Opinion Let Talk 'original' Sikhi & The Blind Studying Vision

[Original]

Gents - good morning !

Let's talk "original" Sikhi. The Sikhi that Nanak inspired and practiced where truth, beauty and goodness resided. Not your twenty first century "progressive" model advanced by new kids on the block [SPN]. Sorry, but their versions have an extremely short attention span and ponders to only a very narrow demographics within western socities. You can't understand the present without knowledge of its past, can you ? No !. So it is with Sikh Faith, you have to have knowledge of its historical past, tradition, custom and culture to fully understand and appreciate its genesis. Question is: who at SPN professes to have that knowledge ? No one ! If that'd be correct, then does it really matter who or what gets debated and discussed when both the conclusions and intermediate steps are made up of the "unknown" by the unknowns. How can the resulting consistency ever by any manner of means become true knowledge ? Debating and discussing Sikh tenets with those that have no knowledge or limited knowledge is like the blind studying vision. They can hear, but they can't see and what they can't see they can't perceive, what they can't perceive they can't conceive and what they can't conceive have no existence for that very reason.

Let us move to the thread at hand :

For example, SPN has been advocating, since inception, to discuss full shabds in Guru Granth Sahib to derive the real meaning of the shabd while corroborating our statements in a discussion but hardly anyone follows it... Some of the senior respected members ignore this rule blatantly on this forum but it does not make it right.

Aman Singh Ji, first n foremost, should we not first define what constitutes a shabd ? I think we should.

By definition a shabd is sound. This sound is captured by symbols called letters [akkhar in punjabi]. These letters are enjoined to make a word. A word is also called a shabd in Gurmukhi. The words are strung together to make a sentence and sentences make paragraphs and so on. And since, Gurbani is written in Poetic Form, the poetic configurations of a shabd vary between "one" liner tuks to "eight" liner asthpadis [8 line stanzas]. What shabd might you have been advocating, please explain ?

..speak soon

 

[Harry Haller]

Let's talk "original" Sikhi.

you mean your opinion of Sikhism above anyone else's?

The Sikhi that Nanak inspired and practiced where truth, beauty and goodness resided

so far so good

Not your twenty first century "progressive" model advanced by new kids on the block [SPN].

Can you tell me me where this model exists? Sure there are SPN members that disagree with you, but SPN itself is an independent platform devoid of any agenda. Are you suggesting that SPN has a hand in altering. editing or deleting posts that do not confirm to its so called agenda of being progressive?

Sorry, but their versions have an extremely short attention span and ponders to only a very narrow demographics within western socities.

sorry, which versions? Can you show me where SPN itself has posted any versions of anything? Surely SPN is the sum of its members, that is how I see it anyway.

You can't understand the present without knowledge of its past, can you ? No !. So it is with Sikh Faith, you have to have knowledge of its historical past, tradition, custom and culture to fully understand and appreciate its genesis

well that is why writers like yourself post, your knowledge on the above is always welcome

Question is: who at SPN professes to have that knowledge ?

err you?

No one !

err you?

If that'd be correct, then does it really matter who or what gets debated and discussed when both the conclusions and intermediate steps are made up of the "unknown" by the unknowns

well, no, not really, by the named members, like you and me

How can the resulting consistency ever by any manner of means become true knowledge ?

I do not think this forum ever existed to provide true knowledge, it exists as a platform for discussion, nothing more

Debating and discussing Sikh tenets with those that have no knowledge or limited knowledge is like the blind studying vision

I could say that discussing Sikh tenents with those that have the wrong knowledge and believe it to be the right knowledge is possibly worse. At least with no knowledge and limited knowledge common sense still exists, open minds still exists, the ability to grasp intellectual arguments still exist, however those convinced they have the answers and those that feel they have a divine responsibility to enforce that on the rest of us do not seem as open, and intellectual arguments tend not to take place, it seems to go down the path of student and teacher, rather than equal discussion. I did not join this forum to be lectured to, by anyone, I came here for discussion, it is hard to discuss something with someone that feels they are 100% correct.

They can hear, but they can't see and what they can't see they can't perceive, what they can't perceive they can't conceive and what they can't conceive have no existence for that very reason.

yes, its called an emperor with no clothes, I am all for that, but both ways, not just your way.

By definition a shabd is sound. This sound is captured by symbols called letters [akkhar in punjabi]. These letters are enjoined to make a word. A word is also called a shabd in Gurmukhi. The words are strung together to make a sentence and sentences make paragraphs and so on. And since, Gurbani is written in Poetic Form, the poetic configurations of a shabd vary between "one" liner tuks to "eight" liner asthpadis [8 line stanzas]. What shabd might you have been advocating, please explain ?

probably enough so that the single line is not distorted, enough background to give a single line some definition and to show it in context, I don't think it is asking much and I am surprised that you cannot see how dangerous and pointless it is to do otherwise

 

[Harry Haller]

Debating and discussing Sikh tenets with those that have no knowledge or limited knowledge is like the blind studying vision.

I actually love this quote, because thinking about it, we are pretty much all the blind studying vision, that is why it is so hard, so ambiguous, so many paths, so many theories, thoughts, directions, we are all as blind, I tend to feel that anyone with a 100% view on Sikhism is a bit more blind, as they have given up on the study of vision. The truth is, we don't know, none of us, what the truth is, what do you think Originaji, or do you know the truth?

 

[Balbir27]

Debating and discussing Sikh tenets with those that have no knowledge or limited knowledge is like the blind studying vision. They can hear, but they can't see and what they can't see they can't perceive, what they can't perceive they can't conceive and what they can't conceive have no existence for that very reason.

I have a problem with that. Does any one else?

Firstly, it is only the congenitally blind people [CBP] who will have no perception about colour, depth or the shape of anything whatsoever - simply because they have never seen anything.

Secondly, these people have the ability to listen, feel, smell, hear, taste etc., which forms a map in their minds about the world out there. Their intellect is not impaired.

Thirdly, some of the CBP , have achieved something which most of us with fully seeing eyes, have not been able to. Take Stevie Wonder for example - he was a CBP. Yet he made music which is universally acclaimed (I just called to say I love you, melts my heart, does it not yours?)

Fourthly, if these blind persons could not see, it does not stop them from perceiving thoughts and conceiving answers. Right? Or wrong? Look at David Blunkett (forget the politics). He was a CBP. Yet he rose to be Education and Employment Secretary, Home Secretary and Work and Pensions Secretary, following a certain political party's victory in 1997, in the UK. I do not need to state here the eulogies he received in his career and lifetime. And, Aman Singh Ji, Wikis are a source, many times, of facts. I do not need to cite any other in the current thought.

So, finally, I cannot see, why a blind person cannot come up with an answer. Can you?

Sat Sri Akal

 

[Original]

Gents I love you All - but guess what ? Aman has taken my fancy with this wicked title: Let's Talk 'original' Sikhi & The Blind Studying Vision ! too cool for words n I'm having a chuckle coz It's been taken out of context. It's an idiom I use to show the effectiveness of brevity over verbosity in militating the case in point when it comes to educating the young n beautiful wannabe Sikhs.

More when I have time, but for now, I want to leave something for you guys to chew on:

Nanak says:

ਸਖੀਹੋ ਸਹੇਲੜੀਹੋ ਮੇਰਾ ਪਿਰੁ ਵਣਜਾਰਾ ਰਾਮ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੋੁ ਵਣੰਜੜਿਆ ਰਸਿ ਮੋਲਿ ਅਪਾਰਾ ਰਾਮ ॥ ਮੋਲਿ ਅਮੋਲੋ ਸਚ ਘਰਿ ਢੋਲੋ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਾ ਮੁੰਧ ਭਲੀ ॥ ਇਕਿ ਸੰਗਿ ਹਰਿ ਕੈ ਕਰਹਿ ਰਲੀਆ ਹਉ ਪੁਕਾਰੀ ਦਰਿ ਖਲੀ ॥ ਕਰਣ ਕਾਰਣ ਸਮਰਥ ਸ੍ਰੀਧਰ ਆਪਿ ਕਾਰਜੁ ਸਾਰਏ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਦਰੀ ਧਨ ਸੋਹਾਗਣਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਅਭ ਸਾਧਾਰਏ ॥੩॥ ਹਮ ਘਰਿ ਸਾਚਾ ਸੋਹਿਲੜਾ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਆਇਅੜੇ ਮੀਤਾ ਰਾਮ ॥ ਰਾਵੇ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਾਤੜਿਆ ਮਨੁ ਲੀਅੜਾ ਦੀਤਾ ਰਾਮ ॥ ਆਪਣਾ ਮਨੁ ਦੀਆ ਹਰਿ ਵਰੁ ਲੀਆ ਜਿਉ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਉ ਰਾਵਏ ॥ ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਪਿਰ ਆਗੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਭਾਗੈ ਘਰਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਫਲੁ ਪਾਵਏ ॥ ਬੁਧਿ ਪਾਠਿ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ਬਹੁ ਚਤੁਰਾਈਐ ਭਾਇ ਮਿਲੈ ਮਨਿ ਭਾਣੇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਮੀਤ ਹਮਾਰੇ ਹਮ ਨਾਹੀ ਲੋਕਾਣੇ ॥੪॥੧॥ SGGSJ, 436


*I've translated the juicy bit [bold, above] as:

Waheguru is not accessible through intellect, or through mere scholarship or cleverness at argument [empercal observation n rationality cannot capture such metaphysical phenomena] Waheguru can be had, met, realised and experienced only through devotion by His own grace [Gurprasad].

Now if that'd be correct then what is required is not proof or evidence but belief. And it is belief that constitutes Faith. And gentlemen, Sikh is Faith.


*pls get your own translation from elsewhere to avoid interest of conflict.

Goodnight

Ps I'm conscious of the festivities lined up for me and might not respond in time, pls excuse my away days !

 

[Harry Haller]

Gents I love you All - but guess what ? Aman has taken my fancy with this wicked title: Let's Talk 'original' Sikhi & The Blind Studying Vision ! too cool for words n I'm having a chuckle coz It's been taken out of context. It's an idiom I use to show the effectiveness of brevity over verbosity in militating the case in point when it comes to educating the young n beautiful wannabe Sikhs.

More when I have time, but for now, I want to leave something for you guys to chew on:

Nanak says:

ਸਖੀਹੋ ਸਹੇਲੜੀਹੋ ਮੇਰਾ ਪਿਰੁ ਵਣਜਾਰਾ ਰਾਮ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੋੁ ਵਣੰਜੜਿਆ ਰਸਿ ਮੋਲਿ ਅਪਾਰਾ ਰਾਮ ॥ ਮੋਲਿ ਅਮੋਲੋ ਸਚ ਘਰਿ ਢੋਲੋ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਾ ਮੁੰਧ ਭਲੀ ॥ ਇਕਿ ਸੰਗਿ ਹਰਿ ਕੈ ਕਰਹਿ ਰਲੀਆ ਹਉ ਪੁਕਾਰੀ ਦਰਿ ਖਲੀ ॥ ਕਰਣ ਕਾਰਣ ਸਮਰਥ ਸ੍ਰੀਧਰ ਆਪਿ ਕਾਰਜੁ ਸਾਰਏ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਦਰੀ ਧਨ ਸੋਹਾਗਣਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਅਭ ਸਾਧਾਰਏ ॥੩॥ ਹਮ ਘਰਿ ਸਾਚਾ ਸੋਹਿਲੜਾ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਆਇਅੜੇ ਮੀਤਾ ਰਾਮ ॥ ਰਾਵੇ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਾਤੜਿਆ ਮਨੁ ਲੀਅੜਾ ਦੀਤਾ ਰਾਮ ॥ ਆਪਣਾ ਮਨੁ ਦੀਆ ਹਰਿ ਵਰੁ ਲੀਆ ਜਿਉ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਉ ਰਾਵਏ ॥ ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਪਿਰ ਆਗੈ ਸਬਦਿ ਸਭਾਗੈ ਘਰਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਫਲੁ ਪਾਵਏ ॥ ਬੁਧਿ ਪਾਠਿ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ਬਹੁ ਚਤੁਰਾਈਐ ਭਾਇ ਮਿਲੈ ਮਨਿ ਭਾਣੇ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਮੀਤ ਹਮਾਰੇ ਹਮ ਨਾਹੀ ਲੋਕਾਣੇ ॥੪॥੧॥ SGGSJ, 436


*I've translated the juicy bit [bold, above] as:

Waheguru is not accessible through intellect, or through mere scholarship or cleverness at argument [empercal observation n rationality cannot capture such metaphysical phenomena] Waheguru can be had, met, realised and experienced only through devotion by His own grace [Gurprasad].

Now if that'd be correct then what is required is not proof or evidence but belief. And it is belief that constitutes Faith. And gentlemen, Sikh is Faith.


*pls get your own translation from elsewhere to avoid interest of conflict.

Goodnight

Ps I'm conscious of the festivities lined up for me and might not respond in time, pls excuse my away days !

thank you for a generic answer that could have been used to answer a thousand questions,

 

[chazSingh]

Personally, i went through years of studying and reading books, asking questions on forums...etc...this is because i have some belief and yearning because i will not accept what my senses perceive as the full story/picture...

but non of this studying ever stopped that yearning...in fact it screwed my mind, especially these forums...opinion after opinion... if someone agreed with me...yes great...felt good...but so what...what have i actually learned? nothing.... spiritual sadness still existed...yearning becoming more unbearable...

One think that remained constant in Gurbani was the direction to look at (inside)...in order to start 'knowing' 'breathing' and 'immersing' in the truth...the living truth... this is the direction...a body of x-y coordinates containing something that is beyond x-y coordinates...a body containing something that cannot be contained...

This is where the true pilgrimage started... yes i am falling off the path sadly on a very regular basis, but when i close my eyes at night the light still shines bright...it gives me solace that even though i forget Him, He doesn't forget me...

I can share all my experiences with everyone...but will that help? they are just more stories...some will believe, other won't... and the ones who believe...what does it do for them...they're just stories...Nanaks inspired path is to look in the right direction...and once your pilgrimage unfolds...try to inspire others to look in the right direction...

If we're facing away from the lighthouse...do we know it's there? no....well actually we might get a glimpse through a reflection (creation)?) but to really see it and behold it...we need to face it...and walk towards it.

While i like forums, they can be destructive... I had a message from Sikhawareness Forum...they are having similar issues of Sangat moving away from it...and it's mostly due to quarreling and arguing...

All we need to do is start looking in the right direction...and then guess what, we'll be sharing so many amazing things with each other...inspiring each other...picking up those that are falling...etc etc...

 

[Balbir27]

Question is: who at SPN professes to have that knowledge ? No one !

I am now completely disillusioned with posts and posters on SPN. My spirit says so.

Maybe it is time to move on. I am most unhappy here.

I feel I do not have to participate in SPN to move on because, every single day, I am moved on, by nature -

When the first snowfall hit my part of the world, recently, roads were inaccessible and nature was presented with difficulties. So I trudged through whatever and got some birdseed.
Coming home, I filled the bird feeding jig and hung it up on a nearby tree.

So, naturally, I wished to see if the birds would eat the seeds (Ego).

Not long after, I saw some birds coming down and taking the seeds (Happiness).

The first thought which came to my mind was - they are eating our seeds (Ego).

The second thought which came to my mind was - it is not our seeds, but God's (destruction of some part of Ego).

So, the thought which was finally articulated out of my mouth (to my wife) was - Look, they are eating the seeds (Truth).

The realisation for me was - God always provides for God's creations. God has set Bhandaars (Storehouses) at every place of God's creation (on this Earth and elsewhere) and these Storehouses are never empty regardless of however much is taken out of them.

Who am I, but a slave, a worm, the lowest of worms who would be happy for the dust of the feet of God's beloved.

I shall move on to seek this dust.

Sat Sri Akal.

 

[Original]

Balbir

Sorry to hear your unhappy at SPN, but look, I said what I said in a context that was both substantive n procedural in nature "You can't understand the present without knowledge of its past, can you ? No ! So it is with Sikh Faith, you have to have knowledge of its historical past, tradition, custom and culture to fully understand and appreciate its genesis." It was to illustrate a point that knowledge of Sikh Ideology is fundamental in the understanding of SGGSJ.

God bless you !

 

[Harry Haller]

Balbir

Sorry to hear your unhappy at SPN, but look, I said what I said in a context that was both substantive n procedural in nature "You can't understand the present without knowledge of its past, can you ? No ! So it is with Sikh Faith, you have to have knowledge of its historical past, tradition, custom and culture to fully understand and appreciate its genesis." It was to illustrate a point that knowledge of Sikh Ideology is fundamental in the understanding of SGGSJ.

God bless you !

I know you find it hard to answer questions, however, I will persevere, are you saying that the universal truth that we seek so hard, is in fact rooted in traditions, customs and culture? I take it you fully understand such, but your understanding points towards reincarnation and karma, which is not my understanding, if no one, as you say, professes to have this knowledge, I assume you include yourself, so the above is simply your opinion, rather than word, I could say

"You can't understand the present with knowledge of its past, can you ? No ! So it is with Sikh Faith, you have to have no knowledge of its historical past, tradition, custom and culture to fully understand and appreciate its genesis."

which would be my opinion, and in fact, it is, strip Sikhism of all the Sakhis, the traditions, the customs, the rituals, the culture, and you have a better chance of understanding it without all the man made distractions and full moon ceremonies.

 

[chazSingh]

I am now completely disillusioned with posts and posters on SPN. My spirit says so.

Maybe it is time to move on. I am most unhappy here.

I feel I do not have to participate in SPN to move on because, every single day, I am moved on, by nature -

When the first snowfall hit my part of the world, recently, roads were inaccessible and nature was presented with difficulties. So I trudged through whatever and got some birdseed.
Coming home, I filled the bird feeding jig and hung it up on a nearby tree.

So, naturally, I wished to see if the birds would eat the seeds (Ego).

Not long after, I saw some birds coming down and taking the seeds (Happiness).

The first thought which came to my mind was - they are eating our seeds (Ego).

The second thought which came to my mind was - it is not our seeds, but God's (destruction of some part of Ego).

So, the thought which was finally articulated out of my mouth (to my wife) was - Look, they are eating the seeds (Truth).

The realisation for me was - God always provides for God's creations. God has set Bhandaars (Storehouses) at every place of God's creation (on this Earth and elsewhere) and these Storehouses are never empty regardless of however much is taken out of them.

Who am I, but a slave, a worm, the lowest of worms who would be happy for the dust of the feet of God's beloved.

I shall move on to seek this dust.

Sat Sri Akal.

in many ways i agree with you about these kinds of Forums...they are a place for opinion after opinion...
but that which we long to experience we cannot really ever discuss or explain to people...never the less, people ask questions on the forums and want answers....this is the age we live in... knowledge through words and study...rather than actual experience...

i remember i used to feel exhausted spending hours writing replies on this forum...if there was some slightly heated debate, it would live with me long into the evening after logging out of the forum... if anything it showed me my own Ego...wanting to be right all the time...

It used to frustrate me, because i know my own experiences...yet people would say it's 'nonsense'.....after a while i stopped participating so much...
i now just say my opinion and leave it at that...and not get involved in back and forth replies...
if someone finds my writing interesting and inspiring, Great!, if not...its cool also

 

[Original]

are you saying that the universal truth that we seek so hard, is in fact rooted in traditions, customs and culture?

..no I'm not saying that, what I'm saying is that there is a relationship, an organic relationship without which crystallization or realization cannot be had. Not to say, "ah ha" moments can't be had, but perspective n context are equally important to render it intelligible. Take for example, an apple tree. Nature plants the seed into the soil, up comes the tree, the bud, the blossom, the flower and finally the apple. It is said the true nature is "apple". But without the tree, the bud and the flower could the apple have come into existence ?

You are Balbir today, but what were you at the crack of human civilization, given that your soul has remained intact despite countless bodily deaths ? It is in this regard human history an indispensable discipline and important conceptual tool in the awakening of our true self.

OMG, I've just realized I'm conversing with you brother H ! Forgive me, I was typing away as if it was Balbir on the receiving end. Riders n Runners @SPN will go blisstics knowing its HnO again. No H, we must pity them for their worth for we've exchanged so much in the past, all good mind you and give them free reigns.

Much obliged

 

[Harry Haller]

You are Balbir today, but what were you at the crack of human civilization, given that your soul has remained intact despite countless bodily deaths ?

but I don't subscribe to that philosophy, you do, so my take is bound to be different from what you are intimating is a default stance, namely reincarnation.

OMG, I've just realized I'm conversing with you brother H ! Forgive me, I was typing away as if it was Balbir on the receiving end.

no problem Originalji, I think he left.

 

[Sikhilove]

Personally, i went through years of studying and reading books, asking questions on forums...etc...this is because i have some belief and yearning because i will not accept what my senses perceive as the full story/picture...

but non of this studying ever stopped that yearning...in fact it screwed my mind, especially these forums...opinion after opinion... if someone agreed with me...yes great...felt good...but so what...what have i actually learned? nothing.... spiritual sadness still existed...yearning becoming more unbearable...

One think that remained constant in Gurbani was the direction to look at (inside)...in order to start 'knowing' 'breathing' and 'immersing' in the truth...the living truth... this is the direction...a body of x-y coordinates containing something that is beyond x-y coordinates...a body containing something that cannot be contained...

This is where the true pilgrimage started... yes i am falling off the path sadly on a very regular basis, but when i close my eyes at night the light still shines bright...it gives me solace that even though i forget Him, He doesn't forget me...

I can share all my experiences with everyone...but will that help? they are just more stories...some will believe, other won't... and the ones who believe...what does it do for them...they're just stories...Nanaks inspired path is to look in the right direction...and once your pilgrimage unfolds...try to inspire others to look in the right direction...

If we're facing away from the lighthouse...do we know it's there? no....well actually we might get a glimpse through a reflection (creation)?) but to really see it and behold it...we need to face it...and walk towards it.

While i like forums, they can be destructive... I had a message from Sikhawareness Forum...they are having similar issues of Sangat moving away from it...and it's mostly due to quarreling and arguing...

All we need to do is start looking in the right direction...and then guess what, we'll be sharing so many amazing things with each other...inspiring each other...picking up those that are falling...etc etc...

True

 

[Sikhilove]

I am now completely disillusioned with posts and posters on SPN. My spirit says so.

Maybe it is time to move on. I am most unhappy here.

I feel I do not have to participate in SPN to move on because, every single day, I am moved on, by nature -

When the first snowfall hit my part of the world, recently, roads were inaccessible and nature was presented with difficulties. So I trudged through whatever and got some birdseed.
Coming home, I filled the bird feeding jig and hung it up on a nearby tree.

So, naturally, I wished to see if the birds would eat the seeds (Ego).

Not long after, I saw some birds coming down and taking the seeds (Happiness).

The first thought which came to my mind was - they are eating our seeds (Ego).

The second thought which came to my mind was - it is not our seeds, but God's (destruction of some part of Ego).

So, the thought which was finally articulated out of my mouth (to my wife) was - Look, they are eating the seeds (Truth).

The realisation for me was - God always provides for God's creations. God has set Bhandaars (Storehouses) at every place of God's creation (on this Earth and elsewhere) and these Storehouses are never empty regardless of however much is taken out of them.

Who am I, but a slave, a worm, the lowest of worms who would be happy for the dust of the feet of God's beloved.

I shall move on to seek this dust.

Sat Sri Akal.

Nice post. Yeah just give up your head, put it on the floor n never pick it up.

People arguing in ego is just Maya. But we don't realise because ego tells us we have to win. At the detriment of conveying the wrong information. We are truly ungrateful beings.

He provides us with necessities and keeps us from harm in each n every moment. N how is He repayed? We get comfortable and crap on his blessings. That's why they say pain is the medicine and pleasure Is the disease.

Discover Him and let him work through you.

 

[sukhsingh]

Gents - good morning !

Let's talk "original" Sikhi. The Sikhi that Nanak inspired and practiced where truth, beauty and goodness resided. Not your twenty first century "progressive" model advanced by new kids on the block [SPN]. Sorry, but their versions have an extremely short attention span and ponders to only a very narrow demographics within western socities. You can't understand the present without knowledge of its past, can you ? No !. So it is with Sikh Faith, you have to have knowledge of its historical past, tradition, custom and culture to fully understand and appreciate its genesis. Question is: who at SPN professes to have that knowledge ? No one ! If that'd be correct, then does it really matter who or what gets debated and discussed when both the conclusions and intermediate steps are made up of the "unknown" by the unknowns. How can the resulting consistency ever by any manner of means become true knowledge ? Debating and discussing Sikh tenets with those that have no knowledge or limited knowledge is like the blind studying vision. They can hear, but they can't see and what they can't see they can't perceive, what they can't perceive they can't conceive and what they can't conceive have no existence for that very reason.

Let us move to the thread at hand :

Aman Singh Ji, first n foremost, should we not first define what constitutes a shabd ? I think we should.

By definition a shabd is sound. This sound is captured by symbols called letters [akkhar in punjabi]. These letters are enjoined to make a word. A word is also called a shabd in Gurmukhi. The words are strung together to make a sentence and sentences make paragraphs and so on. And since, Gurbani is written in Poetic Form, the poetic configurations of a shabd vary between "one" liner tuks to "eight" liner asthpadis [8 line stanzas]. What shabd might you have been advocating, please explain ?

..speak soon

I kinda follow what you're saying but find the idea of original sikhi you talk about at odds with your basic premise..

 

[Original]

I kinda follow what you're saying but find the idea of original sikhi you talk about at odds with your basic premise..

..please elaborate further on the point you're making - thank you !

 

[sukhsingh]

..please elaborate further on the point you're making - thank you !

I don't know what original sikhi means.. Can you define or tell me what in your opinion original sikhi actually is?

 

[Original]

I don't know what original sikhi means..

..that's precisely my point ! You wouldn't know Original Sikhi without the knowledge of its essentials just as you wouldn't Marxism, without its theory, concept, method and analysis, soaked in Hegelian philosophy.

Can you define

"the way here and after", meaning, living in the physical and the metaphysical worlds.

tell me what in your opinion original sikhi actually is?

...its not my opinion at all ! Sikh doctrinal is "absolutely" clear on the meaning/purpose of human birth and how liberation is its defining feature towards which all endeavours must be directed.

 

[Harry Haller]

errr if it is absolutely clear why are there folks that do not believe in it, that believe in the single life, what would you call them?