Dominance Of Rituals In Sikh Religion

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Gyani Jarnail Singh

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IMHO the talk of 84 lac joonies cycle being destroyed by walking on 84 steps is to destroy the superstition of caste based differences . As a Baoli is standing water & as per Brahminical teachings the standing water gets polluted if a Shudra/Dalit bathes in it ( which is why all Brahminical pilgimages are on river bank where water is flowing not standing still ) . To destroy this wrong belief & to strike at the very roots of Brahminical philosophy , Guru Amardass ji declared to the Sikh Sangat the whosoever takes bathe in the BAOLI will get liberated from the cycle of 84 lac jooines which indirectly meant that whosoever is free from this caste bais is a liberated soul because he/she has got himself/herself free from the biggest impedient in way of spiritual upliftment which is discrimination based on CASTE OF BIRTH .

Dalbir Singh ji, Gurfateh ji.

BEAUTIFULLY PUT. THANK YOU.
Completely in line with GURMATT.:happy:
 
Jul 10, 2006
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re: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...e-of-rituals-in-sikh-religion.html#post109958
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...e-of-rituals-in-sikh-religion.html#post109975

Those who have been doing vichaar (in various degree or spiritual level) do understand that Gurbani does not limit joons to a finite number.

BUT this does not mean that Gurbani rejects reincarnation. If you are saying that sikhmarg is promoting this view than I say that sikhmarg is wrong.

I recommed sikhmarg writer to leave his householders life and run off to some hills away from the temptations of maya moh and start doing samadhi prompto as for him there is only one human life.

Human life, gurbani has made very clear is very difficult to get. Get from where??
 

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if human life was the only "path" to God, why did God even bother to create other animals, flora, fauna?
 

Tejwant Singh

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IMHO the talk of 84 lac joonies cycle being destroyed by walking on 84 steps is to destroy the superstition of caste based differences . As a Baoli is standing water & as per Brahminical teachings the standing water gets polluted if a Shudra/Dalit bathes in it ( which is why all Brahminical pilgimages are on river bank where water is flowing not standing still ) . To destroy this wrong belief & to strike at the very roots of Brahminical philosophy , Guru Amardass ji declared to the Sikh Sangat the whosoever takes bathe in the BAOLI will get liberated from the cycle of 84 lac jooines which indirectly meant that whosoever is free from this caste bais is a liberated soul because he/she has got himself/herself free from the biggest impedient in way of spiritual upliftment which is discrimination based on CASTE OF BIRTH .

Dalbirk ji,

Guru Fateh.

Interesting perspective, Thanks.
 

Tejwant Singh

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Sadh Sangat,

Guru Fateh.

Allow me to add my 2 cent worth regarding 84 lakh joons and reincarnation. Our Gurus talked in the language of the people who believed in different things depending on their beliefs, hence first and foremost they acknowledged their practices and rituals. Aarti, fasting, Hajj, Pilgrimages, 84 joons and reincarnation are a few examples.

After having acknowledged what the people practiced in their beliefs, our Gurus showed them what these things really mean and how they should be practiced. SGGS is full of these examples.

Now, coming back to 84 Lakh joons and reincarnation, after having acknowledged the said beliefs, our Gurus also mentioned in every Shabad regarding these 2 beliefs,that once a person who follows the Sikhi path, then he/she is liberated from these beliefs. In other words, studying and understanding Gurbani develops a mindset of pragmatism which helps us get rid of these kinds of beliefs which are meaningless.

We should remind ourselves as often as possible that beliefs can change anytime because all beliefs are based on subjective truths where as Sikhi is based on the objective truth. Mool Manter and the first pauri of Jap ji show us that. That is why I do not call Sikhi marg a belief system but a way of life or a lifestyle which shows that one is not born a Sikh but becomes one.


Tejwant Singh
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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re: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...e-of-rituals-in-sikh-religion.html#post109958
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...e-of-rituals-in-sikh-religion.html#post109975

Those who have been doing vichaar (in various degree or spiritual level) do understand that Gurbani does not limit joons to a finite number.

BUT this does not mean that Gurbani rejects reincarnation. If you are saying that sikhmarg is promoting this view than I say that sikhmarg is wrong.

I recommed sikhmarg writer to leave his householders life and run off to some hills away from the temptations of maya moh and start doing samadhi prompto as for him there is only one human life.

Human life, gurbani has made very clear is very difficult to get. Get from where??

BUT GURU NANAK JI SAHIB.."ran" all the way UP the Himalayas to TEACH the "samadhi entangled" sadhus/naaths.sidhs/Yogis that they are WRONG..and they should COME BACK DOWN..marry and have kids..and live like HOUSEHOLDERS.
YES we do have only...Gobind milan ee EH(u) teri barreah...and Gurmatt says a HOUSEHOLDERS LIFE is the BEST. Thats why ALL our Gurus married and lived a householders life.
RUNNING AWAY is the Cowards way out...a GURSIKH lives in the MAYA..and FIGHTS temptations...a LOTUS in the muddy POND.:happy:
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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if human life was the only "path" to God, why did God even bother to create other animals, flora, fauna?

Huck ji,
I CANNOT answer that..per se..
BUT
Gurbani does say that the HUMAN is bestowed the SIKDAREE over ALL others on this Earth.
And secondly Gurbani also states that EVEN the DEMI-GODS..need and SEEK a HUMAN BODY....reason being that only in HUMAN FORM can MUKTEE be realised- Merger with the Creator.

Can you imagine a EARTH with ONLY HUMANS..and NOTHING ELSE !! what "food"..what clothes..what development..what evolution ?? NO vege to eat..no trees for wood..no animals to hunt.. wouldnt humans be cannibals of necessity ?? would then humans be "farming" lesser humans for food ??GOSH..what a thought :mad::mad::mad:
 

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<Gurbani does say that the HUMAN is bestowed the SIKDAREE over ALL others on this Earth.>>
gyani ji

i never came across this

can you please share the reference?
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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<Gurbani does say that the HUMAN is bestowed the SIKDAREE over ALL others on this Earth.>>
gyani ji

i never came across this

can you please share the reference?

Huck Finn Ji,
Page 368 SGGS
“ਅਵਰ ਜੋਨਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਪਨਿਹਾਰੀ॥ ਇਸੁ ਧਰਤੀ ਮਹਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਸਿਕਦਾਰੀ॥” ਮ: 5 ਪੰਨਾ 374 Panharee measn servants..those who carry water for you..
sikdaree is lorship/sardaree.
The HUMAN is SIKDAAR..meaning up and above all other life forms.Human Life is special..foremost...peak of creation. This earth is for the human..to "rule over".Others serve YOU.
Imho such a concept is also present in the Bible...
 

Gyani Jarnail Singh

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At other places Guru ji declares..EVEN the Devtas, angels, demi-gods...SEEK and NEED the Human Body in order to escape this cycle of birth and death and merge with the Creator. This means the devtas etc are also lower in status to a GURMUKH.
ES dehi ko simreh DEV..."dehi" is human body !!
 
May 29, 2009
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Sat Sri Akal. Resently some family members went to Gurdwara Goindwal Sahib.They recited JAPGI SAHIB 84 times,once on each of the 84 steps of the sarover and took ishnaan after every recital.Is this the religion GURU NANAK proprgated? Pls.could someone throw some light on this ritual?
Nothing wrong in this.
Atleast those people recited the Japji Sahib 84 times. This surely is good for them.
 

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Gyani ji

One tuk can often be miscontrued when read out of reference and background.

Here is the complete shabd:

ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ਪੰਚਪਦੇ ॥
आसा महला ५ पंचपदे ॥
Āsā mėhlā 5 pancẖpaḏe.
Aasaa, Fifth Mehl, Panch-Padas:


ਪ੍ਰਥਮੇ ਤੇਰੀ ਨੀਕੀ ਜਾਤਿ ॥
प्रथमे तेरी नीकी जाति ॥
Parathme ṯerī nīkī jāṯ.
First, your social status is high.

ਦੁਤੀਆ ਤੇਰੀ ਮਨੀਐ ਪਾਂਤਿ ॥
दुतीआ तेरी मनीऐ पांति ॥
Ḏuṯī▫ā ṯerī manī▫ai pāʼnṯ.
Second, you are honored in society.

ਤ੍ਰਿਤੀਆ ਤੇਰਾ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਥਾਨੁ ॥
त्रितीआ तेरा सुंदर थानु ॥
Ŧariṯī▫ā ṯerā sunḏar thān.
Third, your home is beautiful.

ਬਿਗੜ ਰੂਪੁ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਅਭਿਮਾਨੁ ॥੧॥
बिगड़ रूपु मन महि अभिमानु ॥१॥
Bigaṛ rūp man mėh abẖimān. ||1||
But you are so ugly, with self-conceit in your mind. ||1||

ਸੋਹਨੀ ਸਰੂਪਿ ਸੁਜਾਣਿ ਬਿਚਖਨਿ ॥
सोहनी सरूपि सुजाणि बिचखनि ॥
Sohnī sarūp sujāṇ bicẖkẖan.
O beautiful, attractive, wise and clever woman:

ਅਤਿ ਗਰਬੈ ਮੋਹਿ ਫਾਕੀ ਤੂੰ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
अति गरबै मोहि फाकी तूं ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Aṯ garbai mohi fākī ṯūʼn. ||1|| rahā▫o.
you have been trapped by your pride and attachment. ||1||Pause||

ਅਤਿ ਸੂਚੀ ਤੇਰੀ ਪਾਕਸਾਲ ॥
अति सूची तेरी पाकसाल ॥
Aṯ sūcẖī ṯerī pāksāl.
Your kitchen is so clean.

ਕਰਿ ਇਸਨਾਨੁ ਪੂਜਾ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਲਾਲ ॥
करि इसनानु पूजा तिलकु लाल ॥
Kar isnān pūjā ṯilak lāl.
You take your bath, and worship, and apply the crimson mark upon your forehead;

ਗਲੀ ਗਰਬਹਿ ਮੁਖਿ ਗੋਵਹਿ ਗਿਆਨ ॥
गली गरबहि मुखि गोवहि गिआन ॥
Galī garbėh mukẖ govėh gi▫ān.
with your mouth you speak wisdom, but you are destroyed by pride.

ਸਭ ਬਿਧਿ ਖੋਈ ਲੋਭਿ ਸੁਆਨ ॥੨॥
सभ बिधि खोई लोभि सुआन ॥२॥
Sabẖ biḏẖ kẖo▫ī lobẖ su▫ān. ||2||
The dog of greed has ruined you in every way. ||2||

ਕਾਪਰ ਪਹਿਰਹਿ ਭੋਗਹਿ ਭੋਗ ॥
कापर पहिरहि भोगहि भोग ॥
Kāpar pahirahi bẖogėh bẖog.
You wear your robes and enjoy pleasures;

ਆਚਾਰ ਕਰਹਿ ਸੋਭਾ ਮਹਿ ਲੋਗ ॥
आचार करहि सोभा महि लोग ॥
Ācẖār karahi sobẖā mėh log.
you practice good conduct to impress people;

ਚੋਆ ਚੰਦਨ ਸੁਗੰਧ ਬਿਸਥਾਰ ॥
चोआ चंदन सुगंध बिसथार ॥
Cẖo▫ā cẖanḏan suganḏẖ bisthār.
you apply scented oils of sandalwood and musk,

ਸੰਗੀ ਖੋਟਾ ਕ੍ਰੋਧੁ ਚੰਡਾਲ ॥੩॥
संगी खोटा क्रोधु चंडाल ॥३॥
Sangī kẖotā kroḏẖ cẖandāl. ||3||
but your constant companion is the demon of anger. ||3||

ਅਵਰ ਜੋਨਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਪਨਿਹਾਰੀ ॥
अवर जोनि तेरी पनिहारी ॥
Avar jon ṯerī panihārī.
Other people may be your water-carriers;

ਇਸੁ ਧਰਤੀ ਮਹਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਸਿਕਦਾਰੀ ॥
इसु धरती महि तेरी सिकदारी ॥
Is ḏẖarṯī mėh ṯerī sikḏārī.
in this world, you may be a ruler.

ਸੁਇਨਾ ਰੂਪਾ ਤੁਝ ਪਹਿ ਦਾਮ ॥
सुइना रूपा तुझ पहि दाम ॥
Su▫inā rūpā ṯujẖ pėh ḏām.
Gold, silver and wealth may be yours,

ਸੀਲੁ ਬਿਗਾਰਿਓ ਤੇਰਾ ਕਾਮ ॥੪॥
सीलु बिगारिओ तेरा काम ॥४॥
Sīl bigāri▫o ṯerā kām. ||4||
but the goodness of your conduct has been destroyed by sexual promiscuity. ||4||

ਜਾ ਕਉ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਮਇਆ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਇ ॥
जा कउ द्रिसटि मइआ हरि राइ ॥
Jā ka▫o ḏarisat ma▫i▫ā har rā▫e.
That soul, upon whom the Lord has bestowed His Glance of Grace,

ਸਾ ਬੰਦੀ ਤੇ ਲਈ ਛਡਾਇ ॥
सा बंदी ते लई छडाइ ॥
Sā banḏī ṯe la▫ī cẖẖadā▫e.
is delivered from bondage.

ਸਾਧਸੰਗਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਹਰਿ ਰਸੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥
साधसंगि मिलि हरि रसु पाइआ ॥
Sāḏẖsang mil har ras pā▫i▫ā.
Joining the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy, the Lord's sublime essence is obtained.

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਫਲ ਓਹ ਕਾਇਆ ॥੫॥
कहु नानक सफल ओह काइआ ॥५॥
Kaho Nānak safal oh kā▫i▫ā. ||5||
Says Nanak, how fruitful is that body. ||5||

ਸਭਿ ਰੂਪ ਸਭਿ ਸੁਖ ਬਨੇ ਸੁਹਾਗਨਿ ॥
सभि रूप सभि सुख बने सुहागनि ॥
Sabẖ rūp sabẖ sukẖ bane suhāgan.
All graces and all comforts shall come to you, as the happy soul-bride;

ਅਤਿ ਸੁੰਦਰਿ ਬਿਚਖਨਿ ਤੂੰ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੧੨॥
अति सुंदरि बिचखनि तूं ॥१॥ रहाउ दूजा ॥१२॥
Aṯ sunḏar bicẖkẖan ṯūʼn. ||1|| rahā▫o ḏūjā. ||12||
you shall be supremely beautiful and wise. ||1||Second. Pause||12||
 

Tejwant Singh

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Nothing wrong in this.
Atleast those people recited the Japji Sahib 84 times. This surely is good for them.

Charanjit ji,

Guru Fateh.

What good does it bring if one recites Jap ji 84 times and everytime one does that, one has to take a dip and get drenched? I know many people who leave Goindwal Sahib with high fever due to 84 dips consecutively, each after having parroted Jap ji. One of my aunts almost died from pneumonia and was admitted to a hospital.

I do appreciate people's devotion but the same energy and devotion can be utilised in a better manner if we use the teachings of SGGS as our only catalyst.

Sikhi has no Cross to carry nor does it advocate any penance for us. Our only duty is to read and understand Gurbani so we can learn how to practice it in our everyday lives.

SGGS is a tool box. We can do 2 things with it as they say in the US. Either we can sit on it and munch our lunch as people do ( by sitting on it I mean, just parroting Gurbani without understanding it) or we can open this tool box and use ITS tools for the betterment of our lives and others who are near and dear to us. By doing this we will also be able to help anyone and everyone because Gurbani teaches us " Nanh koi beri, Nahin beghanah". In other words, I see no stranger, I feel no enmity.

This is the ultimate goal of any and every Sikh.

Tejwant Singh
 
Jul 10, 2006
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At other places Guru ji declares..EVEN the Devtas, angels, demi-gods...SEEK and NEED the Human Body in order to escape this cycle of birth and death and merge with the Creator. This means the devtas etc are also lower in status to a GURMUKH.
ES dehi ko simreh DEV..."dehi" is human body !!

You write "escape this cycle of birth and death " and yet reject reincarnation.

Awan jawan ie coming and going is the Sikhee form of reincarnation or transmigration and is not limited to just the human form. Though Awan jawan is not fatalistic in Sikhee, it is still a form of reincarnation/transmigration.

Giani ji, what is your reply to these questions If there is only one human life then where .. Kaurkhalsaraj's Blog
 

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Admin note: The conversation is moving away from its original focus on rituals, initially in relation to 84 joons, and now is focusing on an entirely different aspect of Sikhi, namely, reincarnation.

A new thread has been created to accommodate the discussion of sikdaree, coming and going, reincarnation: Human as Sikdaree: Support for the Concept of Reincarnation? The thread is located at this link http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/sikh-...s-sikdaree-support-concept-reincarnation.html

All future discussions of reincarnation should be posted to the new thread. This thread will be closed if the discussion wanders. Use this thread to post comments about rituals in Sikhism.

Thank you Narayanjot Kaur
 

Dalvinder Singh Grewal

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It has been seen that rituals are being continuously added by Babas/Deras and some unqualified preachers. The long list of rituals introduced is leading Sikhism to Brahmanical tradition. I request Akal Takhat to issue an edict stopping these rituals and follow only the system set in Reht Maryada and no more. Even if some matter is needed to be adopted or amended in Reht Maryada it must only be done with the permission of entire Sikh Sangat. Any matter needs changing must first be vetted for impromptu entry and then should be well circulated globally on net and comments asked. If need be even consensus can be obtained on net and through sangats in various gurdwaras and congregations. Once there is a general agreement for the change such a change be adopted through the panj piara concept and made public with wide circulation. This is only a suggestion.; other suggestions could be there. Procedure has to be first set and this could also be discussed widely.
 
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