Truth

[P J Singh]

I am humbly throwing this open for a collective reflection. My goal is to understand God as a(n) object for deeper reflection.

When we say God is Truth, Gurbani gives us a clear and succinct answer right at the outset how my God as an object or entity is described:

ਆਦਿ ਸਚੁ ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਸਚੁ ॥ਹੈ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ॥੧॥

It roughly translates as: God is an Entity that existed in primordial time, in the past ; it exists now and will exist in the future. (ਸਚੁ here means existence or presence - NOT as any noun) That is, God is an Entity of Absolute Permanence.

Now let us flip it. Truth is God

When we say Truth is God; we need to first understand the preceding word Truth before we can understand the second word that is our object of interest (God).

Anyone, please help me understand TRUTH without reference to God or ANY entity as none existent besides God.
God's existence is pronounced and presumed at the outset of GGS (in which I firmly believe) as ੴ

My intent is to figure out what is correct : God is Truth OR Truth is God

 

[gjsingh]

No, Truth is not God, but absolute Truth is in God. Consider the idea that Thomas Aquinas had about this. He said that examining things, we can find a greater or lesser amount of truth in them. But to say 'greater' or 'lesser' is always in comparison with something that must have the greatest possible truth in it. Same goes for goodness, nobility, and so on. So there must be something that is the truest, noblest, best, and so on. To put it simply, there must be some being that has the perfection of every quality imaginable. This is God.

 

[A_seeker]

My goal is to understand God as a(n) object for deeper reflection.

Interesting

Anyone, please help me understand TRUTH without reference to God or ANY entity as none existent besides GoThis is

you need to find a living guru .All other understaing is just abstract knowlgedge coming from egoistic minds...

 

[Warriorlight]

Interesting

you need to find a living guru .All other understaing is just abstract knowlgedge coming from egoistic minds...

Guru Granth Sahib Ji is literally the Gurus words, and the words of Sants and Bhagats. It's them speaking Truth for us to learn and apply to our lives.

 

[P J Singh]

No, Truth is not God, but absolute Truth is in God. Consider the idea that Thomas Aquinas had about this. He said that examining things, we can find a greater or lesser amount of truth in them. But to say 'greater' or 'lesser' is always in comparison with something that must have the greatest possible truth in it. Same goes for goodness, nobility, and so on. So there must be something that is the truest, noblest, best, and so on. To put it simply, there must be some being that has the perfection of every quality imaginable. This is God.

Thank you. Sorry for the delay acknowledgement. I absolutely agree. "God is Truth".

It is ironic that our parcharks and some others seem to overlook this foundational concept. Gurbani also makes this very clear:

ਕਿਰਤਮ ਨਾਮ ਕਥੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਜਿਹਬਾ ॥ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਪਰਾ ਪੂਰਬਲਾ ॥

God is an "Absolute Truth" - Truth means "eternal or incessant" existence of presence.

All other uses of the words like ਸਤਿ or ਸਚੁ or ਝੂਠ in Gurbani needs to be interpreted based on context in which they are being used - theses words often refer to "truth" in "relative" sense. For example:

In Asa Di Vaar, Guru Sahib states:
ਸਚੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਖੰਡ ਸਚੇ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡ ॥
ਸਚੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਲੋਅ ਸਚੇ ਆਕਾਰ ॥

Here Gurbani is talking about "truth" relative to the Material Reality.

In Mehala 9 Salok, Guru Sahib says:
ਜਗ ਰਚਨਾ ਸਭ ਝੂਠ ਹੈ ਜਾਨਿ ਲੇਹੁ ਰੇ ਮੀਤ ॥
ਕਹਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਥਿਰੁ ਨਾ ਰਹੈ ਜਿਉ ਬਾਲੂ ਕੀ ਭੀਤਿ ॥

Here Gurbani is talking about "ਝੂਠ" relative to the Absolute Truth (God).

 

[P J Singh]

Guru Granth Sahib Ji is literally the Gurus words, and the words of Sants and Bhagats. It's them speaking Truth for us to learn and apply to our lives.

In Sikhi, there is no living guru as such; Guru Granth Sahib and the wisdom embedded in it is the "living" Guru and the only Guru for us to guide.

"Sabad" was Nanak's guru and of our 10 gurus and Bhagats listed in GGS.

"Sabad" is the total intelligence/knowledge that has ever existed, and is existing right now or will ever exist.

Guru's and Bhagats, because of the spiritual threshold from where they were operating, could access this domain of profound wisdom (Sabad). They could get only a bucket full out of the ocean of knowledge and scripted it in GGS for humankind to learn, reflect and act.

They had reach to "Sabad" - thus their Guru and Nanak's guru was "Sabad".

We do not have reach to Sabad; our reach is only to what they have given us in GGS.

It is for this reason gurbani has repeatedly underscored that our access to Akalpurkh is only through GGS as ਵਿਚੋਲਾ.

Also one must keep in mind; intuition is always abstract. Except for some accidental discoveries, all scientific and non-scientific breakthrough came from intuitive reasoning at the outset.

God is not abstract; our intellectual ability and sensory intelligence is relatively infant and not able to grasp it.

 

[A_seeker]

gurbani doesnt discount the concept of living guru . infact having a long tradition of living guru in Sikhi is a strong testimony why guru in living form playes a crucial role..

Guru Granth Sahib and the wisdom embedded in it is the "living" Guru and the only Guru for us to guide.

But then it is subject to interpretation. When you read translations of Gurbani, you are reading the personal opinions of translators.


We must treat all translations as personal opinions and not as the actual text.


Better translators provide better translations. But no matter how good a translator is, no translation can ever capture 100% of the original message.

God is not abstract; our intellectual ability and sensory intelligence is relatively infant and not able to grasp it.

thats why we need a guru ... Intellectual study of texts will not necessary diagnosed or remove the veil of ego .

Pothi parh parh jag muaa, pandit bhayo na koi.
Reading texts alone does not produce wisdom.

A medical textbook cannot diagnose or heal a patient without a living doctor.

It is for this reason gurbani has repeatedly underscored that our access to Akalpurkh is only through GGS as ਵਿਚੋਲਾ.

please share the shabad..

 

[Dr. D. P. Singh]

It highlights:

• God is Truth: Faith-centred, source of Truth
• Truth is God: Ethics-centred, pursuit of Truth
• Sat Naam: Practical, ethical, and experiential; meditation and living truthfully

The above diagram makes the connection between these philosophical ideas visually intuitive.

 

[P J Singh]

View attachment 23706
It highlights:

• God is Truth: Faith-centred, source of Truth
• Truth is God: Ethics-centred, pursuit of Truth
• Sat Naam: Practical, ethical, and experiential; meditation and living truthfully

The above diagram makes the connection between these philosophical ideas visually intuitive.

Veer ji, thank you for sharing this illustration. In the spirit of a constructive dialogue and need for human mind to use "Bibak Budh" to understand gurbani, I humbly share some of my reflections that jump out of the Venn Diagram:

1) Whether we are talking about "source of Truth" or "pursuit of Truth", the meaning of the word "Truth" remains undefined - which is the primary thrust of this thread. If we understand the meaning of "Truth" then Gurbani tells us that "Truth" is the defining and the principal virtue of God: ਆਦਿ ਸਚੁ ਜੁਗਾਦਿ ਸਚੁ ॥ਹੈ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹੋਸੀ ਭੀ ਸਚੁ .
To me this line suggests:
a) God is an Absolute Truth - every thing else is relative; and
b) God is non-transitory; everything else is transitory - HE is an entity of Existential (Eternal) Permanence

2) The second circle states "Truth is Ultimate Reality"; use of the word "Reality" here suggests that we are confined to Sargunn State; Gurbani states that God also exists in NirGuun state ( where there is no mass and matter). Existence of such a state was confirmed by science and it took 50 years for particle physicists before they decided to construct LHC, the largest, most technologically sophisticated machine ever built to scientifically validate Higgs mechanism to figure out how mass came into existence to form matter and everything else, at the instant of the big bang (ਕੀਤਾ ਪਸਾਉ ਏਕੋ ਕਵਾਉ ॥).

3) In the third circle, there is reference to "Universal Truth". Again the use of the word "Universal" seems to suggest we are confined to the "Universe" --the Surgunn State -- and thus discarding God's existence in NirGunn State. The word Universe is a synonym of Reality. I would argue that "Universal Truth" is subset of "Eternal Truth", not the other way around as this circle seems to suggest. I gather by labelling it as "Universal Truth", you actually mean "Eternal Truth".

I would agree with you what you stated in third circle: God is an Eternal Truth or God is an Absolute Truth where "Truth" means an entity of Existential (Eternal) Permanence