Is There A God?

Atheist · #1 (**permalink**) 12-Mar-2010, 08:26 AM

Dear Sikhs,

I would like to know why you believe in god. I am intrigued - is it a personal experience? If so, what was it? Please elaborate on why you believe in god, thank you.
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Tejwant Singh · #2 (**permalink**) 12-Mar-2010, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atheist

Dear Sikhs,

I would like to know why you believe in god. I am intrigued - is it a personal experience? If so, what was it? Please elaborate on why you believe in god, thank you.

Athiest ji,

Guru Fateh.

Before we can discuss your question, please share with us what the word God means to you and do all religions that you have in mind when you mentioned the word God think/define God as you do?

Thanks

Tejwant Singh

Atheist · #3 (**permalink**) 12-Mar-2010, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tejwant Singh

Athiest ji,

Guru Fateh.

Before we can discuss your question, please share with us what the word God means to you and do all religions that you have in mind when you mentioned the word God think/define God as you do?

Thanks

Tejwant Singh

Thank you for your reply. By "god" I mean a personal god. I mean an intelligent, conscious entity that is the sole supreme ruler and the creator of the universe. An entity that cares about human affairs, answers prayers, performs miracles, and judges us if we do something "wrong."

Many religions use a definition similar to this. Growing up as a Sikh, my parents told me that god listens to our prayers (ardaas) and answers them and helps us, and that we are judged by our deeds (like it is said in Salok at the end of Japji Sahib - some get closer to god and some go further) which leads me to believe that Sikhism champions a "personal" god. Christianity also uses a "personal" god but it's much different - the holy trinity. Judaism with Yaweh I think also uses a personal god. Mormons, B'hai's, Catholics, and Muslims all believe in some form of a personal god (though the specifics are obviously different) - they all believe in a god that created the universe and cares about us. Not sure about Buddhism, haven't read the whole thread on this website about that topic.

Einstein believed in a "pantheistic" god - he used the word "god" simply as a metaphor for the natural laws of the universe (making him an atheist). Others believe in a "hands-off" or non-personal god (deists), believing that god created the universe but then retired, never to care about human beings and certainly not intervening or answering prayers.

So my question deals with the "personal" god, as I am assuming (correct me if I'm wrong) that most Sikhs believe in a personal god, as evidenced by the fact that Sikhs pray, do ardaas and kirtan, and say that god uses karma to get us closer to or further from god. Granted Sikhism states that you can't truly define god using our words - Guru Gobind Singh lists many characteristics of god in the Dhasam Granth but none truly define Him/Her/It.

I don't believe in a god of any kind, just like no one here believes in the tooth fairy. I still appreciate Sikhism as a philosophy and believe that the Gurus were centuries ahead of their time, but to say that there is a "god" that actually cares about me sounds like wishful thinking (everyone says if something is too good to be true, then it probably is - what else is more good than god?). If anyone is interested I would be more than happy to delve into why I don't believe in god - but for most of my life I was a believer.

Hope that clears it up.

Tejwant Singh · #4 (**permalink**) 12-Mar-2010, 11:19 AM

Atheist ji,

Guru Fateh.

Thanks for the response.

I am a bit confused when you say 'personal god'. Personal is very relative. When you walk in the open, the breeze you feel is personal, the sunshine that is upon you is very personal, the rain drops when you are walking in the rain are in the same manner personal. So your abstract response does not say much.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/general-discussion/29504-is-there-a-god.html
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=29504

Secondly, in Sikhi god is not a belief, but Ik Ong Kaar IS. Beliefs do not need any truth. Mool Mantar explains what Ik Ong Kaar IS.

Please read it thoroughly, try to understand it. There are many translations/interpretations that can be found on this site and also on the internet.

Once you have studied the above, and if you have any questions, please do not hesitate to ask, then we can discuss about the concept of god you have in your mind.

For you to explain/justify your absence/lack of belief in something, firstly, you have to understand what that something is and under what context it is used by someone and if it has a universal meaning or not. If it does not then that something may mean a lot of different things to different people.

Tejwant Singh

Narayanjot Kaur · #5 (**permalink**) 12-Mar-2010, 11:25 AM

Atheist ji

I find your perspective on the question Is There a God? a fascinating perspective. And I am not certain that I agree with your conclusions, though your thinking leading to your conclusion shows signs of some serious reflection, a quality that I respect.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=29504
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=29504

So I am intrigued. How do you reconcile your thinking with the Mool Mantar, which makes note of One who is timeless and self-existent, yet the doer of everything, and who bestows grace. It seems to me the Mool Mantar includes elements of both not person and godly.

I am not making a case for a blended definition of God. Simply curious to read your reply. It should be worth reading. and OOOOOOOOOOPs! Tejwant ji posted a similar question just as I was posting. My question has a bit of a different take.

Lee · #6 (**permalink**) 12-Mar-2010, 18:52 PM

Atheist ji,

It is a good question.

Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=29504
Why do I belive in the existance of a creator God?

*shrug* I really don't know I guess I just always have done so.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=29504

That by itself is probably not any good to you , but then if I was to ask you to consider the roots for some of your own belifes, I wonder what would happen.

Navdeep88 · #7 (**permalink**) 13-Mar-2010, 09:48 AM

yea, i hope.

Atheist · #8 (**permalink**) 13-Mar-2010, 10:25 AM

Thanks everyone for their replies, this is the kind of discussion I want. I will try to reply to each issue.

1) When an atheist says "personal god" we simply mean an entity that created the universe and cares about human affairs. The word "personal" might not be the best choice, so just think of it as a "hands-on god" - again meaning a god that intervenes in human affairs (for example by answering prayers and listening to ardaas). From what I have seen, Sikhi champions some form of a hands-on god (Sikhs are not deists)
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=29504

2) I have read Mool Manter several times. I have memorized japji sahib and a lot of rehras sahib. I can do kirtan and play the tabla. My parents are quite religious and have explained many shabads and sikh history to us, so I do have a fairly good understanding of the basics

3) The issue I have with religious thought is exactly what was said here - "Ik Ong Kaar IS." A christian can just say that jesus IS, and islam says that allah IS. One reason I am atheist is because you cannot simply decree that something IS and have that be your only defense as to why it exists. If I told you that some gospel says that the pink unicorn IS, that wouldn't impress you much would it? But the mool manter does to you, and the bible does to christians - my question is why (and you can't just say "because the gurus said so" because the christians can "because god says so" - and again that would not impress you because you don't believe that jesus is god

4) Atheists do not need to explain why they don't believe in god and don't have to understand god to choose not to believe in him/her/it. There are an infinite number of things which someone could believe in - like the pink unicorn on the moon and the tooth fairy. Do you believe in either? No of course not. But did anyone say that you had to explain why or tell you that you first need to understand the unicorn or the tooth fairy? No of course not. The onus is on the person who claims that something exists - the theist has to justify why they believe in god, just like the person who believes in the tooth fairy should explain why. In other words, don't believe in something by default or because you were simply raised that way by pure accident

5) How do I reconcile with the Mool Mantar? The Mool Mantar is a series of alleged facts of god. If I made a similar series of such facts, no one would expect you to reconcile with it. Again, the Mool Mantar simply decrees these aspects of god. If I just "decreed" aspects of the pink unicorn on the moon, would that impress you? Of course not, and you wouldn't even think about having to reconcile it, but you think I need to reconcile the Mool Mantar. Again you cannot just say "because Guru Nanak wrote it" because the Mormons can just say "joseph smith wrote it" but clearly that doesn't compel you to be mormon does it?
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=29504

6) Atheism is not a belief. It is a lack of belief. This is a common misconception. I do not accuse you of having a "belief" in the non-existence of the pink unicorn. So everyone here is an "a-unicornist" and an "a-tooth fairy-ist." What is the root of your "belief" that the unicorn and tooth fairy don't exist? It sounds absurd when I ask this, yet it is analogous to you asking me the roots of my beliefs that god doesn't exist. If you show me real evidence, then I will conclude that there is a god.

Hopefully this stirs up some more discussion. I appreciate everyone putting in the time to share their thoughts. The basic question remains: Why do you believe in whatever type of god you believe in?

Thanks.

Sinister · #9 (**permalink**) 13-Mar-2010, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atheist

Einstein believed in a "pantheistic" god - he used the word "god" simply as a metaphor for the natural laws of the universe (making him an atheist). Others believe in a "hands-off" or non-personal god (deists), believing that god created the universe but then retired, never to care about human beings and certainly not intervening or answering prayers.

So my question deals with the "personal" god, as I am assuming (correct me if I'm wrong) that most Sikhs believe in a personal god, as evidenced by the fact that Sikhs pray, do ardaas and kirtan, and say that god uses karma to get us closer to or further from god. Granted Sikhism states that you can't truly define god using our words - Guru Gobind Singh lists many characteristics of god in the Dhasam Granth but none truly define Him/Her/It.

I don't believe in a god of any kind, just like no one here believes in the tooth fairy. I still appreciate Sikhism as a philosophy and believe that the Gurus were centuries ahead of their time, but to say that there is a "god" that actually cares about me sounds like wishful thinking (everyone says if something is too good to be true, then it probably is - what else is more good than god?). If anyone is interested I would be more than happy to delve into why I don't believe in god - but for most of my life I was a believer.

Hope that clears it up.

ok this is what i have posted on another thread

Pantheism is dominant in eastern tradition.

Let us rationally and honestly try to justify the existance of god (and then work backwards to relate to the different philosophies):

Let us make the supposition that an individual not only believes in the existance of truth but also believes that god is infinite truth, yet continues to, what appears to be redundantly, to affiliate his reality with that of a infinitely describable entity, god.

Now through Descartes Law of Universal Causation we know that all beliefs are born through an agency by which effect is produced; which means, that even the birth of redundancies have cause.

But upon closer inspection, god is not a redundancy.

So, God is, through the miracle of linguistics, a rational discription and understanding of truth.

We cannot categorize unknown truths (yet to be truths) in the same breath as known truths. We have the existence of known truths and justified true beliefs. But where is new information coming from? (what feeds and asists the ever expantion of knowledge itself). For the internalist new information is just that what is not realized within the mind, for the externalist new information has not been sensed. This new information (literally the unknown) that has not been retrieved, interpreted and realized is also god.

So God is a universal all encompassing concept of truth, whose linguistic equivalent in this case, does not exist...thus making his existence or understanding non-reduntant

God is both realized and unrealized truths.

Of coarse, now psychological reasons can be drawn out, because if god is both existing and yet to be existing truth, then the pursuit for god is a rational choice, that gives life meaning and may expand the cause for expansion of imagination. …we can also involve discussion of free will but... lets start with this.