Is There A Difference In What Is Meant By "true Guru" And "lord?"

[RD1]

Is there a difference in what is meant by "True Guru" and "Lord?"

In the shabad below, do "Lord," "God," "True Guru," "Supreme Lord God," "Him" all mean the same thing?

I have a challenge understanding what is being said here....and if there is any distinction between the various terms for God being used...


The glorious greatness of the Guru, the True Guru, is pleasing to the GurSikh's mind.

The Lord preserves the honor of the True Guru, which increases day by day.

The Supreme Lord God is in the Mind of the Guru, the True Guru; the Supreme Lord God saves Him.

The Lord is the Power and Support of the Guru, the True Guru; all come to bow before Him.

Those who have gazed lovingly upon my True Guru - all their sins are taken away.

Their faces are radiant in the Court of the Lord, and they obtain great glory.

Servant Nanak begs for the dust of the feet of those GurSikhs, O my Siblings of Destiny. ||2||

 

[Ishna]

It's a great question and an apparently mysterious shabad.

Full shabad in question is on Ang 310 and posted in the quote box below for those curious:

ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ੪ ॥
Salok mėhlā 4.
Shalok, Fourth Mehl:

ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਮੇਲਿਓਨੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਇਸੀ ॥
Kar kirpā saṯgur meli▫on mukẖ gurmukẖ nām ḏẖi▫ā▫isī.
By His Grace, He leads us to meet the True Guru; then, as Gurmukh, we chant the Lord's Name, and meditate on it.

ਸੋ ਕਰੇ ਜਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਭਾਵਸੀ ਗੁਰੁ ਪੂਰਾ ਘਰੀ ਵਸਾਇਸੀ ॥
So kare jė saṯgur bẖāvsī gur pūrā gẖarī vasā▫isī.
We do that which pleases the True Guru; the Perfect Guru comes to dwell in the home of the heart.

ਜਿਨ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਧਾਨੁ ਹੈ ਤਿਨ ਕਾ ਭਉ ਸਭੁ ਗਵਾਇਸੀ ॥
Jin anḏar nām niḏẖān hai ṯin kā bẖa▫o sabẖ gavā▫isī.
Those who have the treasure of the Naam deep within - all their fears are removed.

ਜਿਨ ਰਖਣ ਕਉ ਹਰਿ ਆਪਿ ਹੋਇ ਹੋਰ ਕੇਤੀ ਝਖਿ ਝਖਿ ਜਾਇਸੀ ॥
Jin rakẖaṇ ka▫o har āp ho▫e hor keṯī jẖakẖ jẖakẖ jā▫isī.
They are protected by the Lord Himself; others struggle and fight against them, but they only come to death.

ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਇ ਤੂ ਹਰਿ ਹਲਤਿ ਪਲਤਿ ਛੋਡਾਇਸੀ ॥੧॥
Jan Nānak nām ḏẖi▫ā▫e ṯū har halaṯ palaṯ cẖẖodā▫isī. ||1||
O servant Nanak, meditate on the Naam; the Lord shall deliver you, here and hereafter. ||1||

ਮਃ ੪ ॥
Mėhlā 4.
Fourth Mehl:

ਗੁਰਸਿਖਾ ਕੈ ਮਨਿ ਭਾਵਦੀ ਗੁਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥
Gursikẖā kai man bẖāvḏī gur saṯgur kī vadi▫ā▫ī.
The glorious greatness of the Guru, the True Guru, is pleasing to the GurSikh's mind.

ਹਰਿ ਰਾਖਹੁ ਪੈਜ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਕੀ ਨਿਤ ਚੜੈ ਸਵਾਈ ॥
Har rākẖo paij saṯgurū kī niṯ cẖaṛai savā▫ī.
The Lord preserves the honor of the True Guru, which increases day by day.

ਗੁਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਮਨਿ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਹੈ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਛਡਾਈ ॥
Gur saṯgur kai man pārbarahm hai pārbarahm cẖẖadā▫ī.
The Supreme Lord God is in the Mind of the Guru, the True Guru; the Supreme Lord God saves Him.

ਗੁਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਤਾਣੁ ਦੀਬਾਣੁ ਹਰਿ ਤਿਨਿ ਸਭ ਆਣਿ ਨਿਵਾਈ ॥
Gur saṯgur ṯāṇ ḏībāṇ har ṯin sabẖ āṇ nivā▫ī.
The Lord is the Power and Support of the Guru, the True Guru; all come to bow before Him.

ਜਿਨੀ ਡਿਠਾ ਮੇਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਭਾਉ ਕਰਿ ਤਿਨ ਕੇ ਸਭਿ ਪਾਪ ਗਵਾਈ ॥
Jinī diṯẖā merā saṯgur bẖā▫o kar ṯin ke sabẖ pāp gavā▫ī.
Those who have gazed lovingly upon my True Guru - all their sins are taken away.

ਹਰਿ ਦਰਗਹ ਤੇ ਮੁਖ ਉਜਲੇ ਬਹੁ ਸੋਭਾ ਪਾਈ ॥
Har ḏargėh ṯe mukẖ ujle baho sobẖā pā▫ī.
Their faces are radiant in the Court of the Lord, and they obtain great glory.

ਜਨੁ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਮੰਗੈ ਧੂੜਿ ਤਿਨ ਜੋ ਗੁਰ ਕੇ ਸਿਖ ਮੇਰੇ ਭਾਈ ॥੨॥
Jan Nānak mangai ḏẖūṛ ṯin jo gur ke sikẖ mere bẖā▫ī. ||2||
Servant Nanak begs for the dust of the feet of those GurSikhs, O my Siblings of Destiny. ||2||

ਪਉੜੀ ॥
Pa▫oṛī.
Pauree:

ਹਉ ਆਖਿ ਸਲਾਹੀ ਸਿਫਤਿ ਸਚੁ ਸਚੁ ਸਚੇ ਕੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥
Ha▫o ākẖ salāhī sifaṯ sacẖ sacẖ sacẖe kī vadi▫ā▫ī.
I chant the Praises and Glories of the True One. True is the glorious greatness of the True Lord.

ਸਾਲਾਹੀ ਸਚੁ ਸਲਾਹ ਸਚੁ ਸਚੁ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਕਿਨੈ ਨ ਪਾਈ ॥
Sālāhī sacẖ salāh sacẖ sacẖ kīmaṯ kinai na pā▫ī.
I praise the True Lord, and the Praises of the True Lord. His worth cannot be estimated.

ਸਚੁ ਸਚਾ ਰਸੁ ਜਿਨੀ ਚਖਿਆ ਸੇ ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤਿ ਰਹੇ ਆਘਾਈ ॥
Sacẖ sacẖā ras jinī cẖakẖi▫ā se ṯaripaṯ rahe āgẖā▫ī.
Those who have tasted the true essence of the True Lord, remain satisfied and fulfilled.

ਇਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਰਸੁ ਸੇਈ ਜਾਣਦੇ ਜਿਉ ਗੂੰਗੈ ਮਿਠਿਆਈ ਖਾਈ ॥
Ih har ras se▫ī jāṇḏe ji▫o gūʼngai miṯẖi▫ā▫ī kẖā▫ī.
They know this essence of the Lord, but they say nothing, like the mute who tastes the sweet candy, and says nothing.

ਗੁਰਿ ਪੂਰੈ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸੇਵਿਆ ਮਨਿ ਵਜੀ ਵਾਧਾਈ ॥੧੮॥
Gur pūrai har parabẖ sevi▫ā man vajī vāḏẖā▫ī. ||18||
The Perfect Guru serves the Lord God; His vibration vibrates and resounds in the mind. ||18||

 

[Original]

RD1 Ji,

Good evening

Is there a difference in what is meant by "True Guru" and "Lord?"

..they're synonymous, wider meaning therefore will be the same.

In the shabad below, do "Lord," "God," "True Guru," "Supreme Lord God," "Him" all mean the same thing?

..yes, invariably the same within the perspective framed, but not in the context found. For example, Lord, True Guru and Him can be had in Form, whereas, God, Supreme Lord God cannot, because they're "formless".

I have a challenge understanding what is being said here....and if there is any distinction between the various terms for God being used...

If you get time, try n read "ideas n forms". Smashing arguments betwixt empiricism v rationalism. This will be an eye opener for understanding Sikh thought, especially the idea God and the form Sat Guru.

The shabad in question [p310, SGGSJ] is very clearly dichotomising the two, that is, God n Guru. Opening verse has it that "thanks be to God for meeting with the Sat Guru" and thereinafter, all is heavenly glory.

Goodnight

 

[sukhsingh]

Great post!
Personally I have always felt that their is a conflation of terms when we use common translations..

Lord suggests power relationship akin to master and subject which has never felt quite right to me

 

[Ishna]

Great post!
Personally I have always felt that their is a conflation of terms when we use common translations..

Lord suggests power relationship akin to master and subject which has never felt quite right to me

In what was has it not felt right to you?

 

[RD1]

For example, Lord, True Guru and Him can be had in Form, whereas, God, Supreme Lord God cannot, because they're "formless".

In what ways can Lord, True Guru, Him be had in form?

If you get time, try n read "ideas n forms". Smashing arguments betwixt empiricism v rationalism. This will be an eye opener for understanding Sikh thought, especially the idea God and the form Sat Guru.

The shabad in question [p310, SGGSJ] is very clearly dichotomising the two, that is, God n Guru. Opening verse has it that "thanks be to God for meeting with the Sat Guru" and thereinafter, all is heavenly glory.

Hmm I think I am starting to kind of understand. Its like the entirety of the abstract all-pervasive God may not be completely comprehensible to us. But, the Truth is manifested to us....there are parts of the All-pervasive God that are comprehensible and attainable....

 

[RD1]

Personally I have always felt that their is a conflation of terms when we use common translations..

I do feel that meaning is lost in translation, that is inevitable. Also, we have to be conscious of the mind-frame that is used when translated into English, which could result in western/abrhamic thinking being injected into Gurbani interpretation.

Lord suggests power relationship akin to master and subject which has never felt quite right to me

I do feel in Sikhi there is a power relationship -God is the King, is above us, we worship his Word. God is within us and without us, the Master, the Architect.

 

[Original]

In what ways can Lord, True Guru, Him be had in form?

The Ten Gurus when they were in body and now in spirit the same is SGGSJ.

 

[Sikhilove]

The Ten Gurus when they were in body and now in spirit the same is SGGSJ.

It's just the fact that the drop is in the ocean and the oceans in the drop. All in One and One in All.

The Gurus respected the Truth, the gyan that they were taught. They understood and accepted the reality of who they were.

He was the first Truth knower and the creator of the Universe, a gift to Us. The Bhagat bows not out of fear or roles of power, all are equal in Truth and being Truthful means Truly accepting yourself as the lowest of the low, as Nothing.

He bows out of utter Love and Awe, and by choice, why else is Gurbani filled with poems of this love.

 

[Balbir27]

My ABC budhi tells me

By His Grace, He leads us to meet the True Guru; then, as Gurmukh, we chant the Lord's Name, and meditate on it.
[His Grace=God; True Guru=SGGS, Gurmukh=student (opposite is Manmukh)]

The Lord preserves the honor of the True Guru, which increases day by day.
[Lord=God]

Servant Nanak begs for the dust of the feet of those GurSikhs, O my Siblings of Destiny. ||2||
[Servant Nanak=True Guru, still present in the words of the SGGS (also True Guru); GurSikhs (those Sikhs of the Guru who have " tasted the true essence of the True Lord, remain satisfied and fulfilled" and " They know this essence of the Lord, but they say nothing, like the mute who tastes the sweet candy, and says nothing")]

Siblings of Destiny= by virtue of the actions described in the previous lines above, these Gursikhs become akin to brothers and sisters of Guru Nanak, in the destiny set for them by God.

 

[Sikhilove]

My ABC budhi tells me

By His Grace, He leads us to meet the True Guru; then, as Gurmukh, we chant the Lord's Name, and meditate on it.
[His Grace=God; True Guru=SGGS, Gurmukh=student (opposite is Manmukh)]

The Lord preserves the honor of the True Guru, which increases day by day.
[Lord=God]

Servant Nanak begs for the dust of the feet of those GurSikhs, O my Siblings of Destiny. ||2||
[Servant Nanak=True Guru, still present in the words of the SGGS (also True Guru); GurSikhs (those Sikhs of the Guru who have " tasted the true essence of the True Lord, remain satisfied and fulfilled" and " They know this essence of the Lord, but they say nothing, like the mute who tastes the sweet candy, and says nothing")]

Siblings of Destiny= by virtue of the previous lines, these Gursikhs become akin to brothers and sisters of Guru Nanak, in the destiny set for them by God.

Yes, we're not supposed to fear God. The path is about Love and True Peace/Sehaj.

Its freeing us from ritual, superstition and the pain of attachment to the illusion and into true happiness/ love/ chardi kala.

It's teaching us to live free, peacefully and happily.

 

[Original]

It's just the fact that the drop is in the ocean and the oceans in the drop.

The Gurus respected the Truth, the gyan that they were taught. They understood and accepted the reality of who they were.

It means All in One and One in All. Everything and everyone is Truth/God really.

The Gurus just realized, respected and accepted it fully.

The Gurus were the truth, albeit, in part. I'm reminded here of the famous tale of the seven blind men and the elephant [google it].

In their search for truth, each of the blind men felt different parts of the elephant's body and expressed to their better judgement what they "felt" was an elephant, sum total of which conflicted with the real elephant. Although, they were wrong in defining the beast, they were right in capturing bit of the elephantine "truth", that is, leg for tree, trunk for snake, body for wall, etc. Similarly, the Gurus were the smaller truth of the bigger truth Waheguru. And the test for this kind of proposition is subjective and not objective. That is to say, you may see the Guru in Nanak and Balbir may see the Man in Nanak. You're both right because you see the true "being" in Nanak, albeit, one a guru and the other a man.

Consciousness in itself is nothing until it has perceived something because consciousness is always conscious of something. And this “something” is provided just as much by ourselves as by our surroundings. We are partly instrumental in deciding what we perceive by selecting what is significant for us. In other words, two people can be present in the same room and yet experience it quite differently. This is because we contribute our own meaning, our own interests, when we perceive our surroundings. For example, a woman who is pregnant might think she sees other pregnant women everywhere she looks. That's not because there were no pregnant women before, but because she sees through pregnant eyes. Similarly, a bank robber on the run might be seeing police officers in every human he runs into [sophie's world]. You get the drift -

Goodnight

 

[Sikhilove]

The Gurus were the truth, albeit, in part. I'm reminded here of the famous tale of the seven blind men and the elephant [google it].

In their search for truth, each of the blind men felt different parts of the elephant's body and expressed to their better judgement what they "felt" was an elephant, sum total of which conflicted with the real elephant. Although, they were wrong in defining the beast, they were right in capturing bit of the elephantine "truth", that is, leg for tree, trunk for snake, body for wall, etc. Similarly, the Gurus were the smaller truth of the bigger truth Waheguru. And the test for this kind of proposition is subjective and not objective. That is to say, you may see the Guru in Nanak and Balbir may see the Man in Nanak. You're both right because you see the true "being" in Nanak, albeit, one a guru and the other a man.

Consciousness in itself is nothing until it has perceived something because consciousness is always conscious of something. And this “something” is provided just as much by ourselves as by our surroundings. We are partly instrumental in deciding what we perceive by selecting what is significant for us. In other words, two people can be present in the same room and yet experience it quite differently. This is because we contribute our own meaning, our own interests, when we perceive our surroundings. For example, a woman who is pregnant might think she sees other pregnant women everywhere she looks. That's not because there were no pregnant women before, but because she sees through pregnant eyes. Similarly, a bank robber on the run might be seeing police officers in every human he runs into [sophie's world]. You get the drift -

Goodnight

Truth is the master, and we are Nothing. That's the Truth. We're merely slaves to Truth.

That's what the Gurus accepted themselves to be.

 

[sukhsingh]

I do feel that meaning is lost in translation, that is inevitable. Also, we have to be conscious of the mind-frame that is used when translated into English, which could result in western/abrhamic thinking being injected into Gurbani interpretation.



I do feel in Sikhi there is a power relationship -God is the King, is above us, we worship his Word. God is within us and without us, the Master, the Architect.

I find that idea hard to resolve because if there was a power relationship then onkaar could not be nirvair or nirbhau

 

[sukhsingh]

Truth is the master, and we are Nothing. That's the Truth. We're merely slaves to Truth.

That's what the Gurus accepted themselves to be.

I'm not sure i fully agree with you here on a pedantic level..

Truth is truth regardless of what our perception or opinion about it. The power of truth is Infallible. It exists whether we choose to accept it or not.. Or rather whether we think we have understood it or not..

 

[Sikhilove]

I'm not sure i fully agree with you here on a pedantic level..

Truth is truth regardless of what our perception or opinion about it. The power of truth is Infallible. It exists whether we choose to accept it or not.. Or rather whether we think we have understood it or not..

Well yeh but when u accept it, you're truly respecting and honoring yourself/your true nature rather than running around mentally being conned by the illusion.

 

[sukhsingh]

Well yeh but when u accept it, you're truly respecting and honoring yourself/your true nature rather than running around mentally being conned by the illusion.

Whilst I agree with what you are saying personally I find it difficult to resolve the idea that 'I' can find absolute truths.. I believe there is absolute truth, but the idea that submitting to 'a truth' troubles me because human nature and ego lends itself to searching for absolutes.. Finding absolute truth in 'philosophical assertions' for me is often the basis of dogmatism and empowers bigotry..

 

[sukhsingh]

Truth is the master, and we are Nothing. That's the Truth. We're merely slaves to Truth.

That's what the Gurus accepted themselves to be.

Surely We are a part of the truth? It is both within and without

 

[Sikhilove]

Surely We are a part of the truth? It is both within and without

The Truth is Nothing. It's a frequency beyond what mortals can comprehend. You accept yourself to be nothing, and you accept the reality.

 

[sukhsingh]

The Truth is Nothing. It's a frequency beyond what mortals can comprehend. You accept yourself to be nothing, and you accept the reality.

But it is not nihilistic we are not nothing.. We are a part of the whole otherwise what is the point?