
khu nwnk guir mMqRü idRVwieAw ] (188-8, gauVI, mÚ 5)
Says Nanak, the GurMantra has been implanted within me;
kyvl nwmu ird mwih smwieAw ]4]42]111] (188-8, gauVI, mÚ 5)
the Name alone is contained within my heart.

The above clearly contains the term like Guru Mantra and Naam that in translation has been stated to be Name. I am not in agreement with this translation as well.
What is your take on this.

Seeker07 Ji,

I thank you for giving me and others an opportunity to involve ourselves on the finer points of Sikhism. It is a learning process for me. My style of answer is often an indirect approach because most questions yearn for fulfilling the thirst which is within. You may enquire about Shabad, Naad, Naam, Mantar, Gurmantar, Gurparsad, Guru, True Guru or Satguru - they are all going to lead you to the same source; the fountain of amrit within. You might be disappointed by my answers or they might lead you to ask more questions. So long as you look on the outside of yourself for the answers, you are definitely going to be dissappointed.

Irrespective of caste, creed, sex, descendency; all individuals come into this world from the mother's womb by the union of sperm and ovum.
Kabir while addressing a high caste priest, told him: "O Brahman, should you claim high birth and on that account special privileges, you ought to have been born in a way different from that of the rest."
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=16923

Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=16923
Spirituality is really a universal truth rather than religious. Therefore, all wisdom from the various religious scriptures should have a common goal which is that of a Godly nature.

God cannot be realised outside oneself, even in the holy places of worship, no matter what their denomination might be. To realise Him, one has to enter into the laboratory of the human body which in the truest sense of the word is the temple of God. Real worship and devotion are purely internal and mental processes, unconnected with and independent of any and everything outside the human frame. All that is required is purity of mind. With an ethical background, one can worship God anywhere under the blue sky, for the whole world is a vast temple of God, and there is no place without Him, including the specific places of worship. In fact, wheresoever devotion kneels in humility, that place becomes sanctified.


More Later.

Respected Sir,

Have gone thru. your post very carefully. I am not likely to be disappointed by your answers as this is the area which not many authors have covered in detail. Infact, there is no adequate literature available on this subject and many preachers have their own view points.

I am totally ignorant so far as this aspect of Naam/shabad/naad /sound current and obviously includes The explanation of the term Guru that you have very clearly stated in the above post. Entire Sikhi and Bani is only about a good human being and obtaining 'the Jewel' within or wherever it should be.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=16923

These terms are of immense significance for the community of sikhs as a whole and would be of interest to all the visitor of the site.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=16923

It is true that you would be required to answer some questions of mine that may appear irrelevant when asked in future posts of mine. Kindly forgive me for this. But I have a strong urge to explore as to how to reach that 'jewel' that is , even as per gurbani, within all of us.

We should be very free and frank and should not answer in indirect method or using a language that may lead to more than one meaning. In such a case the discussion becomes abstract.

There are many articles on 'Naam' on this site. I have gone thru. some of them. None has cleared the concept of Naam. I would be grateful from the core of heart if you begin with your post and kindly bear with me for my impatience and ignorance.

Best Of Regards.

Seeker07 Ji,

Let me start with some verse from Gurbani and other sources,


Sant Kabir says, "O Pandit, you and I cannot possibly agree in our conclusions, for you speak of things as you have read in sacred texts, while I speak what I have seen".

Guru Nanak says,
"Nanak does not utter a single syllable of His own, except as He is moved from within".


Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=16923
Christ said, "I do nothing of myself; but as my Father has taught me, I speak these things".

What is Naam ?



In the Nad-bind Upanishad, we find,

A yogin ought to sit in Sidha Asan, and adopting

Vaishnavi Mudra, should hear within him the "Sound"

coming from the right side. (Nad-bind Shalok 31)

In the Muslim scriptures, It is variously described as Kalam-i-Ilahi (The Voice of God), Nida-i-Asmani (the Sound from Heaven), Ism-i-Azam (the Great Name), Saut-i-Sarmadi (the Intoxicating Sound), Saut-i-Nasira (the Sound Melodious), Kalam-i-Majid (the Great Commandment) and Kalam-i-Haq (the Voice of Truth) which can be heard inside, and It was taught as Sultan-ul-Azkar or the King of prayers.

And listen to the call of Music coming from above.

MAULANA RUMI

The whole world is reverberating with Sound,

To listen to It thou must unseal thine inner ears,

Then shalt thou hear an Unending Music,

And that shall lead thee beyond the confines of death. SHAH NIAZ

Drive away all skepticism from thy mind,

And listen to the strains of heavenly music,

And receive within thee the messages of God,

For these come only by holy communion with the self.

The Prophet declared that he heard the Voice of God,

And it fell on his ears as clearly as any other sound,

But God has sealed thy ears,

And so ye listen not to His Voice.

MAULANA RUMI

Philosophical: The Divine Name, Word or Sabad, as used by Guru Nanak, from the philosophical point of view, comes very close to the concept of the Logos in the ancient European Philosophy. It has a great similarity with the doctrine of the Logos as propounded by Philo Judaes, who lived in Alexandria in the first-half of first century B.C. and first-half of first century A.D. According to the doctrine of Logos, the Word is the creative, actively expressed and revelatory thought and Will of God which is at once distinguished and identified with Him. It is the immanent Rational Principle in the universe, and it is the active principle in all divine and esoteric knowledge. The Logos is the Reality of all realities underlying the whole universe. It is the First Substance from which everything has its origin.

Theological: The Divine Name, or Sabad, is identified with the presence of God which can be realized in one’s own consciousness. All spiritual expression of divine knowledge by the Gurus is called ‘Sabad’, or ‘Bani’. In practical, religious and mystical life, each prophet or Guru gave a word, or a formula of words, which not only describes the divine spirit but also, when used for practice in contemplation, was instrumental to the complete realization of the Divine presence. Therefore, from the theological point of view, according to Guru Nanak, there are two types of Names: Firstly, there are attributive names of the Supreme Reality, such as, Hari, Govind, Ram, Haq, Rahim, etc. Secondly, there are names that are brought to the world out of empirical studies, observation of nature, or experience of great prophets, such as, we find the Name "OM" in the Upanishads, ‘Ahura Mazda’ in the Zend Avastha, Tao of Lao Tzu, ‘Omkar’ and ‘WaheGuru’ by the Sikh Gurus. Omkar and Waheguru are immensely evocative and highly esteemed in the Sikh scriptures.

According to Guru Nanak, the Divine Name (NAAM), or the Word, which he also calls Sabad, is the Cause of the universe. It is the way of His expression. The phenomenal world is the attribute with which God is described. The attributes of God can be found only in an outward expression or manifestation in the external world. Besides, it is through these attributes that God manifests His creative activities in the world. Therefore everything of this world is an aspect of the Divine Name, or the Word, to which it owes its existence.

Respected Begum ji.

Greetings to you and Thanks for your elaborate reply.
I shall come to the point without any prolegomenon and shall be grateful for your guidance.


WORD/SABAD


In this context it is state that the ‘word’ that you have stated should be ‘OM’ as it is supposedly the voice of the creator that was employed for creating the entire ‘Sargun’ creation.


OM and reference in Scriptures


We have a reliable reference of ‘OM’ as it appears in Geeta . Geeta is supposed to be containing the essence of the entire Vedas that were also the creation of The Lord Himself. It is also representative of the Tri Gunas.

This has been also confirmed by Gurbani as well.

The method of uttering/chanting of OM is very lucidly stated in this Holy Book that sikhs have been prohibited to follow as per Rehat-Nama. I am not sure as to what was the position when the First Rehatnama would have been prescribed by the Guru sahibs when Rehat was introduced formally.


ONG and Sikhs


The parallel word in Sikhi is stated to be ‘ONG’ .I do not have any scriptural reference.[ if any is available]. ‘ONG’ is stated to be derived from the OM . Hence the two words are not the same.


Problem and reconciliation-1.


Can there be two words like OM and ONG that were employed by the Almighty for bringing the creation into being and setting the play in motion.? As per common sense there cannot be two words. It has to be one only. OM is more ancient than ONG. It would be as per common understanding as well.

One would have to reconcile the above and a consensus should emerge as to the ‘word’ used for the purpose of the Creation. There is nothing that I can suggest as ONG is employed in Ek-Ong-kar as well. The problem can be sorted out if one believes in Vedas. The Sikh Rehat- nama as drafted by SGPC clearly prohibits the Vedas/Geeta for Sikhs.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=16923

Name of Lord and Naam


While discussing Gurbani and going through it very carefully one finds that the term Like the ‘Name of Lord’ and ‘Naam’ have been used. The translators in their own wisdom have chosen to select 'Naam' or 'Name' while carrying out the translations.

The former refers to ‘Waheguru’/Satnam/Ek-ong-kar while the latter refers to the term /’word’ like ONG.
Kindly correct me if it is wrong inference.



Problem and Reconciliation-2


2a. Waheguru

Sikhs are to mediate and remember the Almighty uttering/chanting the Name of the lord/God . One may use any name that has been used in Jaap sahib ji or ‘waheguru’ or anything that is representative of the Almighty. One may even coin a new expression for oneself that suits one. The terms ‘waheguru’ and ‘Allah-hu’ brings in some element of respective religion or have some secteran appeal. There is no direct reference or guidance in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in this regard. I am not aware of this. I stand to be corrected if there is such a provision. However, we rely on ‘waheguru –gurumantra hey’ that is stated in Vaaran [Bhai Gurdas ji]. There is no inclusion in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
However, one need not go into any controversy and can remember HIM by any name that suits.

2b. Naamdaan

There is similar term like ‘naam’ that refers to the ‘word’ as stated by you. The term for Sikhs is ‘ONG’. I would be very grateful if it is so and if that be the case then why should the Guru Saahibaan be addressing something like ‘Naamdaan’ if Naam/’word’ is already known if one takes ONG into consideration. This term has been used daily by the Sikhs all over the world.

What is the significance of Naam Daan in relation to Sikhs?

2b.1 Naam a Gift from God.

Why should it be that almost entire Granth sahib ji contains the reference to it as a gift from GOD and the precious jewel that one has to obtain from the God who will give it to the devotees as if it is something tangible. Kindly correct me. Things would be easier if there is some transparency in Sikhi literature. I can assure you, Sir, that none talks about this in this explicit manner.

If it is a gift from God then what is the significance of the term ‘ONG’ that is so beautifully embraced in Ek-Ong-Kaar.?

If above is not correct, kindly state and correct me as well.


2b.2 Contemplation on Naam and significance

It is also in Gurbani that one should contemplate the ‘Naam’. What is the meaning of this. Should one contemplate on ’ONG’? I shall quote some ‘Tuks from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in my next post after your goodself has replied and I have a confidence that I am correct in my various assumptions.

2b.3

What will happen if we keepon remembering HIM by the name of GOD and not through the ‘word’?


Problem-3
3.a.Bani
As stated in one of your post Bani also means the same. I shall make two assumptions as follows and one question in 3b.

• Gurbani is to be stated that contains the spritual wisdom and guidance in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

• The ‘word’ or ‘sound of this word’ has been stated to be ‘True Bani’ or Saachi Bani’.

3.b
When we say ‘Bani nirankar Hi’ ,do we mean that ‘guru sabad’ i.e. Gurbani is Nirankar. Or the term ‘word’ like ONG is Nirankaar.

It is quite likely that I might have gone tangent to the usual meaning.I need not reiterate that I stand to be corrected and forgiven if I have caused any disrespect to anything or might have hurt someone in the process.

Problem-4
Sabad/ Shabad

At many places we have a reference of shabad in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. It has two meanings :
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=16923

1. The 'word' as stated by you above.
2. The one , as is understood by sikhs, to mean the "Shabads' taken from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji/Sabad guru to eulogise the Creator and
Creativity.

One has to take out the contextual meaning.Am I correct.?

I think we have covered the terms like 'Name of God'/Naam/NaamDaan/Sabad/Shabad/ True Bani/Gurbani.

Using terms to express the Absolute is a never-ending story. There are various outer names of God; the Holy Naam, or Word, can be practised by all alike, without the agency of tongue or palate. It does not require adherence to the outward observances of social religions. This Word may be defined as the spirit-current which emanates from the One Being. It forms all the spiritual and material planes as It comes down, from plane to plane, reverberating in and out of all of them. As the lower planes are less subtle and more material than those above, the Word accordingly changes in sound as It comes down. Since It has to pass through five planes, It takes on five different sounds. These are five aspects of the one and the same Word. Guru Nanak deals with this at full length in stanza XV of the Jap Ji:-
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=16923

By practice of the Word, one finally attains salvation;
By practice of the Word, one leads one's kith and kin
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=16923
as well to freedom;
By practice of the Word, one saves not only himself
but when he becomes an Adept, many others whom he guides;
By practice of the Word, one freed from desires, escapes from
the wheel of transmigration.
O, great is the Power of the Word,
But few there be that know it.

Other references from Gurbani about Naam are:-

Day and night, I am in communion with the Lord, with my mind fully convinced. The temple of my body has thus been beautified. The five Sounds of the limitless Music--the Word--are resounding. O, the Lord has entered my body. --Suhi M.1

The five Sounds become audible through the instructions of the Gurmukh--the Personified Word. Great is the luck of him who hears Them. The source of Joy and Peace (Word), I see as pervading everywhere. Through the Word, the Lord made His appearance and became manifest. --Kanra M. 4

The five Sounds of the limitless Music (Word) are resounding within me. I am attracted to Them, as the Sarang or the sea-bird is attracted by the sight of water. Thy bondsman, Kabir, thus glorifies in Thee, O Lord, the Unknowable and above all human ken. --Parbhati Kabir

Word is the Guru. Soul is the disciple of the Word -- the melodious song. --Ramkali M. 1


Many other references are available from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

begum

Guru and God: An examination


I had the opportunity to listen to Gyani Maskeen ji today at 7.30 p.m IST wherein he discussed the relationship between Guru and God. He had quoted many ‘Tuks’ from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. I am not aware of those and hence have missed a few. I shall quote only part of these as per that I could retain. As the subject is of contemporary interest I am trying to re-produce that I could retain.

Fact1.

There is no difference between Guru and God. Guru is God and vice versa is true and that there cannot be anything else. Both the Guru and God are ever present with us. Both have the same qualities i.e. they have transdental nature.

Aad ant Eko Avtara soi Guru Samjhio Hamara.

Fact2.
Guru is not any intermediary between the human beings and the God as is ordinarily understood. He ,himself, is the God.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=16923

Fact3.
As per Guru–Bani also the following is of relevance.

so dru qyrw kyhw so Gru kyhw ijqu bih srb smwly ](8-14, Awsw, mÚ 1)
Where is That Door of Yours, and where is That Home, in which You sit and take care of all?

The above reference shows that door and Home are two different things but these are not so as the door belongs to the house as there cannot be the house without a door. The basic objective of Guru is to bring the one to the door of the God the Almighty and the rest would be taken care of by the God himself. The duty of the Guru is to bring the human being at the entrance of the house of the God. An ordinary human being is not capable of reaching the door of the God.

Fact4


Guru is not any physical object that one has to search for. Nor can one expect to find Him in this manner. He is an energy, a creative power full of creativity that human mind cannot gauge. His creativity is unfathomable. In any case God is not a person. Some Religion states that God is in the Seventh sky, this is not correct depiction. One can only come to know about a part of creative power and can experience the Truth, the SAT.

Fact5


If one admits that he is doing only if he is commanded to do and establish the Karma with some agency, it is not easily comprehended by the ordinary human mind as the person may be in direct touch with the God and would be acting under His command. He cited the example of Socrates and Baba Nanak. The Bedi’s of his time considered baba Nanak a fool. However, such a claim can be made by a single person out of millions [exact term used was out of crores and that would mean out of tens of millions]

Fact6



As to who is Guru?


Maskeen ji had quoted some couplet of Kabeer ji that I do not remember as it was fairly lengthy and I could not note it down. However in essence Kabeer sahib had stated that His Guru was Gyan /knowledge/revealation and enlightenment.[ Maskeen ji used some couplet as well and that I do not remember]

The fact that one can understand the nature and the creative power of the Almighty leads one to realize HIM and the mission of life is fulfilled. The fact that one can establish relationship with the creativity will lead to such enlightenment. This kind of knowledge will itself serve the purpose of a Guru.


PS.
I have tried to reproduce the above as per my understanding and the knowledge of English. There may be some difference in that what he stated exactly. I have to omit few things as I could not note.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=16923
Submitted for perusal of all the Sangat.

2. Respected Begum ji:
I have gone thru the reply as posted by your goodself . I shall revert back and would request you to kindly forgive me if I overdo and please feel free if I cross my limits