Sant Isher Ji and Suleman the Ghost

[Warriorlight]

Hi everyone,

Has anyone heard about the ghost Suleman that met with Sant Isher Ji and his sangat? I've linked the recording of the conversation with Suleman at the bottom of this post. He possessed a 10 yr old boy, his voice clearly changed to a mans voice and started speaking a different language. Makes you think about death, and how ghosts are normal people who die and can still speak like Suleman did etc. The recording/ any translations are good for anyone to listen to, it can give a better perspective on life and how temporary and short it is and what can come after. This is a good reminder that we all will die one day and it's good to do our Bhagti now in this janam while we still have it.

This is the link to the conversation with Suleman the ghost, there should be an english translation of the convo somewhere online too:

Someone posted the below about it on a forum over 20 yrs ago in 2005:

Read in the book "pret kiton devte" by the Hapur Mahapursh - they were there when Suleman first came.



Suleman was a pir and saw his daughter and a sadhu together romantically while he was in samaadhi and got angry and went looking for the sadhu to kill him. He couldnt find the sadhu and when he got home he burnt his daughter and a short while later his wife died of grief.



then he started doing bad things for money as he had ridhia sidhia.



after he died he was taken by jamdoot to dharamrai - took one year, beating him all the way. He describes what dharamrai looks like - 'beard white like the sun, skin red like molten copper'. Dharamraja tells him he has to go to kunbi narak until he learns his lesson, and then has to be a pret for a thousand years.



Suleman asks how he will get mukti - Dharamrai says that God will come to earth in the form of 10 Gurus, after some time when Sulemans sentence is finished there will Guru Nanak Dev ji's sant in Rara Sahib who will give him mukti.



Then he asks Dharamrai where the sadhu who slept with his daughter is as he wants revenge. Dharamrai says that he will be a boy called manmohan singh and you will recognise him when you see him. You can beat him, but you cant kill him, he will lead you to Sant Isher Singh.



Suleman says he met Guru Nanak Dev Ji in mecca medina, where he was told he had to do what Dharamraja told him. He also says that he met Guru Gobind Singh Ji but not in detail - he was questioned by someone and suleman answered "I have already told you I met him."



Suleman says that people used to to pooja at his grave (muslims), and one day a boy urinated on the grave, suleman looked at him and recognised the sadhu he has been wiating for. He started attacking him, until he remembered Dharamrajas word, and let him go, when the boy became uncoinscious. The villagers quickly came and got him, doctors found nothing wrong - didnt know what had happened.



At first he cam to Hapur in someone elses body and then started speakin in manmohan singh, who was in Maharaji's sangat.



Maharaji found someone to have suleman as a baby that both suleman and the family agreed to and suleman went. First he refused to go to someones house coz they were rich, then when he agreed to this family he said that he would go but wouldnt sell newsparers ( that was his father to be's work)



A few weeks later Suleman turned up at Rara Sahib again, Maharaji asked him why he broke his word, Suleman said he didnt break it - it takes six months for the human to form and then he will go back because the pain was too much in the womb - written in Anand Sahib paat as well (mata ke udar meh pratipal kare).



Maharaji said ok, Suleman took Manmohans singhs body again and started living in rara sahib sangat as sevadar.



This is when one of those recordings was made that is on the net. This was made by balwant singh, and the transcript is also in the book.



This conversation you've heard on the recording. He seems a nice enough guy



7 months later Suleman was still there, Maharaji called him and again asked why he broke his word, Suleman said he was sorry, but wanted see Maharajis birthday before he went. Maharaji said no - the baby was ready.



Suleman replied that Mahraji could do anything, and that he could the delay the birth, Maharaji agreed.



11 months after his mother got pregnant, Suleman was born, after Maharaji refused another extension - saying it would to painful for the mother to wait any longer. He left his nishan on manmohan singh - his tongue was all spotty.



For 4 years after he was born Suleman could remember all that had happened to him - he also described what kunbi narak was like and what people had to do - some people were being burnt again and again - didnt really understand that bit coz his urdu is strange.



Theres a couple other stories about prets and how they got mukti through saptah paat, and extracts from Gurbani about pret/bhoot etc.



He described how prets possess people - 'like how tissue sticks to sweat on a body, the pret envelopes the human'. Prets are attracted to the smell given off by people who eat meat, eggs and drink alcohol, because their food is blood and meat - which they eat through animals.

 

[gjsingh]

Problems with this tall tale

- How can a ghost from the 10th century AD be speaking a language that was born no earlier than the 12th century (Urdu)?

- It is scientifically impossible that gestation is literally painful, since the nervous system isn't fully developed for the fetus. And any purported ghost wouldn't have a nervous system at all.

- Ghosts and demons don't literally exist. In Gurbani it is just metaphorical language for humankind's depraved and forgetful state:

ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਨਾਮਹੀਨ ਬੇਤਾਲ ॥
Har Kae Naameheen Baethaal ||
Without the Name of the Lord, the mortal is a ghost.

Furthermore, and this is merely my personal belief, there is no literal Dharamraj person waiting to hand out painful punishments at the end of life. It is simply a metaphor for God's infinite justice. But we will find out truth of the matter soon enough.

 

[Warriorlight]

Problems with this tall tale

- How can a ghost from the 10th century AD be speaking a language that was born no earlier than the 12th century (Urdu)?

- It is scientifically impossible that gestation is literally painful, since the nervous system isn't fully developed for the fetus. And any purported ghost wouldn't have a nervous system at all.

- Ghosts and demons don't literally exist. In Gurbani it is just metaphorical language for humankind's depraved and forgetful state:

ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਨਾਮਹੀਨ ਬੇਤਾਲ ॥
Har Kae Naameheen Baethaal ||
Without the Name of the Lord, the mortal is a ghost.

Furthermore, and this is merely my personal belief, there is no literal Dharamraj person waiting to hand out painful punishments at the end of life. It is simply a metaphor for God's infinite justice. But we will find out truth of the matter soon enough.

You're entitled to your belief, we all have freedom of choice. This Ghost in particular possessed a 10 year old boy and there were a few witnesses to it. It def doesnt sound like a 10 yr old boy in the recording. I myself have witnessed a ghost possessing a human, their voice completely changed, completely different accents, speaking about things they wouldnt be able to know about. I've also encourtered many other ghosts in my lifetime. Many other accounts of the same things all around the world.

Perhaps ghost is metaphorical language in that passage, however in other passages, Gurbani does speak of actual Ghosts and also in Dasam Granth Sahib Ji. There are also many accounts during the Gurus times of their and others encounters with Ghosts and demons.

The Gurus often speak of Dharmraj in Gurbani, he works for God in helping the creation run, in the field he serves God in. If you don't want to believe their words that there literally is an actual Dharamraj, just as there are the Gurus who still exist after their worldly bodies ended and like there is God Himself who is invisible to the eye, yet He is here and only by His grace are we breathing, living and existing, then that's up to you. I do believe that God's Khel and it's workings should be respected- it's His Hukam.

True that when you die, you'll see whether Dharamraj exists, and true that life is short.

 

[gjsingh]

You're entitled to your belief, we all have freedom of choice. This Ghost in particular possessed a 10 year old boy and there were a few witnesses to it. It def doesnt sound like a 10 yr old boy in the recording. I myself have witnessed a ghost possessing a human, their voice completely changed, completely different accents, speaking about things they wouldnt be able to know about. I've also encourtered many other ghosts in my lifetime. Many other accounts of the same things all around the world.

In one respect we can describe the Siri Guru Granth Sahib as an extended paean to the infinite power of Waheguru's hukam. Then consider for a moment that the natural laws which govern the whole universe are really nothing more than an expression of this all-powerful hukam.

If that is the case, then as a matter of religious duty, shouldn't we be skeptical when something is claimed which contradicts the normal operating of the natural laws of the universe? How can something so mighty be set aside so easily?

Moreover, the human mind and it's perceptions are very complex. This is also a part of Waheguru's hukam.

Perhaps ghost is metaphorical language in that passage, however in other passages, Gurbani does speak of actual Ghosts and also in Dasam Granth Sahib Ji.

I am not disputing that Gurbani acknowledges the existence of ghosts and demons. What I am saying is that Gurbani teaches us that those ghosts and demons are to be found in the human heart: kaam (lust), krodh (wrath), lobh (greed), moh (attachment) and ahankar (ego). Aren't these terrifying enough? Haven't they devoured a sufficient number of human souls?

ਅੰਤਰਿ ਚੋਰੁ ਮੁਹੈ ਘਰੁ ਮੰਦਰੁ ਇਨਿ ਸਾਕਤਿ ਦੂਤੁ ਨ ਜਾਤਾ ਹੇ ॥੭॥
This body-place is being plundered by the thieves, but this mammon-worshiper knows not these demons within.
ਦੁੰਦਰ ਦੂਤ ਭੂਤ ਭੀਹਾਲੇ ॥
Within the mortal are quarrelsome, evil and dreadful goblins.

https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=1031&g=1&h=0&r=0&t=2&p=0&k=0

There are also many accounts during the Gurus times of their and others encounters with Ghosts and demons.

If the authentic janamsakhis talk about ghosts and demons, then it is simply an allegory for the power of the Guru's message to dispel ignorance and superstition.

The Gurus often speak of Dharmraj in Gurbani, he works for God in helping the creation run, in the field he serves God in.

Let's analyze this word Dharamraj into it's constituent parts. Dharam means the sustaining principle of the entire universe: creating, preserving, and destroying as it sees fit. Raj refers to the absolute sovereignty the aforementioned principle. Then what else could this be but Waheguru's hukam?

It is perfectly understandable that the unprepared sinner would be terrified by the consequences of this awesome reality after death. So I think the Gurus were merciful to communicate this warning with the easy-to-grasp allegory of a stern king and his court.

 

[Warriorlight]

In one respect we can describe the Siri Guru Granth Sahib as an extended paean to the infinite power of Waheguru's hukam. Then consider for a moment that the natural laws which govern the whole universe are really nothing more than an expression of this all-powerful hukam.

If that is the case, then as a matter of religious duty, shouldn't we be skeptical when something is claimed which contradicts the normal operating of the natural laws of the universe? How can something so mighty be set aside so easily?

Moreover, the human mind and it's perceptions are very complex. This is also a part of Waheguru's hukam.


I am not disputing that Gurbani acknowledges the existence of ghosts and demons. What I am saying is that Gurbani teaches us that those ghosts and demons are to be found in the human heart: kaam (lust), krodh (wrath), lobh (greed), moh (attachment) and ahankar (ego). Aren't these terrifying enough? Haven't they devoured a sufficient number of human souls?

ਅੰਤਰਿ ਚੋਰੁ ਮੁਹੈ ਘਰੁ ਮੰਦਰੁ ਇਨਿ ਸਾਕਤਿ ਦੂਤੁ ਨ ਜਾਤਾ ਹੇ ॥੭॥
This body-place is being plundered by the thieves, but this mammon-worshiper knows not these demons within.
ਦੁੰਦਰ ਦੂਤ ਭੂਤ ਭੀਹਾਲੇ ॥
Within the mortal are quarrelsome, evil and dreadful goblins.

https://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=1031&g=1&h=0&r=0&t=2&p=0&k=0

If the authentic janamsakhis talk about ghosts and demons, then it is simply an allegory for the power of the Guru's message to dispel ignorance and superstition.


Let's analyze this word Dharamraj into it's constituent parts. Dharam means the sustaining principle of the entire universe: creating, preserving, and destroying as it sees fit. Raj refers to the absolute sovereignty the aforementioned principle. Then what else could this be but Waheguru's hukam?

It is perfectly understandable that the unprepared sinner would be terrified by the consequences of this awesome reality after death. So I think the Gurus were merciful to communicate this warning with the easy-to-grasp allegory of a stern king and his court.

Hello Ji.

If that is the case, then as a matter of religious duty, shouldn't we be skeptical when something is claimed which contradicts the normal operating of the natural laws of the universe? How can something so mighty be set aside so easily?

It depends on what you mean by the natural laws of the universe.

If the authentic janamsakhis talk about ghosts and demons, then it is simply an allegory for the power of the Guru's message to dispel ignorance and superstition.

Oh no, some of the Gurus and people of the times did encounter actual ghosts and demons. The stories are clear as are the many accounts from our current times as well as my own personal experiences.

I am not disputing that Gurbani acknowledges the existence of ghosts and demons. What I am saying is that Gurbani teaches us that those ghosts and demons are to be found in the human heart: kaam (lust), krodh (wrath), lobh (greed), moh (attachment) and ahankar (ego). Aren't these terrifying enough? Haven't they devoured a sufficient number of human souls?

Sure they have Ji. Speaking from the persepective of Truth, reality has formed from the mind of God- the reality is that there is no image, color, form- everything we see is an illusion. However this is God's Khel that He has created. We do have inner demons and there are also demons and ghosts without in the Khel. I would say that Humans can also most certaintly be demons- one only has to switch on the news to see stories of many people who have chosen the demonic path of murder, abuses etc- hence they've become demons in human form. Ghosts are humans like you or I who have passed on. It's nothing crazy, it's just what happens sometimes.

Let's analyze this word Dharamraj into it's constituent parts. Dharam means the sustaining principle of the entire universe: creating, preserving, and destroying as it sees fit. Raj refers to the absolute sovereignty the aforementioned principle. Then what else could this be but Waheguru's hukam?

It is perfectly understandable that the unprepared sinner would be terrified by the consequences of this awesome reality after death. So I think the Gurus were merciful to communicate this warning with the easy-to-grasp allegory of a stern king and his court.

The existance of Dharamraj, who serves in his role that Waheguru has blessed him with, IS Gods Hukam. Just as as we are God's hukam, we exist only due to His will as does His khel which He has created out of His love for us.

 

[gjsingh]

It depends on what you mean by the natural laws of the universe.

I'm talking about the ordinary reality that composes space-time, that can be measured by the senses and recorded by scientific instruments. If I drop a ball from table height it falls to the ground every time. The ball takes up space. It reliably interacts with other objects in expected ways. All this is according to Waheguru's hukam.

Suleman is not included in this because he doesn't follow the natural laws of Waheguru. He eats blood and filth but he doesn't have a stomach because he doesn't have a body. How can an immaterial object interact with material reality? What happens to his food? Does it disappear from the material universe? Then this violates the Law of Conservation of Energy, which is Waheguru's hukam.

Likewise, Suleman speaks a language that didn't exist when he was alive. He must have learned it after death. But by what instrument did this occur? He doesn't have a brain. Waheguru took it away from him at the prescribed time.

Suppose on the contrary, that Suleman does have a material body, but it is just in some highly sublimated form, which interacts with other objects in a way that can't be discerned in the ordinary way by scientific instruments. Then this also violates Waheguru's hukam, because it suspends the normal operating principles of those same natural laws.

I'm not saying Waheguru could not have willed something impossible to happen if He wanted to. I'm saying that all else being equal, Waheguru does not do this. Therefore, out of religious respect we should be skeptical, and seek for an alternative explanation that is in accordance with Waheguru's all-powerful hukam. There are several possibilities.

 

[Warriorlight]

I'm talking about the ordinary reality that composes space-time, that can be measured by the senses and recorded by scientific instruments. If I drop a ball from table height it falls to the ground every time. The ball takes up space. It reliably interacts with other objects in expected ways. All this is according to Waheguru's hukam.

Suleman is not included in this because he doesn't follow the natural laws of Waheguru. He eats blood and filth but he doesn't have a stomach because he doesn't have a body. How can an immaterial object interact with material reality? What happens to his food? Does it disappear from the material universe? Then this violates the Law of Conservation of Energy, which is Waheguru's hukam.

Likewise, Suleman speaks a language that didn't exist when he was alive. He must have learned it after death. But by what instrument did this occur? He doesn't have a brain. Waheguru took it away from him at the prescribed time.

Suppose on the contrary, that Suleman does have a material body, but it is just in some highly sublimated form, which interacts with other objects in a way that can't be discerned in the ordinary way by scientific instruments. Then this also violates Waheguru's hukam, because it suspends the normal operating principles of those same natural laws.

I'm not saying Waheguru could not have willed something impossible to happen if He wanted to. I'm saying that all else being equal, Waheguru does not do this. Therefore, out of religious respect we should be skeptical, and seek for an alternative explanation that is in accordance with Waheguru's all-powerful hukam. There are several possibilities.

You speak from wordly knowledge my friend, and worldly knowledge has no place in Puran Sat. Science was created From the primal void, the Nothingness. God is Truth, no colour, no form etc- He has literally made the Universe from Nothing and can turn a moutain into a diamond if He wants to, He can turn you into an insect in an instant. You are neglecting all the stories about Shaheed Singhs from Sachkand that many Bhagats with high avastha have been blessed with darshan of, aswell as Sachkandh and other realms and the Gurus themselves who are alive and present in the Universe today.

Your logic literally has no place in Sikhi- worldly science itself is the Creation of God- not the other way around my friend. In other realms, there are things we humans would not believe- this is a test world, a khel (illusion). Even the earth realm itself is not forever, Gurbani says when God expands the Creation from Himself He will, and when he wants to bring it back into Himself, He Will.

 

[gjsingh]

We are in agreement that Waheguru has the power to make a diamond out of a mountain. I think I made that point clearly enough.

We differ only in that I am asserting that we should be very cautious if somebody claims to be able to ride that power like a donkey, directing it as they wish.

But that is precisely what these sadhus and babas are claiming to do with their occult parlor tricks! What could be more 'worldly' than that?

Your logic literally has no place in Sikhi

Are you quite sure that logic has no place in Sikhi? Gurbani commands us to use our reasoning ability:

ਪਹਿਲਾ ਵਸਤੁ ਸਿਞਾਣਿ ਕੈ ਤਾਂ ਕੀਚੈ ਵਾਪਾਰੁ ॥
First, examine the merchandise, and then, make the deal. (SGGS, 1410)

And per Gurbani, our reasoning ability comes from Waheguru and He bestowed it upon us as the vehicle for arriving at knowledge of Him:

ਬਿਬੇਕ ਬੁਧਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਪਾਈ ਗੁਰ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੇਰਾ ॥
The discriminating intellect, I have obtained from the True Guru and true is the gnosis revealed by the Divine Guru. (SGGS, 711)

To me, this is not so strange, we are called students after all.

worldly science itself is the Creation of God

Not directly. Science is just the body of knowledge that humans have created over time in order to better understand God's omnipotent hukam. But God doesn't require anything to know Himself. Science is for our benefit, not his.

However, scientific knowledge is limited, contingent, and subject to change based on new evidence. It is meant as a complement to revelation in the form of Gurbani, which is absolute and unchangingly true:

ਭੁਲਣ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਅਭੁਲੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਕਰਤਾਰੁ ॥
All are apt to commit an error. The Guru and the Creator alone are infallible. (SGGS, 61)

Consequently, it is not empirical knowledge per se that should motivate our skepticism of wonder-workers and tall tales. Rather it is Gurbani's exposition of God's all-powerful hukam and how it manifests itself in the operation of the natural laws of the universe:

ਕਰਣ ਕਾਰਣ ਸਭਸੈ ਸਿਰਿ ਤੋਹੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Thou, O Lord, art the Cause of all causes, and thy order is over the head of all. Pause. (SGGS, 413)

The reliability and predictive ability of the scientific method are merely a confirmation of that marvelous power:

ਜੈਸਾ ਸਾ ਤੈਸਾ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਾਇਆ ॥
As God is, so does He appear;

ਅਪੁਨੇ ਕਾਰਜ ਮਹਿ ਆਪਿ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥
in His Own creation, He Himself is pervading.

ਸੋਧਤ ਸੋਧਤ ਸੋਧਤ ਸੀਝਿਆ ॥
Searching, searching, searching, and finally, success!

ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਤਤੁ ਸਭੁ ਬੂਝਿਆ ॥
By Guru’s Grace, the essence of all reality is understood.

ਜਬ ਦੇਖਉ ਤਬ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਮੂਲੁ ॥
Wherever I look, there I see Him, at the root of all things. (SGGS, 281)

this is a test world, a khel (illusion).

Wouldn't this be reason to doubt ostentatious displays of supernatural power?

 

[Warriorlight]

We are in agreement that Waheguru has the power to make a diamond out of a mountain. I think I made that point clearly enough.

We differ only in that I am asserting that we should be very cautious if somebody claims to be able to ride that power like a donkey, directing it as they wish.

But that is precisely what these sadhus and babas are claiming to do with their occult parlor tricks! What could be more 'worldly' than that?



Are you quite sure that logic has no place in Sikhi? Gurbani commands us to use our reasoning ability:

ਪਹਿਲਾ ਵਸਤੁ ਸਿਞਾਣਿ ਕੈ ਤਾਂ ਕੀਚੈ ਵਾਪਾਰੁ ॥
First, examine the merchandise, and then, make the deal. (SGGS, 1410)

And per Gurbani, our reasoning ability comes from Waheguru and He bestowed it upon us as the vehicle for arriving at knowledge of Him:

ਬਿਬੇਕ ਬੁਧਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਪਾਈ ਗੁਰ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੇਰਾ ॥
The discriminating intellect, I have obtained from the True Guru and true is the gnosis revealed by the Divine Guru. (SGGS, 711)

To me, this is not so strange, we are called students after all.




Not directly. Science is just the body of knowledge that humans have created over time in order to better understand God's omnipotent hukam. But God doesn't require anything to know Himself. Science is for our benefit, not his.

However, scientific knowledge is limited, contingent, and subject to change based on new evidence. It is meant as a complement to revelation in the form of Gurbani, which is absolute and unchangingly true:

ਭੁਲਣ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਸਭੁ ਕੋ ਅਭੁਲੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਕਰਤਾਰੁ ॥
All are apt to commit an error. The Guru and the Creator alone are infallible. (SGGS, 61)

Consequently, it is not empirical knowledge per se that should motivate our skepticism of wonder-workers and tall tales. Rather it is Gurbani's exposition of God's all-powerful hukam and how it manifests itself in the operation of the natural laws of the universe:

ਕਰਣ ਕਾਰਣ ਸਭਸੈ ਸਿਰਿ ਤੋਹੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Thou, O Lord, art the Cause of all causes, and thy order is over the head of all. Pause. (SGGS, 413)

The reliability and predictive ability of the scientific method are merely a confirmation of that marvelous power:

ਜੈਸਾ ਸਾ ਤੈਸਾ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਾਇਆ ॥
As God is, so does He appear;

ਅਪੁਨੇ ਕਾਰਜ ਮਹਿ ਆਪਿ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥
in His Own creation, He Himself is pervading.

ਸੋਧਤ ਸੋਧਤ ਸੋਧਤ ਸੀਝਿਆ ॥
Searching, searching, searching, and finally, success!

ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਤਤੁ ਸਭੁ ਬੂਝਿਆ ॥
By Guru’s Grace, the essence of all reality is understood.

ਜਬ ਦੇਖਉ ਤਬ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਮੂਲੁ ॥
Wherever I look, there I see Him, at the root of all things. (SGGS, 281)



Wouldn't this be reason to doubt ostentatious displays of supernatural power?

The Gurus never said occult powers dont exist and that people don't use them. To the contrary there are many accounts of people using occult powers during the Gurus times. If they could use them back then, they can use them now.

Furthermore, there is a difference between using powers randomly and using them according to the will and Hukam of God, which is what Sants are able to do. That power is God working through them- no other power compares to that and it is Unlimited like God Himself. I don't question a genuine Sant using power as that power is used by the will of God and with God Himself working through the Sant.

When everything has come from and continues to come from nothing, your arguments around science are irrelevant. Nothing actually exists, the Gurus teach that this world is an Illusion, hence science is an illusion. Only God/ Truth remains. That's all i'll say on that matter.

 

[gjsingh]

The Gurus never said occult powers dont exist and that people don't use them. To the contrary there are many accounts of people using occult powers during the Gurus times. If they could use them back then, they can use them now.

So sayeth certain janamsakhis of unknown or shaky provenance.

Typically the story goes that the bearer of said powers is an evil person who attempts to use them against the Guru, and fails miserably.

The symbolism and metaphor is obvious. It is precisely that humans are powerless against the will of God, in this particular case, in the form of the Guru.

Nevertheless in the final analysis it is the Siri Guru Granth Sahib that is the final authority, not old stories.

Furthermore, there is a difference between using powers randomly and using them according to the will and Hukam of God, which is what Sants are able to do. That power is God working through them- no other power compares to that and it is Unlimited like God Himself. I don't question a genuine Sant using power as that power is used by the will of God and with God Himself working through the Sant.

Most babas in Guru's day and most babas today are charlatans, I think it is reasonable to proceed accordingly.

When everything has come from and continues to come from nothing, your arguments around science are irrelevant. Nothing actually exists, the Gurus teach that this world is an Illusion, hence science is an illusion. Only God/ Truth remains. That's all i'll say on that matter.

I believe it was Patanjali, or maybe one of the Greeks, who relates the anecdote of the two philosophers. Philosopher A holds to a theory that the world is nothing but an illusion. Philosopher B is a staunch materialist. They are walking down a path when a rampaging elephant comes running from the other direction. They both get out of the way!

 

[Warriorlight]

Typically the story goes that the bearer of said powers is an evil person who attempts to use them against the Guru, and fails miserably.

The symbolism and metaphor is obvious. It is precisely that humans are powerless against the will of God, in this particular case, in the form of the Guru.

Are you an athiest or something? Gurbani literally talks about Ridhi Sidhis too. So you can accept westerners history about who built their churches in the 1600's but can't believe real stories about the Gurus from those periods?

Most babas in Guru's day and most babas today are charlatans, I think it is reasonable to proceed accordingly.

Saying ALL Sants in recent times is foolish and makes you a slanderer of at least a few Sants, I would tread carefully and do your thorough research first.

I believe it was Patanjali, or maybe one of the Greeks, who relates the anecdote of the two philosophers. Philosopher A holds to a theory that the world is nothing but an illusion. Philosopher B is a staunch materialist. They are walking down a path when a rampaging elephant comes running from the other direction. They both get out of the way!

I don't care about 2nd century Patanjalis words who you seem to believe and put above more than our Gurus own words or accounts of their lives or some random Greek person, I don't believe those stories you tell me- I believe the Gurus and their life stories not your teachers. If my Guru says this world is an illusion then its an illusion. I cannot converse with you anymore as you seem to have an athiest view and disrespect of the Gurus. Goodbye.

 

[gjsingh]

OK, fare thee well.

Summing up, Sikhi is a rational faith, ghosts and demons live in the human heart, most babas are frauds, and Akal Purakh's hukam is all-powerful.

Personally I think this Isher Singh simply directed his chela to pretend to be a ghost, so that the "ghost" could make the absurd and tawdry claim that baba is on the same level as Guru Nanak Ji. To me, that is what really scandalous disrespect looks like.

Final note with regards to old stories, the most prevalent janamsakhi Baba Bale Vali Janamsakhi was possibly adulterated or composed outright by heretical Minas. It should be treated with caution as well:

According to the author, he was a close companion of Guru Nanak and accompanied him on many of his travels.

There are good reasons to doubt this contention:

• Guru Angad, who is said to have commissioned the work and was also a close companion of the Guru in his later years, was, according to Bala's own admission, ignorant of the existence of Bala.
• Bhai Gurdas, who has listed all Guru Nanak's prominent disciples whose names were handed down, does not mention the name of Bala Sandhu. (This may be an oversight, for he does not mention Rai Bular either.)

Bhai Mani Singh's Bhagat Ratanwali, which contains essentialy the same list as that by Bhai Gurdas, but with more detail, also does not mention Bala Sandhu.

• It is only in the heretic janamsakhis of the Minas that we find first mention of Bhai Bala.
• The language used in this janamsakhi was not spoken at the time of Guru Nanak or Guru Angad, but was developed at least a hundred years later.

Some of the hymns ascribed to Nanak are not his but those of the second and fifth Gurus.

• At several places expressions which gained currency only during the lifetime of the last Guru, Guru Gobind Singh (1666-1708), are used e.g Waheguru ji ki Fateh. Bala's janamsakhi is certainly not a contemporary account; at best it was written in the early part of the 18th Century.

Most scholars and Gursikhs now agree there is no prove to his existence. Most historians agree that “Bhai Bala Janamsakhi” is the work of Hindalias (also known as Niranjanias), who were the bitter enemies of Sikhs. There are several flaws in his version of Janam Sakhi about Sri Guru Nakan Dev Ji which he claims that Sri Guru Angad Dev Ji asked him to write.

1. Bhai Bala never existed. He was a fictious character pushed into our history to destroy us.
2. The name of Bhai Bala is not mentioned in other Janamsakhis (biographies).
3. In his Janam Sakhi, he clamis that Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji was a great Hindu, but lower in spirituality than Bhagat Kabir and Baba Hundal. Also he tries to prove that Guru Nanak Dev Ji did not come to the world to liberate the world, but because of his own karma and liberate himself. There are countless other anti-gurmat sakhis and things written in his janam sakhi that are hard to believe.
4. The language of this Janam Sakhi is very modern and is not of the period of Sri Guru Angad Dev Ji, which proves that someone wrote this Sakhi long after by creating a fictious charactyer, Bala and linked him with Guru Arjan Dev Ji and Guru Nanak Dev Ji's companion.
5. In that Sakhi, Bala also writes that whatever he is writing is all truth becuase all the things he is writing he has seen them with his eyes because he was with Guru Nanak Dev Ji ALL the time, which is totally wrong, becuase if that were true then why didn't Bhai Gurdas Ji mention his name in his Baani. Bhai Sahib mentioned only Bhai Mardana as Guru Nanak Dev Ji's companion.
6. In Bhai Gurdas's eleventh var, the names of all the known Sikhs up to that time have been mentioned but there is no direct reference to the name Bala.
7. Bhai Mani Singh has, in his Bhagat Ratnawali, repeated nearly the same list but Bhai Bala, who could have narrated the Janam Sakhi as such, does not exist there either. There are a number of other anomalies, which Dr.Kirpal Singh has explicated in his Punjabi work `Janam Sakhi Parampara.'
8. Handalis sect played a very active role along with other Hindus in the extermination of Sikhs during the time of Zakria Khan and his minister Lakhpat Rai. Therefore, Bhai Bala was either a member of the Hindalia sect, or a fictitious character, not a companion of Guru Nanak as claimed by Lal.
9. Bala Janam-Sakhi denigrates Guru Nanak and his family and friends. In his analysis of this janam-sakhi, Professor Surjit Hans writes:
   The first clue to grasping the true character of the Bala Janamsakhi is the fact that the persons related most closely to Guru Nanak are presented in uncomplimentary light. His father, Kalu, for instance, is a cruel man; he is greedy and ill spoken; he blames Mardana for spoiling his son; and Guru Nanak is rather chary of meeting him. Guru Nanak’s wife regrets marrying him, she is hot-tempered and full of anger. His mother-in-law is quarrelsome and hardhearted. His father-in-law curses his fate to have a son-in-law like Guru Nanak. The Guru’s constant companion, Mardana, is pleased with counterfeit coins and cast off clothes; he is all the time hungry.

The Bala Janamsakhi has never even CLAIMED to be divine revelation by any Sikh. Serious doubt has been cast on this work and the research some may present is that which Sikh scholars themselves have tabled. This Janamsakhi isn’t and has never been read in Sikh congregations.

Bhai Bala Janamsakhi - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia.

www.sikhiwiki.org

 

[Warriorlight]

OK, fare thee well.

Summing up, Sikhi is a rational faith, ghosts and demons live in the human heart, most babas are frauds, and Akal Purakh's hukam is all-powerful.

Personally I think this Isher Singh simply directed his chela to pretend to be a ghost, so that the "ghost" could make the absurd and tawdry claim that baba is on the same level as Guru Nanak Ji. To me, that is what really scandalous disrespect looks like.

Final note with regards to old stories, the most prevalent janamsakhi Baba Bale Vali Janamsakhi was possibly adulterated or composed outright by heretical Minas. It should be treated with caution as well:

Bhai Bala Janamsakhi - SikhiWiki, free Sikh encyclopedia.

www.sikhiwiki.org

I literally don't care what you think. Don't message me on here thanks.