Is There A Difference In What Is Meant By "true Guru" And "lord?"

Discussion in 'Sikh Sikhi Sikhism' started by RD1, Oct 29, 2017.

  1. RD1

    RD1 Writer SPNer

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    Is there a difference in what is meant by "True Guru" and "Lord?"

    In the shabad below, do "Lord," "God," "True Guru," "Supreme Lord God," "Him" all mean the same thing?

    I have a challenge understanding what is being said here....and if there is any distinction between the various terms for God being used...


    The glorious greatness of the Guru, the True Guru, is pleasing to the GurSikh's mind.

    The Lord preserves the honor of the True Guru, which increases day by day.

    The Supreme Lord God is in the Mind of the Guru, the True Guru; the Supreme Lord God saves Him.

    The Lord is the Power and Support of the Guru, the True Guru; all come to bow before Him.

    Those who have gazed lovingly upon my True Guru - all their sins are taken away.

    Their faces are radiant in the Court of the Lord, and they obtain great glory.

    Servant Nanak begs for the dust of the feet of those GurSikhs, O my Siblings of Destiny. ||2||
     
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  3. Ishna

    Ishna Enthusiast Writer SPNer

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    It's a great question and an apparently mysterious shabad.

    Full shabad in question is on Ang 310 and posted in the quote box below for those curious:

     
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  4. Original

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    RD1 Ji,

    Good evening

    ..they're synonymous, wider meaning therefore will be the same.
    ..yes, invariably the same within the perspective framed, but not in the context found. For example, Lord, True Guru and Him can be had in Form, whereas, God, Supreme Lord God cannot, because they're "formless".

    If you get time, try n read "ideas n forms". Smashing arguments betwixt empiricism v rationalism. This will be an eye opener for understanding Sikh thought, especially the idea God and the form Sat Guru.

    The shabad in question [p310, SGGSJ] is very clearly dichotomising the two, that is, God n Guru. Opening verse has it that "thanks be to God for meeting with the Sat Guru" and thereinafter, all is heavenly glory.

    Goodnight
     
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  5. sukhsingh

    sukhsingh Writer SPNer

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    Great post!
    Personally I have always felt that their is a conflation of terms when we use common translations..

    Lord suggests power relationship akin to master and subject which has never felt quite right to me
     
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  6. Ishna

    Ishna Enthusiast Writer SPNer

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    In what was has it not felt right to you?
     
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  7. RD1

    RD1 Writer SPNer

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    In what ways can Lord, True Guru, Him be had in form?

    Hmm I think I am starting to kind of understand. Its like the entirety of the abstract all-pervasive God may not be completely comprehensible to us. But, the Truth is manifested to us....there are parts of the All-pervasive God that are comprehensible and attainable....
     
  8. RD1

    RD1 Writer SPNer

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    I do feel that meaning is lost in translation, that is inevitable. Also, we have to be conscious of the mind-frame that is used when translated into English, which could result in western/abrhamic thinking being injected into Gurbani interpretation.

    I do feel in Sikhi there is a power relationship -God is the King, is above us, we worship his Word. God is within us and without us, the Master, the Architect.
     
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  9. Original

    Original Writer SPNer

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    The Ten Gurus when they were in body and now in spirit the same is SGGSJ.
     
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  10. Sikhilove

    Sikhilove Writer SPNer

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    It's just the fact that the drop is in the ocean and the oceans in the drop. All in One and One in All.

    The Gurus respected the Truth, the gyan that they were taught. They understood and accepted the reality of who they were.

    He was the first Truth knower and the creator of the Universe, a gift to Us. The Bhagat bows not out of fear or roles of power, all are equal in Truth and being Truthful means Truly accepting yourself as the lowest of the low, as Nothing.

    He bows out of utter Love and Awe, and by choice, why else is Gurbani filled with poems of this love.
     
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  11. Balbir27

    Balbir27 Look for what is, not what you think should be Writer SPNer Supporter

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    My ABC budhi tells me

    By His Grace, He leads us to meet the True Guru; then, as Gurmukh, we chant the Lord's Name, and meditate on it.
    [His Grace=God; True Guru=SGGS, Gurmukh=student (opposite is Manmukh)]

    The Lord preserves the honor of the True Guru, which increases day by day.
    [Lord=God]

    Servant Nanak begs for the dust of the feet of those GurSikhs, O my Siblings of Destiny. ||2||
    [Servant Nanak=True Guru, still present in the words of the SGGS (also True Guru); GurSikhs (those Sikhs of the Guru who have " tasted the true essence of the True Lord, remain satisfied and fulfilled" and " They know this essence of the Lord, but they say nothing, like the mute who tastes the sweet candy, and says nothing")]

    Siblings of Destiny= by virtue of the actions described in the previous lines above, these Gursikhs become akin to brothers and sisters of Guru Nanak, in the destiny set for them by God.
     
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  12. Sikhilove

    Sikhilove Writer SPNer

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    Yes, we're not supposed to fear God. The path is about Love and True Peace/Sehaj.

    Its freeing us from ritual, superstition and the pain of attachment to the illusion and into true happiness/ love/ chardi kala.

    It's teaching us to live free, peacefully and happily.
     
  13. Original

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    The Gurus were the truth, albeit, in part. I'm reminded here of the famous tale of the seven blind men and the elephant [google it].

    In their search for truth, each of the blind men felt different parts of the elephant's body and expressed to their better judgement what they "felt" was an elephant, sum total of which conflicted with the real elephant. Although, they were wrong in defining the beast, they were right in capturing bit of the elephantine "truth", that is, leg for tree, trunk for snake, body for wall, etc. Similarly, the Gurus were the smaller truth of the bigger truth Waheguru. And the test for this kind of proposition is subjective and not objective. That is to say, you may see the Guru in Nanak and Balbir may see the Man in Nanak. You're both right because you see the true "being" in Nanak, albeit, one a guru and the other a man.

    Consciousness in itself is nothing until it has perceived something because consciousness is always conscious of something. And this “something” is provided just as much by ourselves as by our surroundings. We are partly instrumental in deciding what we perceive by selecting what is significant for us. In other words, two people can be present in the same room and yet experience it quite differently. This is because we contribute our own meaning, our own interests, when we perceive our surroundings. For example, a woman who is pregnant might think she sees other pregnant women everywhere she looks. That's not because there were no pregnant women before, but because she sees through pregnant eyes. Similarly, a bank robber on the run might be seeing police officers in every human he runs into [sophie's world]. You get the drift -

    Goodnight
     
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  14. Sikhilove

    Sikhilove Writer SPNer

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    Truth is the master, and we are Nothing. That's the Truth. We're merely slaves to Truth.

    That's what the Gurus accepted themselves to be.
     
  15. sukhsingh

    sukhsingh Writer SPNer

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    I find that idea hard to resolve because if there was a power relationship then onkaar could not be nirvair or nirbhau
     
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  16. sukhsingh

    sukhsingh Writer SPNer

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    I'm not sure i fully agree with you here on a pedantic level..

    Truth is truth regardless of what our perception or opinion about it. The power of truth is Infallible. It exists whether we choose to accept it or not.. Or rather whether we think we have understood it or not..
     
  17. Sikhilove

    Sikhilove Writer SPNer

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    Well yeh but when u accept it, you're truly respecting and honoring yourself/your true nature rather than running around mentally being conned by the illusion.
     
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  18. sukhsingh

    sukhsingh Writer SPNer

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    Whilst I agree with what you are saying personally I find it difficult to resolve the idea that 'I' can find absolute truths.. I believe there is absolute truth, but the idea that submitting to 'a truth' troubles me because human nature and ego lends itself to searching for absolutes.. Finding absolute truth in 'philosophical assertions' for me is often the basis of dogmatism and empowers bigotry..
     
  19. sukhsingh

    sukhsingh Writer SPNer

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    Surely We are a part of the truth? It is both within and without
     
  20. Sikhilove

    Sikhilove Writer SPNer

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    The Truth is Nothing. It's a frequency beyond what mortals can comprehend. You accept yourself to be nothing, and you accept the reality.
     
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  21. sukhsingh

    sukhsingh Writer SPNer

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    But it is not nihilistic we are not nothing.. We are a part of the whole otherwise what is the point?
     

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