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Spirit, God, Soul -- I Don't Believe In It

S|kH

SPNer
Jul 11, 2004
380
29
38
We Are PENN STATE!!
Plenty of times, either as excuses or not, people tend to claim that one must search the "inner" being before keeping our physical appearance (Kesh), or that the physical appearance is no longer a necessity.

One often brings up how a person doesn't need an outside, and "God" can see all of our actions, and that they are pure in their hearts, and thats all that matters.
Both, go hand in hand, and make-up our complete self.

Here is an essay I would like to share with everyone that addresses this issue head-on :

Last weekend at a talk I gave to the Philadelphia Association for Critical Thinking (PhACT), someone asked me, “I’m confused. Do you or don’t you believe in something called the soul, the spirit, or God?”

I had been talking about the historical abstraction of spirit from matter, and my questioner wanted to know on which side of the fence I stood. Am I an atheist like him, my beliefs firmly grounded in logic, reason, and reality? Or have I bought into a fairy-tale about some non-material realm?

I explained that the answer is neither, and that in fact the very terms of his question contained a trap. Our very conception of spirit is as something separate from matter; our very conception of soul is as something distinct from the body; our very conception of God is as something not of this world. But there is another way to understand these concepts.

In fact, the views of atheists and the views of many believers are only superficially different. While they may disagree about the existence of an extra-material God, they do agree that the world of matter is just the world of matter. They both assume that spirit – if it exists – exists in a separate realm. They both agree that the soul – if it exists – is contained in but separate from the body. They are in fundamental agreement on the mundanity of the material world in which our flesh-and-blood bodies live.

This fundamental agreement is why our culture generally treats the world as if it were not sacred and the body as if it were not holy. The separation of spirit from matter (whether or not the former is believed to exist) is perhaps the most damaging ideology of our civilization, for it has allowed us to despoil the planet and its inhabitants with seeming moral impunity. This ideology says that the spiritual realm (again, if it exists) lies within, and is to be found in the inner realm of prayer and meditation, or the non-material realm of otherworldly experiences and visions. This is a spirituality for which I have little use.

The alternative I offered the group was that matter and spirit are not separate – matter is spiritual. “And this,” I said, thumping my chest, “is what a soul looks like.” I do not contain a soul, I am a soul. Do you want to see God? Look around you.
But here again I ran into the limitations of language, because it sounded like I was saying that spirit, soul, and God don’t really exist – all there is is matter. So I explained further. What I mean when I say that matter is spiritual, is that matter possesses the qualities that we ordinarily associate with spirit. When I say that the body is the soul, it means that it possesses the qualities we ordinarily associate with soul. You see, the deflation we feel when we consider, “There is no such thing as soul or spirit, it’s all just matter” arises from the implications of that word, “just". Matter is not just matter.
Matter, in fact, is far far more than we ever imagined it to be – and the same goes for the human body. And this is not some consolation prize for the denial of spirit. Spirit exists! Spirit is all around us, in everything and everyone. No, not quite. It is not “in” everything and everyone, it is everything and everyone. By that I mean that matter has all the properties of spirit: specialness, uniqueness, sacredness, sentience. And this is true of all matter, down to the very atoms and sub-atomic particles that make it up.

Until the 20th century, science left no room for such a claim. The program of science, after all, was to reduce everything to mere combinations of a few generic building blocks, whose behavior was fully determined by the impersonal laws of physics. In this paradigm, there would be no limit to our power to engineer and control the universe, because each particle, having no individuality, would behave in a way fully determined by the forces brought to bear upon it. And we humans are made up of such particles, a fact that motivated the attempts of psychology, sociology, anthropology, and economics to derive the “laws” of human behavior. There was no room for uniqueness, no room, at bottom, for self-determination, whether of an atom or of a person. The world was populated by automatons and the soul, at best, was a ghost in the machine.

All of that changed in the 20th century, when it was discovered that fundamental particles possess an irreducible uniqueness. An electron traveling through an aperture changes its course in a way that is irreducibly random. Or at least, “random” is the word we use to describe it. But another way to look at it is that the electron chooses its path. Crucially, this choice is not determined by any other hidden variables. Each electron is unique because each electron will eventually make different choices when subjected to enough “measurements” – that is, interactions with the world. Another word for measurements is relationships. The sum total of all a particle’s relationships makes it unique.

And we are composed wholly of such particles. While orthodox scientific opinion has it that quantum interdeterminacy routinely cancels out in systems of more than a few dozen particles, the very fact that we can be understood as a vast interacting collection of constantly choosing particles, each a unique individual, provides at least a metaphoric basis for seeing ourselves the same way.

Significantly, the choice of a particle only ever occurs in relationship to another being – an observer in the laboratory, for instance, or even another particle. In the absence of relationship, all choices exist as potentials only; they are not real. The same could be said for us humans. We only define ourselves through our relationship to each other and the world. As I titled a previous essay, we are our relationships.

I bring this up here because it gets at another important characteristic of soul, and therefore, of ourselves. We are unique, yes, but we are not separate. Our uniqueness comes from the totality of our relationships, which is different for each of us, but we are not separate from those relationships. Our relationships define who we are. With this in mind, I offered the following exercise to one of the attendees at my talk, and I offer it to you now. It is quite simple, and designed to put into practice the realization that we are not the discrete, separate beings we think we are.

Here is what to do: simply walk around and go through your day, and every time you interact with someone, see yourself looking out at you from their eyes. For me, this exercise has an extraordinary power that words cannot do justice. It isn’t just an intellectual exercise, a metaphor, an idea, and it won’t work unless you actually do it. When I do it, I really get it. You are me. I am you. We are the same being looking out at each other from different eyes. What other name could we give such a being, but God?

I think Guru Nanak to Guru Gobind had come across this realization before, that is why we grow hair, because it exists, because its given to us. That is why we treat our bodies correctly, because they are APART of the mind/soul. We are APART of God, it is the inner-self and the outer-self. We obtained 5 K's to help us take care of our outer-self. We obtained the Guru Granth Sahib to soothe both parts.
One must take care of both, not just the inner-self.

Anyways, discuss the article here.
 

Anoop

SPNer
Mar 12, 2006
153
14
London Uk
S|kH said:
Plenty of times, either as excuses or not, people tend to claim that one must search the "inner" being before keeping our physical appearance (Kesh), or that the physical appearance is no longer a necessity.

One often brings up how a person doesn't need an outside, and "God" can see all of our actions, and that they are pure in their hearts, and thats all that matters.
Both, go hand in hand, and make-up our complete self.

Here is an essay I would like to share with everyone that addresses this issue head-on :



I think Guru Nanak to Guru Gobind had come across this realization before, that is why we grow hair, because it exists, because its given to us. That is why we treat our bodies correctly, because they are APART of the mind/soul. We are APART of God, it is the inner-self and the outer-self. We obtained 5 K's to help us take care of our outer-self. We obtained the Guru Granth Sahib to soothe both parts.
One must take care of both, not just the inner-self.

Anyways, discuss the article here.


I have been throught the exact knowledge of what you are saying. I am not a pure sikh, i have hair cut. I am always wondering, how do i get motivated in life. The only way is to belive in god. But then, i get depressed thinking about where god is. God is the truth, what really exists and is existing. It is like going back to the origin for human beings. When we think of god being external, we go over the limit, thinking we can do anything and we are powerful, however that doesn't last long. The next step i took was to belive that if god is the truth, and prevails everywhere because nothing can exists without the truth (origin), i then started to search for god by meditating. I keep saying that god is inside of me. But it is very hard, because i need to hair uncut hair to make myself perfect, and true. I am not true to my self because i am afrai of how i will look if i had kesh. I am not letting my truth go outside. We still have a egoism in us when we think of god being in us. We have to realise that, to be stronger and true, the only way is be play god everywhere, not just inside. Then i think about the soul. We cant just say that the soul is god. We do not know our limitations. I do not know if my soul gives me limitations, or it makes me stronger? Does the soul mean you have limitations, or does it mean you can tackle anything.
 

sikandar

SPNer
Apr 3, 2006
6
0
47
Anoop said:
I have been throught the exact knowledge of what you are saying. I am not a pure sikh, i have hair cut. I am always wondering, how do i get motivated in life. The only way is to belive in god. But then, i get depressed thinking about where god is. God is the truth, what really exists and is existing. It is like going back to the origin for human beings. When we think of god being external, we go over the limit, thinking we can do anything and we are powerful, however that doesn't last long. The next step i took was to belive that if god is the truth, and prevails everywhere because nothing can exists without the truth (origin), i then started to search for god by meditating. I keep saying that god is inside of me. But it is very hard, because i need to hair uncut hair to make myself perfect, and true. I am not true to my self because i am afrai of how i will look if i had kesh. I am not letting my truth go outside. We still have a egoism in us when we think of god being in us. We have to realise that, to be stronger and true, the only way is be play god everywhere, not just inside. Then i think about the soul. We cant just say that the soul is god. We do not know our limitations. I do not know if my soul gives me limitations, or it makes me stronger? Does the soul mean you have limitations, or does it mean you can tackle anything.

Anup ji

Its all in your mind, Human nature is something that we do what we want to because we don't have control over our mind.
As you mentioned you want to stop cutting your hairs but you are scared of your looks. See , you are basically doing what ever your mind want you to do .
But as said in gurbani " Maan Jeeta Jaag jeet". If you can win your mind you can win this world. Lot of ill feelings like Kaam , Krodh,lobh , moh hankar comes in our mind but we should have control over these. If you will ask how can we have control over this. the answer is gurbani. If you regularly meditate in the name of god .. do your Nit Nem .. you can have control over your mind. Believe me, you will be able to stop cutting your hair and win over your mind.

Like some body said "Where there is will, there is way".

Guru Fateh
Sikandar Singh
 

Anoop

SPNer
Mar 12, 2006
153
14
London Uk
sikandar said:
Anup ji

Its all in your mind, Human nature is something that we do what we want to because we don't have control over our mind.
As you mentioned you want to stop cutting your hairs but you are scared of your looks. See , you are basically doing what ever your mind want you to do .
But as said in gurbani " Maan Jeeta Jaag jeet". If you can win your mind you can win this world. Lot of ill feelings like Kaam , Krodh,lobh , moh hankar comes in our mind but we should have control over these. If you will ask how can we have control over this. the answer is gurbani. If you regularly meditate in the name of god .. do your Nit Nem .. you can have control over your mind. Believe me, you will be able to stop cutting your hair and win over your mind.

Like some body said "Where there is will, there is way".

Guru Fateh
Sikandar Singh

Brother Sikandar Singh, do you mean that god is bascially what really exists. Because i still quite puzzled about what you have written before.
 

drkhalsa

SPNer
Sep 16, 2004
1,308
54
Dear Anoop


As Understanding given to me by god

In sikhism The God has not been told to be outside or related to soul or something like that !!

Actually their is nothing except , each and every thimg you can see , feel, disscuss or just even think of is god
I mean absolutely only go is present and nothing else ever exist or can exist !!

So Why do we some time assosiate godd with the inner seld or soul?????


well for human creation to understand the concept of God /or Realise god lies in this theme that nothing exist except god

BUt to start with understanding this concept thhe self or the body of the human is nearest to him and is bautiful gift of god , and every human mind or intellect spends the maximum tim eof his life with it , so this becomes the first thing to realise god and here come the meditation and understanding inner self

In sikhism it starts from the self ( which includes soul /body) and then the understanding extends to the all cosmos
I mean to start with one relises god within self and and then within whole cosmos each and every atom o fthe universe and there is no place left for the ego to exist

So dont feel bad or disheartened about being mot complete sikh as every thing is in the hand od AKAL( god)
And if you have feeling to understand god then surely God will help you in this work as he present everywhere and also this the most valuable work that Human can do in their life time

So Cheer up as it is really fascinationg and adventures journey
Start reading gurbani and try to understand Guru JI s Word Akal Will definately giude you and that day will definately come when you will be Puran Sikh with realisation of god inside and outside of you and each and every atom of the universe


May Akal Bless YOu


Jatinder Singh
 

Anoop

SPNer
Mar 12, 2006
153
14
London Uk
drkhalsa said:
Dear Anoop


As Understanding given to me by god

In sikhism The God has not been told to be outside or related to soul or something like that !!

Actually their is nothing except , each and every thimg you can see , feel, disscuss or just even think of is god
I mean absolutely only go is present and nothing else ever exist or can exist !!

So Why do we some time assosiate godd with the inner seld or soul?????


well for human creation to understand the concept of God /or Realise god lies in this theme that nothing exist except god

BUt to start with understanding this concept thhe self or the body of the human is nearest to him and is bautiful gift of god , and every human mind or intellect spends the maximum tim eof his life with it , so this becomes the first thing to realise god and here come the meditation and understanding inner self

In sikhism it starts from the self ( which includes soul /body) and then the understanding extends to the all cosmos
I mean to start with one relises god within self and and then within whole cosmos each and every atom o fthe universe and there is no place left for the ego to exist

So dont feel bad or disheartened about being mot complete sikh as every thing is in the hand od AKAL( god)
And if you have feeling to understand god then surely God will help you in this work as he present everywhere and also this the most valuable work that Human can do in their life time

So Cheer up as it is really fascinationg and adventures journey
Start reading gurbani and try to understand Guru JI s Word Akal Will definately giude you and that day will definately come when you will be Puran Sikh with realisation of god inside and outside of you and each and every atom of the universe


May Akal Bless YOu


Jatinder Singh

Brother Jatinder Singh, i think i understand where you are going with this. Very good theory, and it is absolutely true. God is everywhere, so we havent got anything to fear. Infact, i think your trying to say that, we are god, but there is no ''we'' in us. God is us in whole. Its like we are one but with so many eyes looking at ourselves. We are one looking at ourself. This means to say that, we have no fear of death. This is just a drama. But its very hard to learn this. Especially by thinking about it, it is easy, but somehow hard at the same time to understand.
 

skeptik

SPNer
Sep 6, 2006
81
1
The obvious answer is that in the Gurus times saintly men grew beards, and so too would the Guru's Saints. The hindu saints had a jura and so too would the Sikh saints. This distinguished the Sikh as a saintly man - to either a hindu or a muslim, or a jew or a christian. These faiths too , in conservative fashion yield to this symbolism of long hair and turban.

Any more discussion, especially about souls and spirits and so on is largely conjecture, and cannot be justified with reason, because it invokes supernatural explanation.

hope this helps veer :)
 

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