If Christianity Can Be Proven Wrong, Then What Makes Sikhism So Right?

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by Truthsikher31, Feb 24, 2018.

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  1. Truthsikher31

    Truthsikher31 SPNer

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    Christianity has many flaws, and yet it's one of the oldest and first religions. Religion is supposed to be the word of God. Yet science, common sense, and flat out ignorant teachings show that Christianity has many flaws or is just wrong and not real. So then what makes Sikhism so right and real. The bible and idea of Jesus was created 1000s of years ago, and is very hard to believe in their so called miracles, and yet Sikhism is only few hundred years old. Am I to believe "God" talked to the white man 1000s of years ago, sent his son only to take him back, and then waited 1000s of years later to speak to 10 gurus in a span of 100 years, in which they perform miracles of their own, and then never to be heard from anyone again. Since the 10th guru, no one legitammly has claiimed to spoken to God. And in today's time if one says they saw him or spoke to him, we' d call them crazy.
    To me Sikhism is just another man made up religion. There is another post on this site that shows through sikh history how it's a male dominant religion . Just like every other religion, which were created 100s and 1000s of years ago.
     
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  3. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh Mentor Writer SPNer

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    I have news for you provided you know anything about the religions.
    Sikhi is not a religion. It has no god as seen in other religions. Sikhi has no mechanical rituals, no hell, no heaven, no judgement day, no reincarnation, no miracles, no prophets hence no prophecies........
     
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  4. Truthsikher31

    Truthsikher31 SPNer

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    Wow, you must have already achieved enlightenment, since you know all about religions. According to you I apparently don't know anything. So Sikhi is not a religion? Really? I forgot its a way of life according to the new definitions. Was hoping to get an intelligent response but right off the bat, got someone who lives in their own spiritual world, and not in reality. I must have read some other topics, or different coded language on this site, where Sikhism is referenced as a religion.

    And yah obviously it's different from other religions. Which one religion is same as the other. No god as seen in other religions? So please "enlighten" me on what God do most people who go to Gurdwara pray to. Really don't feel like responding more to your pathetic attempt to put me down. Obviously I'm dealing with someone trying to be a hero here, because I apparently pinched a nerve by questioning the validity of a "religion".

    My question was, if you didnt understand, is that Sikhism was created by Guru Nanak. He had a vision (saw the flaws between Hindus/Muslims) and thus created Sikhism. And as his teachings and other gurus after him did so in the name of God. So during that century the concept of God/religion was understood. But where did the idea of God/religion start or come from. Well then wouldn't you have to start earlier in Human History, because "if you know anything" about human existence, Sikhi was not created at the beginning of time. We have World History books that cover events around the world, during the same time Sikhism was created and evolving. So we would have to go further back in time. Christianity was created 1000s of years ago, like according to their own religion, the world has only existed for few 1000s of years (which is so pathetic and ignorant). But still the idea of Jesus and so forth has been around much longer than Sikhism has been around.

    The idea of religion and God is all man made, and really by men, not women. So, if today's Science can prove that parts of the bible are completely wrong, and thus, doesn't that discredit the Christians proof of God. The Christian Church has always been a major power in history, and used religion to maintain that power. So if proven wrong, doesn't that make any attempt for future religions in history to also be wrong.

    I'm not a white Christian, in case that's where your mind went when I posted this topic. I'm a brown "Sikh", have been my whole life. Kept my kesh even till this day, but have been having questions is all.
     
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  5. RD1

    RD1 Writer SPNer

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    Interesting questions. Its always useful to be critical and reflect on things.
    Overall though I would say, perhaps its best to focus most on the messages that Sikhi gives, on the actual teachings. See how the actual teachings resonate with you.
     
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  6. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh Mentor Writer SPNer

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    Don't be silly! Read your own post first. You claimed to have the enlightenment when you started it, not me. I never said you did not know anything. As Sikhi did not stop in time like other religions, it is always evolving and shall be. That is its beauty. It is not about the definition but about the understanding.

    Stop being so touchy. I have no idea why you feel so offended. No one is putting you down. The answers are as straightforward as your questions.

    One can only answer the above if you define what your concept of god is. Sikhi has no god as other religions see it as mentioned before. Sikhi has no deity, hence no commandments like the Abrahamic god and others.

    Yes, I agree, it is all manmade.

    It matters naught to me who you are.

    Relish your journey. If you have any other questions, please do not hesitate to ask.

    Thanks
     
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  7. Kully

    Kully SPNer

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    Gurbani talks about heaven and hell as actual entities. Unlike the Abrahamic religions, it is not a place of permanancy. Gurbani tells us that also the womb is hell, and reincarnation is hell.

    Not in the Abrahamic sense in that there is only one day sometime in the future. For a Sikh everyday is judgement day.


    SGGS is very clear on reincarnation of the soul. It says it in Japji Sahib and Sohila.

    No miracles? The Gurus performed many actions that were miraculous. These miracles were not for their own gains but to remind Man of his reason for this birth.

    Is this shabad prophetic:

    ਤਿਲੰਗ ਮਹਲਾ ੧
    Tilang, First Mehla:
    ਜੈਸੀ ਮੈ ਆਵੈ ਖਸਮ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਤੈਸੜਾ ਕਰੀ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਵੇ ਲਾਲੋ
    As the Word of the Forgiving Lord comes to me, so do I express it, O Lalo.
    ਪਾਪ ਕੀ ਜੰਞ ਲੈ ਕਾਬਲਹੁ ਧਾਇਆ ਜੋਰੀ ਮੰਗੈ ਦਾਨੁ ਵੇ ਲਾਲੋ
    Bringing the marriage party of sin, Babar has invaded from Kaabul, demanding our land as his wedding gift, O Lalo.
    ਸਰਮੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਦੁਇ ਛਪਿ ਖਲੋਏ ਕੂੜੁ ਫਿਰੈ ਪਰਧਾਨੁ ਵੇ ਲਾਲੋ
    Modesty and righteousness both have vanished, and falsehood struts around like a leader, O Lalo.
    ਕਾਜੀਆ ਬਾਮਣਾ ਕੀ ਗਲ ਥਕੀ ਅਗਦੁ ਪੜੈ ਸੈਤਾਨੁ ਵੇ ਲਾਲੋ
    The Qazis and the Brahmins have lost their roles, and Satan now conducts the marriage rites, O Lalo.
    ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨੀਆ ਪੜਹਿ ਕਤੇਬਾ ਕਸਟ ਮਹਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਵੇ ਲਾਲੋ
    The Muslim women read the Koran, and in their misery, they call upon God, O Lalo.
    ਜਾਤਿ ਸਨਾਤੀ ਹੋਰਿ ਹਿਦਵਾਣੀਆ ਏਹਿ ਭੀ ਲੇਖੈ ਲਾਇ ਵੇ ਲਾਲੋ
    The Hindu women of high social status, and others of lowly status as well, are put into the same category, O Lalo.
    ਖੂਨ ਕੇ ਸੋਹਿਲੇ ਗਾਵੀਅਹਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਤੁ ਕਾ ਕੁੰਗੂ ਪਾਇ ਵੇ ਲਾਲੋ ॥੧॥
    The wedding songs of murder are sung, O Nanak, and blood is sprinkled instead of saffron, O Lalo. ||1||
    ਸਾਹਿਬ ਕੇ ਗੁਣ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਗਾਵੈ ਮਾਸ ਪੁਰੀ ਵਿਚਿ ਆਖੁ ਮਸੋਲਾ
    Nanak sings the Glorious Praises of the Lord and Master in the city of corpses, and voices this account.
    ਜਿਨਿ ਉਪਾਈ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਵਾਈ ਬੈਠਾ ਵੇਖੈ ਵਖਿ ਇਕੇਲਾ
    The One who created, and attached the mortals to pleasures, sits alone, and watches this.
    ਸਚਾ ਸੋ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਚੁ ਤਪਾਵਸੁ ਸਚੜਾ ਨਿਆਉ ਕਰੇਗੁ ਮਸੋਲਾ
    The Lord and Master is True, and True is His justice. He issues His Commands according to His judgement.
    ਕਾਇਆ ਕਪੜੁ ਟੁਕੁ ਟੁਕੁ ਹੋਸੀ ਹਿਦੁਸਤਾਨੁ ਸਮਾਲਸੀ ਬੋਲਾ
    The body-fabric will be torn apart into shreds, and then India will remember these words.
    ਆਵਨਿ ਅਠਤਰੈ ਜਾਨਿ ਸਤਾਨਵੈ ਹੋਰੁ ਭੀ ਉਠਸੀ ਮਰਦ ਕਾ ਚੇਲਾ
    Coming in seventy-eight (1521 A.D.), they will depart in ninety-seven (1540 A.D.), and then another disciple of man will rise up.

    ਸਚ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਆਖੈ ਸਚੁ ਸੁਣਾਇਸੀ ਸਚ ਕੀ ਬੇਲਾ ॥੨॥੩॥੫॥
    Nanak speaks the Word of Truth; he proclaims the Truth at this, the right time. ||2||3||5||

    No Sir, Gurmat was revealed by Guru Nanak but created on Wahegurus order. Guru Sahibans say time and time that they act on the instructions of Sri Kaal Purkh only.


    If we go by your words and use the word "flaw", that flaw is still existent today. Does that mean that the Gurus were therefore unsuccessful that they couldn't eradicate this flaw ?

    Gurmat was not borne from the flaws of others.
     
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  8. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh Mentor Writer SPNer

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    Please post full Shabads with the page numbers from the SGGS, our only Guru, with your own understanding as the English translations are misleading.

    Please post full Shabads with the page numbers from the SGGS, our only Guru, with your own understanding as the English translations are misleading.

    Please post full Shabads with the page numbers from the SGGS, our only Guru, with your own understanding as the English translations are misleading.

    One can see quite vividly that you are confused about the difference between prophetic and prophecy, just like in miraculous and a miracle. If you are not aware of the difference, please check it out.

    The above Shabad is history with foresight based on the events of that time. It is not any prophecy because Sikhi has none.
     
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    Last edited: Feb 26, 2018
  9. japjisahib04

    japjisahib04 Mentor SPNer

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    In addition it is not coming in 78 and going 97.
    Before this line there is a pankti, 'ਕਾਇਆ ਕਪੜੁ ਟੁਕੁ ਟੁਕੁ ਹੋਸੀ ਹਿਦੁਸਤਾਨੁ ਸਮਾਲਸੀ ਬੋਲਾ ॥ Once ‘kaeya kapad’ the physical body is cut into pieces, then who cares or will remain to remember the words. Thus pankti does not relate to physical body. I humbly suggest that history is always tentative but Gurbani is not. It cannot be limited to one time only and Guru sahib cannot go against his own consciously awareness and make prophecy. Is guru nanak referring to some historical event or is telling me that his historical incidence can happen on me when I ignore the truth.

    In japjisahib guru sahib says, ''nanak hukmi avoh jae once I acquire His traits my deficiencies ends. Similarly to me ਆਵਨਿ ਅਠਤਰੈ ਜਾਨਿ ਸਤਾਨਵੈ ਹੋਰੁ ਭੀ ਉਠਸੀ ਮਰਦ ਕਾ ਚੇਲਾ ॥ unlike yogies who believed to fix their 'atha' (two legs, two thighs, two arms, skull, chest) through lom vilom, guru sahib says once our manh (thought process) is fixed by imbibing his virtues in the ocean of sat+aanvai - truth - ਗੁਰੁ ਦਰੀਆਉ ਸਦਾ ਜਲੁ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਮਿਲਿਆ ਦੁਰਮਤਿ ਮੈਲੁ ਹਰੈ GS 1329.1 , our mission is complete whereas those who ignore shall remain victim of duality. And by following this 'gur' - the technique 'hor bhi uthsi mard ka cheyla all other deficiencies goes and manh knows how to combat with evil ਹਉ ਗੋਸਾਈ ਦਾ ਪਹਿਲਵਾਨੜਾ ॥ 74-8. Baba nanak says to Lalo. is many came and many went and many more will rise again.I t is linked with nank humki avoh jaey.
     
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  10. Harkiran Kaur

    Harkiran Kaur

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    Actually Gurbani speaks of heaven and hell as metaphors. Hell for a Sikh is being separated from Akal Purakh. It’s not some physical place of fire and brimstone.

    In Gurbani reality exists as both unmanifest as ONE and Manifest as ALL. The ALL is 100% within the ONE. And in turn the ONE is 100% within the ALL.

    Creation was born of the light and the light is in the creation.

    Gurbani also speaks about the Gurmukh knowing their OWN self and that He is Me. Now if it’s saying that the divine resides within all of us, and that is our true identity, the atma is part of the paramatma, then how can there be a physical heaven or hell? We’re already in oneness with Creator. It’s only through this dream or the manifest we experience things as separate but they really aren’t. It’s like the drop of water from the ocean. It was never separated from the ocean, it only thought it was.

    In this way there can not be a heaven or hell or even reincarnation in the commonly understood meanings. Because there is only ONE of us ultimately here.

    This idea of physical heaven and hells and Devi’s and Devtas and avatars etc. are all perpetuated by your favourite Granth only and not Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. They are not part of Sikhi.

     
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  11. seekingsikhi

    seekingsikhi Writer SPNer

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    I think Christianity's biggest issue is that they've forgotten their guru and his message. They don't worship God anymore, they worship Jesus because of the declarations of the Council of Nicaea that Jesus and God were the same person somehow. Christianity fails because they give in to the same stone idol worship that Guru Nanak spoke against. If they focused on connecting with the nature of God and destroying duality they could live up to Jesus' example, but instead they go with pomp and circumstance and fall further and further into the Maya of their own righteousness. Obviously not all Christians fit this description, but as an institution they need to get back to basics. And frankly so do we in some regards.

    The problem here is that many have, unfortunately; and they have all turned out to be frauds or crazies. It's possible someone out there does have that same divine connection, but like many of the Gurus they aren't going to bother with some kind of mass marketing of the word; preferring instead intimate settings and humility. Consider the transition between Guru Harkrishan Ji and Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji. Many others came forward in Bakala claiming to be the next Guru, while Guru Tegh Bahadur sat patiently and worked the fields. Had he taken to the stage and proclaimed himself guru and worked miracle after miracle to prove it, he wouldn't have been the guru because he would have been going against the teachings of the previous gurus.
     
  12. chazSingh

    chazSingh Writer SPNer

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    Hey HArkiran,

    Long time...hope you're well Sister!

    that re-incarnation subject :)

    in Gurbani...Guru Ji is always talking to the mind..."oh my mind..."
    the mind is the sikh..the mind takes on the character in the play (Ego) and a person is born....as you say behind it all...the atma, is really waheguru Himself.. :) as their is no other...

    so re-incarnation being the mind taking on new forms, based on experiences, habits, actions carried out in previous characters of the play...

    the mind has to accept that there is only one....the character is temporary...and thus kind of die......if it 'really' does this...we merge...
    until this occurs...who knows what the mind will create, what experiences it will have...good, bad...heaven, hell whatever you want to call it.....something will be experienced during the seperation..

    seriously...as i know you also have explored within...i just think creation is endless...so vast...all of us (minds) are driving it's creation...who knows what exists, where, in what form...realms, dimensions...
     
  13. chazSingh

    chazSingh Writer SPNer

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    good post...
    very interesting...and to be honest....many many sikhs would go along with this notion...just another man made religion...nothing to it....
    and so, most people will just live their lives...but hope they do enough good to get a place in some kind of heaven just in case their really is a God...lol :)

    So what does one find when they open the SGGS Ji? seriously...when i first opened it and read it (aged 24)...i was gobsmacked...
    what i read was so intriguing, and what i loved was that....if i really want to see if it was True...i could...by following it's methods...whilst alive, in this life...not after death

    So, at least you can prove to yourself...if it's nonsense...or if it's real...that's the beauty of it...

    and yes...if you do get your own proof that it's for real...everyone...even other Sikhs will call you crazy...they will say you're smoking Drugs, taking the spiritual Bong, floating to cloud 9 etc etc...:)

    but you know what...you'll have your proof, and what you say could inspire someone else...even if it's only one other person...you may find there are others that have had similar experiences...as i did...

    or it could be bullsh*t ... but at least you'll know...and you made the effort to be a spiritual scientist and sit the experiment..
     
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  14. CHANDANJEET SINGH KHALSA

    CHANDANJEET SINGH KHALSA SPNer

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    guru nank dev ji said " patalan patal lakh agasan agaas
    udak udak bhaal thakeh ved kahen it vaat"

    guru nanak proved scientifically in his time that there are several earth in this galaxy like this one.
     
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  15. Truthsikher31

    Truthsikher31 SPNer

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    See that's kind of where I have the problem, when you say "just focus on the message that Sikhi gives". Honestly, I've been watching videos on YouTube (Jagraj Singh - basics of sikhi - and though I dont agree a lot of what he says - R.I.P), I've been reading forums of what the Sikhi world is posting, Facebook comments. And its crazy how the "word" of Sikhi is defined. Don't care what anyone says, Sikhi is a religion. It's organized, peaceful, has a place of worship. So being a religion it should have a purpose, a message on how to live or how be a human being. Now for one minute if we can agree that the main message is "be good, and do good'. Please, I dont want definitions of whats good. Its common sense. The reason behind my post is that, if the main message behind every religion is the same, then there is no need for religion. But every religion even Sikhism, says the message was delivered from God, not just the good points, but every word uttered in SGGS is from God. But the idea of God spread through out the world, and before it did it had an origin. If you go back to the beginning of Christianity, as far back as Egypt times. Look at what was going on in India. There were no Hindus, Muslims, or Sikhs. You had these tribes, who later also would become organized and start religion.

    Christianity has sooo many flaws, and a lot the facts to base its origin is flat out ridiculous. A woman gets pregnant without sex, and its the son of God. Meaning God put his seed in her without her knowing (Rape much). And if I keep using Christianity's example, God created the first two human beings (Adam and Eve), so why does he need to impregnate a woman. The thought of Jesus was much after mankind was "civilized". Jesus wasn't the first human on Earth, you had people living and breathing before him. Who were organized, had a language, some sense of fashion, entertainment, etc. So then has humans became spoiled and sinful, God sends Jesus to Earth to fix all, and not to forget the big Flood to. Utter nonsense. If today some girl gets pregnant and claims she didnt have sex, what would we call her. Easy - a liar.

    So again if the idea of religion started somewhere in Africa, and spread through out the world, because you know Christians love to spread the word of "God", then every religion created after it was influenced by it. And in every religion, every word delivered in their own respectful book, SGGS, Koran, Bible, etc. is the word of God, but if even one word is proven wrong, then that really questions the validity and existence of God. Now if you claim that "oh those holy books, words, etc." were created by man not God, then God was created by man. We as a world, as human race are so divided, and yes culture, geographic location does factor in, but religion is also clearly the cause for chaos in the world. Don't sit here and say that Sikhi didn't have any cause for wars in India. Sure your defense might be that what Sikhi was trying to deliver was peaceful, but won't every religion say that to. It caused separation. Sorry I went little off topic to your reply - RD1, but religion and all its rules are not needed. We as a human beings have been on this planet for 1000s of years. The world has seen the massacres its created, and for the most part has tried to correct itself. And uses common sense to go about things. Sikhi is no different, and no more special than the next.

    I always find if fascinating that most Atheists probably come from a Christian background. And they always question God, religion, etc. But in Sikhi, in Punjabji culture, you can't even question. Questioning the Gurus, SGGS, is like a death sentence. I'm sure that newer generations will try to use their minds more, instead of fairy tails from previous generations. More I can say, but I think I can add more points to some of the other comments.
     
  16. Aman Singh

    Aman Singh Admin SPNer

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    Dear @Truthsikher31 ji

    You are judging Sikhi from the crooked prism of misleading Vedic or Abrahamic interpretations. A philosophy, which has its roots firmly in immersed in applying common-sense and questioning everything... so judging it within the cultural boundaries of particular region is a little shortsightedness IMHO.

    This very forum, which has its roots firmly rooted in Punjab, is the epitome of preciously opposite of all your notions. We firmly denounce all such fairly tales and anything which is inconsistent to common sense. I would request to spend sometime at SPN and read some of the threads. You will be pleasantly surprised. But you will have to spend sometime to discover these hidden nuggets. :)

    Available English translations/transliterations do little justice to real Sikh philosophy and with due respect, most of the English speakers do even the worst job. So, your job is a little cut-out, being not from a non-Punjabi speaking and understanding background.

    First step in learning would to be start from a clean slate... i.e. de-learning & re-learning.
    A good starting point would be starting from Jup banee, the epitome of Sikh Philosophy. And good thing is that the followin discourse is in simple understandable English.

    Understanding Jup Banee 1 | Dr. Karminder Singh Dhillon

    All the best!
     
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  17. RD1

    RD1 Writer SPNer

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    Its great to explore these various sources and opinions regarding Sikhi. It aids in obtaining a more comprehensive perspective, and in keeping our eye critical. However, we must also go to the actual source, the ultimate source - the SGGS ji - and interpret it for ourselves. Focus primarily on the messages enclosed within the SGGS ji - not our modern day "religious structures and rituals." These too can have value, but they are all secondary. The answers within the SGGS ji may not come to us right away. It is to be contemplated.

    Christianity is actually not one of the oldest religions. Its 2000 years old. There are much much older religions out there including Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, and Taoism. Humans have been organizing into "religion" for a very very long time. The time period and context that a certain religion came about influences how it was practiced, and then how it was passed down. With time, the messages can become distorted.

    I have not studied Christianity thoroughly, but understanding the roots and origins could help to explain the stories. The stories may also be metaphors, and perhaps are not to be taken so literally - as many people do today with various religions. This too can distort meaning, and can make it difficult to determine validity. People really must explore it for themselves, and experience it for themselves. And ultimately, if one is doing this genuinely and thoughtfully, then we should respect their personal experiences, even if they may not exactly match with out own. Of course, there are exceptions, such as with "extremism."

    Or perhaps peoples interpretations of religion that are laced with ego, attachment, greed etc. is what more precisely is a cause for chaos in this world. It basically comes down to intolerance - whether you want to call something religion, beliefs, philosophy, or whatever, people will always have different opinions, and some will resort to violence when they are unable to tolerate and respect divergent views.

    Its always good to question. In fact, I believe Sikhi encourages us to question, think, reflect, contemplate.
    I don't know all the religions out there in an extensive degree. But I truly do view Sikhi as being quite simple, to the point, and it makes sense - even if not everyone completely agrees with each other regarding certain aspects of it - if they are truly diving into it with love in their hearts, then it is not necessarily our job to judge their personal experiences with Sikhi. The heart of it is not full of unnecessary doctrine. We people complicate it.

    I also agree with @Aman Singh 's statement regarding that we must be careful to not view Sikhi with an Abrahamic or Vedic lens - which is very apparent especially in the way that Sikhi is outwardly "organised." Those views have their own particular cultural lens that do not necessarily align with Sikhi.

    I ultimately see our exploration of Sikhi to be a very personal journey, that is forever evolving.
     
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  18. RD1

    RD1 Writer SPNer

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    This is absolutely vital. Clearing out the ways we have been conditioned to think, and opening our minds to something new.
     
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  19. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller SPNer

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    I do, I want definitions of what is good, because from where I am sitting, its not common sense, every action that we do has a consequence, a short term, and a long term one, what may be seen as good in the short term, may not be so good in the long term,
    you seem quite educated and intelligent, but even a moron like me can see that all religions are not the same, most advocate a carrot and stick approach, some promise untold bliss and riches, some use huge amounts of fear, some huge amounts of reward, some both, some say you spend eternity with god, some that you die, even within one single religion, things are not the same, in Sikhism some have a Vedic slant, some have an Abrahamic slant, some have an atheist slant.

    now now, its easy to throw stones at other religions, within our religion we also have our own contradictions, a religion that believes in equality for the sexes, that also bans women from certain activities, a religion that does not believe in superstitions that contains some of the most superstitious people in the world, a religion against miracles, that has umpteen stories about miracles, live and let live eh,

    ok, again, you seem quite intelligent and with it, I am surprised you have never heard of surrogate mothers that carry fertilized eggs, they get pregnant without having sex......

    did it? in Africa? why what is special about Africa? Aids and religion, I suppose there has to be a balance, religion was started when man first walked the earth and worshiped the sun, and Christians spread the word of God because it is a bit like pyramid selling, the more you get in, the closer to god you get when your dead, that is their belief, good luck to them.

    This is one of the few sites on the internet that advocates free thinking and questioning within Sikhism, there is no death sentence, many points have been raised on this forum and many have been discussed, and in any case, even atheism is a religion, every atheist needs the concept of God in which not to believe in
     
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  20. Kully

    Kully SPNer

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    I'm not confused. Thats just a convenient answer for you, as it avoids answering the statement.

    Call it a foresight if it helps you. It is still a prophecy. Look up the meaning of prophecy as you seemed confused by it.


    You claim to know what it isn't, but can't/don't say what it is?


    Who said anything about it being a physical body? Read the remainder of the sentence and you will see what body it refers to.


    Let's see some shabads that show heaven and hell as metaphors only.

    This hell and incarnation seems very real:

    ਗਉੜੀ ਗੁਆਰੇਰੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫
    Gauree Gwaarayree, Fifth Mehla:
    ਬਿਆਪਤ ਹਰਖ ਸੋਗ ਬਿਸਥਾਰ
    ਕਿਤੇ ਖ਼ੁਸ਼ੀ ਗ਼ਮੀ ਦਾ ਖਿਲਾਰਾ ਹੈ,
    It torments us with the expression of pleasure and pain.
    ਬਿਆਪਤ ਸੁਰਗ ਨਰਕ ਅਵਤਾਰ
    ਕਿਤੇ ਜੀਵ ਨਰਕਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਪੈਂਦੇ ਹਨ, ਕਿਤੇ ਸੁਰਗਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਪਹੁੰਚਦੇ ਹਨ,
    It torments us through incarnations in heaven and hell.

    ਬਿਆਪਤ ਧਨ ਨਿਰਧਨ ਪੇਖਿ ਸੋਭਾ
    ਕਿਤੇ ਕੋਈ ਧਨ ਵਾਲੇ ਹਨ, ਕਿਤੇ ਕੰਗਾਲ ਹਨ, ਕਿਤੇ ਕੋਈ ਆਪਣੀ ਸੋਭਾ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਵੇਖ ਕੇ (ਖ਼ੁਸ਼ ਹਨ)—ਇਹਨਾਂ ਅਨੇਕਾਂ ਤਰੀਕਿਆਂ ਨਾਲ ਮਾਇਆ ਜੀਵਾਂ ਉਤੇ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਵ ਪਾ ਰਹੀ ਹੈ ।
    It is seen to afflict the rich, the poor and the glorious.
    ਮੂਲੁ ਬਿਆਧੀ ਬਿਆਪਸਿ ਲੋਭਾ ॥੧॥
    ਕਿਤੇ ਸਾਰੇ ਰੋਗਾਂ ਦਾ ਮੂਲ ਲੋਭ ਬਣ ਕੇ ਮਾਇਆ ਆਪਣਾ ਜ਼ੋਰ ਪਾ ਰਹੀ ਹੈ ।੧।
    The source of this illness which torments us is greed. ||1||
    ਮਾਇਆ ਬਿਆਪਤ ਬਹੁ ਪਰਕਾਰੀ
    ਹੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ! (ਤੇਰੀ ਰਚੀ) ਮਾਇਆ ਅਨੇਕਾਂ ਤਰੀਕਿਆਂ ਨਾਲ (ਜੀਵਾਂ ਉਤੇ) ਪ੍ਰਭਾਵ ਪਾਈ ਰੱਖਦੀ ਹੈ (ਤੇ ਆਤਮਕ ਮੌਤੇ ਜੀਵਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਮਾਰ ਦੇਂਦੀ ਹੈ),
    Maya torments us in so many ways.
    ਸੰਤ ਜੀਵਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਓਟ ਤੁਮਾਰੀ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
    ਤੇਰੇ ਸੰਤ ਤੇਰੇ ਆਸਰੇ ਆਤਮਕ ਜੀਵਨ ਮਾਣਦੇ ਹਨ ।੧।ਰਹਾਉ।
    But the Saints live under Your Protection, God. ||1||Pause||
    ਬਿਆਪਤ ਅਹੰਬੁਧਿ ਕਾ ਮਾਤਾ
    ਕਿਤੇ ਕੋਈ ‘ਹਉ ਹਉ, ਮੈਂ ਮੈਂ’ ਦੀ ਅਕਲ ਵਿਚ ਮਸਤ ਹੈ,
    It torments us through intoxication with intellectual pride.
    ਬਿਆਪਤ ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਕਲਤ੍ਰ ਸੰਗਿ ਰਾਤਾ
    ਕਿਤੇ ਕੋਈ ਪੁੱਤਰ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਦੇ ਮੋਹ ਵਿਚ ਰੱਤਾ ਪਿਆ ਹੈ,
    It torments us through the love of children and spouse.
    ਬਿਆਪਤ ਹਸਤਿ ਘੋੜੇ ਅਰੁ ਬਸਤਾ
    ਕਿਤੇ ਹਾਥੀ ਘੋੜਿਆਂ (ਸੁੰਦਰ) ਕੱਪੜਿਆਂ (ਦੀ ਲਗਨ ਹੈ),
    It torments us through elephants, horses and beautiful clothes.
    ਬਿਆਪਤ ਰੂਪ ਜੋਬਨ ਮਦ ਮਸਤਾ ॥੨॥
    ਕਿਤੇ ਕੋਈ ਰੂਪ ਤੇ ਜਵਾਨੀ ਦੇ ਨਸ਼ੇ ਵਿਚ ਮਸਤ ਹੈ—ਇਹਨਾਂ ਅਨੇਕਾਂ ਤਰੀਕਿਆਂ ਨਾਲ ਮਾਇਆ ਆਪਣਾ ਜ਼ੋਰ ਪਾ ਰਹੀ ਹੈ ।੨।
    It torments us through the intoxication of wine and the beauty of youth. ||2||
    ਬਿਆਪਤ ਭੂਮਿ ਰੰਕ ਅਰੁ ਰੰਗਾ
    ਕਿਤੇ ਭੁਇਂ ਦੀ ਮਾਲਕੀ ਹੈ, ਕਿਤੇ ਕੰਗਾਲ ਹਨ, ਕਿਤੇ ਅਮੀਰ ਹਨ,
    It torments landlords, paupers and lovers of pleasure.
    ਬਿਆਪਤ ਗੀਤ ਨਾਦ ਸੁਣਿ ਸੰਗਾ
    ਕਿਤੇ ਮੰਡਲੀਆਂ ਵਿਚ ਗੀਤ ਨਾਦ ਸੁਣ ਕੇ (ਖ਼ੁਸ਼ ਹੋ ਰਹੇ ਹਨ),
    It torments us through the sweet sounds of music and parties.
    ਬਿਆਪਤ ਸੇਜ ਮਹਲ ਸੀਗਾਰ
    ਕਿਤੇ (ਸੋਹਣੀ) ਸੇਜ, ਹਾਰ-ਸਿੰਗਾਰ ਤੇ ਮਹਲ-ਮਾੜੀਆਂ (ਦੀ ਲਾਲਸਾ ਹੈ), ਇਹਨਾਂ ਅਨੇਕਾਂ ਤਰੀਕਿਆਂ ਨਾਲ ਮਾਇਆ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਵ ਪਾ ਰਹੀ ਹੈ ।
    It torments us through beautiful beds, palaces and decorations.
    ਪੰਚ ਦੂਤ ਬਿਆਪਤ ਅੰਧਿਆਰ ॥੩॥
    ਕਿਤੇ ਮੋਹ ਦੇ ਹਨੇਰੇ ਵਿਚ ਕਾਮਾਦਿਕ ਪੰਜੇ ਦੂਤ ਬਣ ਕੇ ਮਾਇਆ ਜ਼ੋਰ ਪਾ ਰਹੀ ।੩।
    It torments us through the darkness of the five evil passions. ||3||
    ਬਿਆਪਤ ਕਰਮ ਕਰੈ ਹਉ ਫਾਸਾ
    ਕਿਤੇ ਕੋਈ ਹਉਮੈ ਵਿਚ ਫਸਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ (ਆਪਣੇ ਵਲੋਂ ਧਾਰਮਿਕ) ਕੰਮ ਕਰ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ,
    It torments those who act, entangled in ego.
    ਬਿਆਪਤਿ ਗਿਰਸਤ ਬਿਆਪਤ ਉਦਾਸਾ
    ਕੋਈ ਗ੍ਰਿਹਸਤ ਵਿਚ ਪ੍ਰਵਿਰਤ ਹੈ, ਕੋਈ ਉਦਾਸੀ ਰੂਪ ਵਿਚ ਹੈ,
    It torments us through household affairs, and it torments us in renunciation.
    ਆਚਾਰ ਬਿਉਹਾਰ ਬਿਆਪਤ ਇਹ ਜਾਤਿ
    ਕਿਤੇ ਕੋਈ ਧਾਰਮਿਕ ਰਸਮਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਪ੍ਰਵਿਰਤ ਹੈ, ਕੋਈ (ਉੱਚੀ) ਜਾਤਿ ਦੇ ਮਾਣ ਵਿਚ ਹੈ
    It torments us through character, lifestyle and social status.
    ਸਭ ਕਿਛੁ ਬਿਆਪਤ ਬਿਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗ ਰਾਤ ॥੪॥
    ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੇ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਵਿਚ ਮਗਨ ਹੋਣ ਤੋਂ ਵਾਂਜੇ ਰਹਿ ਕੇ ਇਹ ਸਭ ਕੁਝ ਮਾਇਆ ਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਵ ਹੀ ਹੈ ।੪।
    It torments us through everything, except for those who are imbued with the Love of the Lord. ||4||
    ਸੰਤਨ ਕੇ ਬੰਧਨ ਕਾਟੇ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਇ
    ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਸੰਤ ਜਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਮਾਇਆ ਦੇ ਬੰਧਨ ਕੱਟ ਦੇਂਦਾ ਹੈ ।
    The Sovereign Lord King has cut away the bonds of His Saints.
    ਤਾ ਕਉ ਕਹਾ ਬਿਆਪੈ ਮਾਇ
    ਉਹਨਾਂ ਉਤੇ ਮਾਇਆ ਆਪਣਾ ਜ਼ੋਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਪਾ ਸਕਦੀ ।
    How can Maya torment them?
    ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਨਿ ਧੂਰਿ ਸੰਤ ਪਾਈ ਤਾ ਕੈ ਨਿਕਟਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਮਾਈ ॥੫॥੧੯॥੮੮॥
    ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ ! ਆਖ—ਜਿਸ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਨੇ ਸੰਤ ਜਨਾਂ ਦੇ ਚਰਨਾਂ ਦੀ ਧੂੜ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤ ਕਰ ਲਈ ਹੈ, ਮਾਇਆ ਉਸ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਦੇ ਨੇੜੇ ਨਹੀਂ ਢੁੱਕ ਸਕਦੀ ।੪।੧੯।੮੮।
    Says Nanak, Maya does not draw near those who have obtained the dust of the feet of the Saints. ||5||19||88||

    But we are never separate from Sri Kaal Purkh.

    ਪਵੜੀ
    Pauree:
    ਬਦਫੈਲੀ ਗੈਬਾਨਾ ਖਸਮੁ ਨ ਜਾਣਈ
    (ਜੋ ਮਨੁੱਖ) ਲੁਕ ਕੇ ਪਾਪ ਕਮਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਮਾਲਕ ਨੂੰ (ਹਰ ਥਾਂ ਹਾਜ਼ਰ ਨਾਜ਼ਰ) ਨਹੀਂ ਸਮਝਦਾ,
    The foolish demon, who does evil deeds, does not know his Lord and Master.
    ਸੋ ਕਹੀਐ ਦੇਵਾਨਾ ਆਪੁ ਨ ਪਛਾਣਈ
    ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਪਾਗਲ ਕਹਿਣਾ ਚਾਹੀਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਹ ਆਪਣੇ ਅਸਲੇ ਨੂੰ ਪਛਾਣਦਾ ਨਹੀਂ ।
    Call him a mad-man, if he does not understand himself.
    ਕਲਹਿ ਬੁਰੀ ਸੰਸਾਰਿ ਵਾਦੇ ਖਪੀਐ
    ਜਗਤ ਵਿਚ (ਵਿਕਾਰਾਂ ਦੀ) ਬਿਖਾਂਧ (ਐਸੀ) ਚੰਦਰੀ ਹੈ (ਵਿਕਾਰਾਂ ਵਿਚ ਪਿਆ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਵਿਕਾਰਾਂ ਦੇ) ਝੰਬੇਲੇ ਵਿਚ ਹੀ ਖਪਦਾ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ
    The strife of this world is evil; these struggles are consuming it.
    ਵਿਣੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਵੇਕਾਰਿ ਭਰਮੇ ਪਚੀਐ
    ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਛੱਡ ਕੇ ਮੰਦ ਕਰਮ ਤੇ ਭਟਕਣਾ ਵਿਚ ਖ਼ੁਆਰ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ ।
    Without the Lord's Name, life is worthless. Through doubt, the people are being destroyed.
    ਰਾਹ ਦੋਵੈ ਇਕੁ ਜਾਣੈ ਸੋਈ ਸਿਝਸੀ
    (ਮਨੁੱਖਾ ਜੀਵਨ ਦੇ) ਦੋ ਰਸਤੇ ਹਨ (ਮਾਇਆ ਤੇ ਨਾਮ), ਇਸ (ਜੀਵਨ ਵਿਚ) ਉਹੀ ਕਾਮਯਾਬ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ ਜੋ (ਦੋਹਾਂ ਰਸਤਿਆਂ ਵਿਚੋਂ) ਇਕ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਨੂੰੂ ਚੇਤੇ ਰੱਖਦਾ ਹੈ,
    One who recognizes that all spiritual paths lead to the One shall be emancipated.
    ਕੁਫਰ ਗੋਅ ਕੁਫਰਾਣੈ ਪਇਆ ਦਝਸੀ
    (ਨਹੀਂ ਤਾਂ) ਝੂਠ ਵਿਚ ਗ਼ਲਤਾਨ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੀ ਸੜਦਾ ਹੈ ।
    One who speaks lies shall fall into hell and burn.

    ਸਭ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਸੁਬਹਾਨੁ ਸਚਿ ਸਮਾਈਐ
    ਜੋ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਸਦਾ ਕਾਇਮ ਰਹਿਣ ਵਾਲੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਵਿਚ ਜੁੜਿਆ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੈ, ਉਸ ਲਈ ਸਾਰਾ ਜਗਤ ਸੋਹਣਾ ਹੈ,
    In all the world, the most blessed and sanctified are those who remain absorbed in Truth.
    ਸਿਝੈ ਦਰਿ ਦੀਵਾਨਿ ਆਪੁ ਗਵਾਈਐ ॥੯॥
    ਉਹ ਖ਼ੁਦੀ ਮਿਟਾ ਕੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੇ ਦਰ ਤੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦੀ ਦਰਗਾਹ ਵਿਚ ਸੁਰਖ਼ਰੂ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ ।੯।
    One who eliminates selfishness and conceit is redeemed in the Court of the Lord. ||9||
     
  21. Kully

    Kully SPNer

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    Agreed. Look at the highlighted text and ask why Guru Sahib would give such vivid descriptions if none were true?

    ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ੪
    Shalok, Fourth Mehla:
    ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਵਿਚਿ ਵਡੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਜੋ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਵੈ
    ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਵਿਚ ਇਹ ਭਾਰਾ ਗੁਣ ਹੈ ਕਿ ਉਹ ਹਰ ਰੋਜ਼ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ-ਨਾਮ ਦਾ ਸਿਮਰਨ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ
    Great is the greatness within the True Guru, who meditates night and day on the Name of the Lord, Har, Har.
    ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਰਮਤ ਸੁਚ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੇ ਹੀ ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤਾਵੈ
    ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਸੱੁਚ ਤੇ ਸੰਜਮ ਹਰਿ-ਨਾਮ ਦਾ ਜਾਪ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਉਹ ਹਰਿ-ਨਾਮ ਵਿਚ ਹੀ ਤ੍ਰਿਪਤ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹ
    The repetition of the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, is his purity and self-restraint; with the Name of the Lord, He is satisfied.
    ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਤਾਣੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਦੀਬਾਣੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੋ ਰਖ ਕਰਾਵੈ
    ਹਰਿ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਹੀ ਆਸਰਾ ਤੇ ਨਾਮ ਹੀ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਲਈ ਰੱਖਿਆ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲਾ ਹੈ
    The Lord's Name is His power, and the Lord's Name is His Royal Court; the Lord's Name protects Him.
    ਜੋ ਚਿਤੁ ਲਾਇ ਪੂਜੇ ਗੁਰ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਸੋ ਮਨ ਇਛੇ ਫਲ ਪਾਵੈ
    ਜੋ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਇਸ ਗੁਰ-ਮੂਰਤੀ ਦਾ ਪੂਜਨ ਚਿੱਤ ਲਾ ਕੇ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ (ਭਾਵ, ਜੋ ਜੀਵ ਗਹੁ ਨਾਲ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਉਪਰ-ਲਿਖੇ ਗੁਣਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਧਾਰਨ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ) ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਉਹੀ ਫਲ ਮਿਲ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਦੀ ਮਨ ਵਿਚ ਇੱਛਾ ਕਰੇ ।
    One who centers his consciousness and worships the Guru, obtains the fruits of his mind's desires.
    ਜੋ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਕਰੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪੂਰੇ ਕੀ ਤਿਸੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਮਾਰ ਦਿਵਾਵੈ
    ਜੋ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਪੂਰੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਮਾਰ ਪਵਾਉਂਦਾ ਹ
    But one who slanders the Perfect True Guru, shall be killed and destroyed by the Creator.
    ਫੇਰਿ ਓਹ ਵੇਲਾ ਓਸੁ ਹਥਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਓਹੁ ਆਪਣਾ ਬੀਜਿਆ ਆਪੇ ਖਾਵੈ
    ਆਪਣੀ ਹੱਥੀਂ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਦਾ ਬੀਜ ਬੀਜੇ ਦਾ ਫਲ ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਭੋਗਣਾ ਪੈਂਦਾ ਹੈ (ਤਦੋਂ ਪਛਤਾਉਂਦਾ ਹੈ, ਪਰ) ਫੇਰ ਜੋ ਵੇਲਾ (ਨਿੰਦਾ ਕਰਨ ਵਿਚ ਬੀਤ ਗਿਆ ਹੈ) ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਮਿਲਦਾ ਨਹੀਂ,
    This opportunity shall not come into his hands again; he must eat what he himself has planted.
    ਨਰਕਿ ਘੋਰਿ ਮੁਹਿ ਕਾਲੈ ਖੜਿਆ ਜਿਉ ਤਸਕਰੁ ਪਾਇ ਗਲਾਵੈ
    ਤੇ ਜਿਵੇਂ ਚੋਰ ਨੂੰ ਗਲ ਵਿਚ ਰੱਸੀ ਪਾ ਕੇ ਲੈ ਜਾਈਦਾ ਹੈ ਤਿਵੇਂ ਕਾਲਾ ਮੂੰਹ ਕਰ ਕੇ (ਮਾਨੋ) ਡਰਾਉਣੇ ਨਰਕ ਵਿਚ (ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਭੀ) ਪਾਇਆ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ ।
    He shall be taken to the most horrible hell, with his face blackened like a thief, and a noose around his neck.

    ਫਿਰਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੀ ਸਰਣੀ ਪਵੈ ਤਾ ਉਬਰੈ ਜਾ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਵੈ
    ਫੇਰ ਇਸ (ਨਿੰਦਾ-ਰੂਪ ਘੋਰ ਨਰਕ ਵਿਚੋਂ) ਤਾਂ ਹੀ ਬਚਦਾ ਹੈ, ਜੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਸਰਨੀ ਪੈ ਕੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦਾ ਨਾਮ ਜਪੇ
    But if he should again take to the Sanctuary of the True Guru, and meditate on the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, then he shall be saved.
    ਹਰਿ ਬਾਤਾ ਆਖਿ ਸੁਣਾਏ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਹਰਿ ਕਰਤੇ ਏਵੈ ਭਾਵੈ ॥੧॥
    ਨਾਨਕ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ (ਦੇ ਦਰ) ਦੀਆਂ ਗੱਲਾਂ ਆਖ ਕੇ ਸੁਣਾ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ; ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਨੂੰ ਇਉਂ ਹੀ ਭਾਉਂਦਾ ਹੈ (ਕਿ ਨਿੰਦਕ ਈਰਖਾ ਦੇ ਨਰਕ ਵਿਚ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਪਿਆ ਸੜੇ) ।੧।
    Nanak speaks and proclaims the Lord's Story; as it pleases the Creator, so does he speak. ||1||

    Just as the divine resides in us, in this world. This planet that we have called Earth is existing right? It was created at some stage by Sri Sarab Kaal and at some stage in Sri Sarab Kaal's leela will be destroyed, but it does exist doesn't it? How can it exist physically if the divine is in us and the earth itself?

    Only earlier you were saying that hell is being separate from Sri Sarab Kaal.
     

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