Help explain tuks please

kaur-1 · #1 (**permalink**) 02-Aug-2007, 03:25 AM

Could sangat jio please help explain the meaning of the tuks.
siqgurU ibnw hor kcI hY bwxI ]
sathiguroo binaa hor kachee hai baanee ||
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/16513-help-explain-tuks-please.html
Without the True Guru, other songs are false.
bwxI q kcI siqgurU bwJhu hor kcI bwxI ]
baanee th kachee sathiguroo baajhahu hor kachee baanee ||
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=16513
The songs are false without the True Guru; all other songs are false.
khdy kcy suxdy kcy kcNØI AwiK vKwxI ]
kehadhae kachae sunadhae kachae kacha(n)aee aakh vakhaanee ||
The speakers are false, and the listeners are false; those who speak and recite are false.

from SikhiToTheMAX - Enabling Gurmat Knowledge

This Shabad is by Guru Amar Daas Ji in Raag Raamkalee on Pannaa 917

gurvinder_janu · #2 (**permalink**) 02-Aug-2007, 19:40 PM

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=16513
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=16513

Respected Kaur-1 ji,

As fas as my understanding goes, this is in connection with the Gurmukhs who follow sikh religion and for whom the only Guru is Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. He/she should recite Gurbani from Sri Guru Granth Sahib only and lead his/her life according to Guru's(Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji) teachings. For him/her all other Bani is Kachhi Bani.

Please forgive me.

Gurvinder Kaur

kaur-1 · #3 (**permalink**) 02-Aug-2007, 19:49 PM

Thank you bhenji Gurvinder Kaur, I am in two minds over this tuks. On one hand I have the same point of view as your kind self on the other hand :
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=16513
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=16513

Does it also mean that, even for a Sikh, without Guru's Kirpa, bani is unripe (kacchi) since its only with Guru's kirpa we can acquire gyan (spiritual understanding of gurmat).

simpy · #4 (**permalink**) 02-Aug-2007, 20:21 PM

The major factor here is OUR BELIEF. If we believe in Guru, Guru's Kirpa happens. Guru's Kirpa is always there, we have to become worthy of it, by making our belief UNSHAKBLE.

kacha- from Gurbani:

mwxu inmwxy qUM DxI qyrw Brvwsw ]
maan nimaanae thoon dhunee thaeraa bhuruvaasaa
You are the honor of the dishonored. O Master, in You I place my trust.

ibnu swcy An tyk hY so jwxhu kwcw ]1] rhwau ]
bin saachae an ttaek hai so jaanuhu kaachaa
Without the True One, any other support is false - know this well. ||1||Pause||

eyko syvI sdw iQru swcw ]
eaeko saevee sudhaa thir saachaa
I serve the One Lord, who is eternal, stable and True.

dUjY lwgw sBu jgu kwcw ]
dhoojai laagaa subh jug kaachaa
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=16513
Attached to duality, the whole world is false.

gurmqI sdw scu swlwhI swcy hI swic pqIjY hy ]1]
gurumuthee sudhaa such saalaahee saachae hee saach putheejai hae
Following the Guru's Teachings, I praise the True Lord forever, pleased with the Truest of the True. ||1||

horu sB pRIiq mwieAw mohu kwcw ]
hor subh preeth maaeiaa mohu kaachaa
All other loves and emotional attachment to Maya are false.

ibnis jwie kUrw kcu pwcw ]
binas jaae kooraa kuch paachaa
They shall pass away, like false and transitory decorations.

jn nwnk pRIiq iqRpiq guru swcw ]4]4]42]
jun naanuk preeth thripath gur saachaa
Servant Nanak is fulfilled, through the Love of the True Guru. ||4||4||42||

jYsy ikrswxu bovY ikrswnI ]
jaisae kirusaan bovai kirusaanee
Just like the farmer, He plants His crop,

kwcI pwkI bwiF prwnI ]1]
kaachee paakee baat puraanee
and, whether it is ripe or unripe, He cuts it down. ||1||

jo jnmY so jwnhu mUAw ]
jo junumai so jaanuhu mooaa
Just so, you must know this well, that whoever is born, shall die.

goivMd Bgqu AsiQru hY QIAw ]1] rhwau ]
govindh bhuguth asathir hai theeaa
Only the devotee of the Lord of the Universe becomes stable and permanent. ||1||Pause||

In Gurbani, Kacha, Kachi-- it means that is frail, that is false, that will not last, that is subject to life and death, that is not true, ....

i believe that Guru Ji is telling us here(the tuk under consideration from the first post), that bani of those who are not realized yet, who are not aware of 'THE TRUTH/SACH'- is also not Sach(pakki), is misleading as they themselves are still lost in koor.

Gurbani is Guru Ji's bani- so is pakki, FOR EVER, we understand it or not, IT IS NOT SUBJECT TO CHANGE.....
Gyan comes with Guru Kirpa, same way we are able to read Gurbani with ONLY GURU KIRPA, same way we are able to understand it with only Guru Kirpa, and we cannot evenimagine HOW and THROUGH WHOM Guru Kirpa is going to happen- AS GURU IS EVERYWHERE- SACH

Guru Sahib Tells us-

mÚ 1 ]
mu 1
First Mehl:
scu qw pru jwxIAY jw irdY scw hoie ]
such thaa pur jaaneeai jaa ridhai suchaa hoe
One knows the Truth only when the Truth is in his heart.
kUV kI mlu auqrY qnu kry hCw Doie ]
koorr kee mul outhurai thun kurae hushaa dhoe
The filth of falsehood departs, and the body is washed clean.
scu qw pru jwxIAY jw sic Dry ipAwru ]
such thaa pur jaaneeai jaa sach dhurae piaar
One knows the Truth only when he bears love to the True Lord.
nwau suix mnu rhsIAY qw pwey moK duAwru ]
naao sun mun rehuseeai thaa paaeae mokh dhuaar
Hearing the Name, the mind is enraptured; then, he attains the gate of salvation.
scu qw pru jwxIAY jw jugiq jwxY jIau ]
such thaa pur jaaneeai jaa jugath jaanai jeeo
One knows the Truth only when he knows the true way of life.
Driq kwieAw swiD kY ivic dyie krqw bIau ]
dhurath kaaeiaa saadh kai vich dhaee kuruthaa beeo
Preparing the field of the body, he plants the Seed of the Creator.
scu qw pru jwxIAY jw isK scI lyie ]
such thaa pur jaaneeai jaa sikh suchee laee
One knows the Truth only when he receives true instruction.
dieAw jwxY jIA kI ikCu puMnu dwnu kryie ]
dhaeiaa jaanai jeea kee kish punn dhaan kuraee
Showing mercy to other beings, he makes donations to charities.
scu qW pru jwxIAY jw Awqm qIriQ kry invwsu ]
such thaa pur jaaneeai jaaaathum theerath kurae nivaas
One knows the Truth only when he dwells in the sacred shrine of pilgrimage of his own soul.
siqgurU no puiC kY bih rhY kry invwsu ]
sathiguroo no push kai behi rehai kurae nivaas
He sits and receives instruction from the True Guru, and lives in accordance with His Will.
scu sBnw hoie dwrU pwp kFY Doie ]
such subhunaa hoe dhaaroo paap kutai dhoe
Truth is the medicine for all; it removes and washes away our sins.
nwnku vKwxY bynqI ijn scu plY hoie ]2]
naanuk vukhaanai baenuthee jin such pulai hoe
Nanak speaks this prayer to those who have Truth in their laps. ||2||

Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=16513

so we need to become Sachyara- BANI IS PAKKI - FOREVER, FOR ALL, EVERYWHERE..........................

humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness

Soul_jyot · #5 (**permalink**) 02-Aug-2007, 21:24 PM

FOR YOUR KIND CONSIDERATION:
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=16513

source: http://www.gurugranthdarpan.com/darpan1/0917.html

24. mwiek rsW vwlI kivqw, gur-AwSy qoN ault jwx vwlI bwxI, prmwqmw dI is&iq-swlwh qoN suM\I bwxI, mn ƒ mwiek suAwdW vwlI iKc pwx vwlI bwxI mn ƒ kmzor krdI hY, mwieAw dI Jlk dy swhmxy iQVkw dyNdI hY [ AjyhI bwxI in`q pVHn suxn vwilAW dy mn mwieAw dy twkry qy kmzor ho jWdy hn [ Ajyhy kmzor ho cuky mn ivc Awqmk Awnµd dw suAwd nhIN bx skdw [ auh mn qW mwieAw dy moh ivc PisAw huMdw hY [
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=16513

25. siqgurU dI bwxI prmwqmw vloN iek Amolk dwiq hY, ies ivc prmwqmw dI is&iq-swlwh BrI peI hY [ ijhVw mnu`K ies bwxI nwl Awpxw mn joVdw hY, aus dy AMdr prmwqmw dw ipAwr bx jWdw hY, qy, ijQy pRBU-pRym hY auQy hI Awqmk Awnµd hY

gurvinder_janu · #6 (**permalink**) 03-Aug-2007, 22:16 PM

Does it also mean that, even for a Sikh, without Guru's Kirpa, bani is unripe (kacchi) since its only with Guru's kirpa we can acquire gyan (spiritual understanding of gurmat).
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=16513

Respected Sister Kaur-1 Ji,

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=16513

In my opinion reading bani is the first step to get kirpa of Waheguru and by the Kirpa of Waheguru one is able to read/follow Gurbani. Though both appear contradictory, even then both are interdependent.

Gurbani is not unripe, the essence of bani is not different for persons at different levels of spirituality. For the beginner like me it is sachi bani and for the persons who have progressed on the path of spirituality it is sachi bani too.

Pleae forgive me.

Gurvinder Kaur