Amrit Vela / Early Rising - What Does Gurbani Say? | Sikh Philosophy Network
  • Welcome to all New Sikh Philosophy Network Forums!
    Explore Sikh Sikhi Sikhism...
    Sign up Log in

Amrit Vela / Early Rising - What Does Gurbani Say?

Ishna

Enthusiast
Writer
SPNer
May 9, 2006
3,249
5,182
Hello

Related to Chaz Ji's recent thread on Amrit Vela, and respecting his wish not to derail the thread with speculation about what actually constitutes 'Amrit Vela', I thought I would start a new thread with my thoughts.

To be honest, I don't find any particular focus on pre-dawn/dawn activities in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. When used, the term 'amrit vela' is not defined. "Amrit" means something like 'sweet/ambrosial' and "vela" means "time". In Guru Ji's lifetime, the phrase 'amrit vela' was commonly used to describe pre-dawn, so today we assume that is what Guru Ji meant.

We have sakhis describing the lifestyle of Guru Sahiban, which suggest they themselves did rise early in the morning to take a bath and recite Gurbani.

However, if it was such an important aspect of the philosophy and lifestyle of a Sikh, wouldn't it be emphasised more, and clearly, in the Gurbani?

This brings me to the word "ਉਪਜੰਪਿ"/"Upjmp". Please see this shabad on Panna 228 for full context of the shabad relating to this word.

ਰਾਮਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਚਿਤੁ ਰਾਪੈ ਜਾ ਕਾ
Rām nām cẖiṯ rāpai jā kā.
One whose consciousness is permeated with the Lord's Name -

ਉਪਜੰਪਿ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਕੀਜੈ ਤਾ ਕਾ ॥੧॥
Upjamp ḏarsan kījai ṯā kā. ||1||
receive the blessing of his darshan in the early light of dawn. ||1||​

In the above, ਉਪਜੰਪਿ has been translated as 'early light of dawn'. However, another meaning for it is 'silently recite'. In the broader landscape of Gurbani, we continually see this theme of inward recitation and inner jap. Furthermore, the rest of this shabad talks about the Shabad in one's heart.

What are your thoughts regarding the translation of the word?

Thanks
 

Original

Writer
SPNer
Jan 10, 2011
1,053
552
62
London UK
Hello

Related to Chaz Ji's recent thread on Amrit Vela, and respecting his wish not to derail the thread with speculation about what actually constitutes 'Amrit Vela', I thought I would start a new thread with my thoughts.

To be honest, I don't find any particular focus on pre-dawn/dawn activities in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. When used, the term 'amrit vela' is not defined. "Amrit" means something like 'sweet/ambrosial' and "vela" means "time". In Guru Ji's lifetime, the phrase 'amrit vela' was commonly used to describe pre-dawn, so today we assume that is what Guru Ji meant.

We have sakhis describing the lifestyle of Guru Sahiban, which suggest they themselves did rise early in the morning to take a bath and recite Gurbani.

However, if it was such an important aspect of the philosophy and lifestyle of a Sikh, wouldn't it be emphasised more, and clearly, in the Gurbani?

This brings me to the word "ਉਪਜੰਪਿ"/"Upjmp". Please see this shabad on Panna 228 for full context of the shabad relating to this word.

ਰਾਮਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਚਿਤੁ ਰਾਪੈ ਜਾ ਕਾ
Rām nām cẖiṯ rāpai jā kā.
One whose consciousness is permeated with the Lord's Name -

ਉਪਜੰਪਿ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਕੀਜੈ ਤਾ ਕਾ ॥੧॥
Upjamp ḏarsan kījai ṯā kā. ||1||
receive the blessing of his darshan in the early light of dawn. ||1||​

In the above, ਉਪਜੰਪਿ has been translated as 'early light of dawn'. However, another meaning for it is 'silently recite'. In the broader landscape of Gurbani, we continually see this theme of inward recitation and inner jap. Furthermore, the rest of this shabad talks about the Shabad in one's heart.

What are your thoughts regarding the translation of the word?

Thanks
Ishna Ji - from the top of my head, I'd place it close to "rise", because another shabd comes to mind [from memory], that is, "sangat ki j sad ki oop'jay atamic gyan" and oop'jay in this context means "elevate". The shabd you're referring to is likely to be one word and not two syllables denoting "silently recite". In my opinion it would be rise early. To confirm authentic meaning and application I'll raid some of my literature and revert back to you.

Bye
 

chazSingh

Writer
SPNer
Feb 20, 2012
1,644
1,641
What would your translation be for the following?

kurabaanee thinhaa(n) gurasikhaa(n) pishhal raathee out(h) beha(n)dhae||
I am sacrifice unto those Gursikhs who get up in the last quarter of night.
 

Tejwant Singh

Mentor
Writer
SPNer
Jun 30, 2004
5,028
7,180
Henderson, NV.
What would your translation be for the following?

kurabaanee thinhaa(n) gurasikhaa(n) pishhal raathee out(h) beha(n)dhae||
I am sacrifice unto those Gursikhs who get up in the last quarter of night.
Chaz ji,

Guru Fateh.

Please post the page number and the whole shabad so others can pitch in with their view. One liners like this are demeaning to our learning process through Gurbani. When you post the Shabad, please give your own understanding as well with it and then asking others about the shabad becomes valid, hence interactive.

This forum is based on interaction so we can learn from each other. Both shabads you posted on the other thread are also incomplete.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh
 
Last edited:

Original

Writer
SPNer
Jan 10, 2011
1,053
552
62
London UK
Hello

Related to Chaz Ji's recent thread on Amrit Vela, and respecting his wish not to derail the thread with speculation about what actually constitutes 'Amrit Vela', I thought I would start a new thread with my thoughts.

To be honest, I don't find any particular focus on pre-dawn/dawn activities in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. When used, the term 'amrit vela' is not defined. "Amrit" means something like 'sweet/ambrosial' and "vela" means "time". In Guru Ji's lifetime, the phrase 'amrit vela' was commonly used to describe pre-dawn, so today we assume that is what Guru Ji meant.

We have sakhis describing the lifestyle of Guru Sahiban, which suggest they themselves did rise early in the morning to take a bath and recite Gurbani.

However, if it was such an important aspect of the philosophy and lifestyle of a Sikh, wouldn't it be emphasised more, and clearly, in the Gurbani?

This brings me to the word "ਉਪਜੰਪਿ"/"Upjmp". Please see this shabad on Panna 228 for full context of the shabad relating to this word.

ਰਾਮਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਚਿਤੁ ਰਾਪੈ ਜਾ ਕਾ
Rām nām cẖiṯ rāpai jā kā.
One whose consciousness is permeated with the Lord's Name -

ਉਪਜੰਪਿ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਕੀਜੈ ਤਾ ਕਾ ॥੧॥

Upjamp ḏarsan kījai ṯā kā. ||1||
receive the blessing of his darshan in the early light of dawn. ||1||​

In the above, ਉਪਜੰਪਿ has been translated as 'early light of dawn'. However, another meaning for it is 'silently recite'. In the broader landscape of Gurbani, we continually see this theme of inward recitation and inner jap. Furthermore, the rest of this shabad talks about the Shabad in one's heart.

What are your thoughts regarding the translation of the word?

Thanks
Ishna Ji

Definitely a diamond of a word [ਉਪਜੰਪਿ]. What an interesting enterprise reading around for correct interpretation?

Findings - professor Sahib Singh says, savera uth'diyan [early rise]
- Kahn Singh Nabha's, Mahan Khosh [Oxford equivalent dictionary
of Gursikhi] says, sur vich kita jap [silent utterance].
Taken together, an ambiguity within the precise meaning of the word ਉਪਜੰਪਿ is found.

According to the literal rule, it is the task of the reader to give the word to be construed its literal meaning regardless of whether the result is sensible or not. In which case, it'll be silent utterance, on the proviso, Mahan Khosh is universally recognised as an authoritative dictionary of Sikhism. There are other interpretative rules which kicks-in should there be absurdity, inconsistency, etc. Conversely, if both authors are taken to be authoritative, then there will ambiguity.

Language is like a coin with two sides - lexicon and grammar, more commonly referred to as, syntactic ambiguity. They are the essential features, which can be the sources of ambiguity. Judicial view on ambiguity is reserved dependent upon a range of factors. Experts are called in, but in all eventuality the matter is left for wider n narrow construction with emphasis on subjectivity over objectivity.

Weighing the two, a value judgment [subjective] would suffice in giving the word its proper signification. In which case, "silent utterance" for you and "early rise" for Chaz.

In reaching great many solutions, a value judgment or aesthetic choice becomes inevitable and necessary no matter how hard the decision maker [Judge] exercise caution by means of careful analysis. And, indeed in some instances the logical solution may be invalidated because essential elements of emotion and irrationality ought to have been the proper considerations.

Ishna, a lot more can be said re interpretation, maybe another time, but the "operative" word which caught my eye was your take on "Amrit".

Goodnight n Godbless
 

Ishna

Enthusiast
Writer
SPNer
May 9, 2006
3,249
5,182
What would your translation be for the following?

kurabaanee thinhaa(n) gurasikhaa(n) pishhal raathee out(h) beha(n)dhae||
I am sacrifice unto those Gursikhs who get up in the last quarter of night.
Hi Chaz ji

It helps me greatly to be able to see the Gurmukhi. I am not fluent in the language and need the original letters to help me. Without a Panna number I can't find it. Can you (or someone else who knows) point me to the right ang, please?

Thanks
Treks
 

Ishna

Enthusiast
Writer
SPNer
May 9, 2006
3,249
5,182
What would your translation be for the following?

kurabaanee thinhaa(n) gurasikhaa(n) pishhal raathee out(h) beha(n)dhae||
I am sacrifice unto those Gursikhs who get up in the last quarter of night.
It's okay, I found it. It is one of Bhai Gurdas Ji's Vaaran. Full paurhi here: http://searchgurbani.com/bhai_gurdas_vaaran/vaar/12/pauri/2

Clearly the context here is about rising in the last quarter of the night. It is followed by an instruction to bathe in the holy tank. If he means the water surrounding Harmandir Sahib, we might all need to relocate to Amritsar :p (j/k)

An interesting contrast to the above is what Gurbani itself says about the 'last quarter of the night', Pannas 74-78.
 

Original

Writer
SPNer
Jan 10, 2011
1,053
552
62
London UK
What would your translation be for the following?

kurabaanee thinhaa(n) gurasikhaa(n) pishhal raathee out(h) beha(n)dhae||
I am sacrifice unto those Gursikhs who get up in the last quarter of night.
Chaz Ji - good morning !

I'm feeling cnd [cool and deadly, a street term we used when I was young n handsome - kabbadi days]. Using it here is to reflect my level of being n awareness par with yours, after Amrit Vela meditation. The poetic "rush" within is dying to express itself in a form without ? Let Bhulla Shah be the architect therefore,.....lakhaan voo'ha ta lakhaan vaar'ian nay [numerous doors n windows in the city of Lahore]......jerh'ian khoo'ian chu'an bhar gaya pani ashik ooee'oh meth'ian ta baaki khariyan nay [those well's from whence the lovers have drunk are the sweet ones, the rest sour].

Moving on to the real deal, your text above, a full exposure of the shabd is necessary for completeness and accuracy sake. But on the given prose, I'd go along with the transliteration cited. To add, if I may, particularly Baba Nanak Ji, was always complimentary and appreciatative in expressing the greatness of those who wined n dined with God. Loads of Baba Ji's writings reflect the use of the word "qurban" [sacrifice]. Yes, in a round about way - I'll say, the writer is giving credence to "early risers".

Over 2 U -
 

Ishna

Enthusiast
Writer
SPNer
May 9, 2006
3,249
5,182
Ishna Ji

Definitely a diamond of a word [ਉਪਜੰਪਿ]. What an interesting enterprise reading around for correct interpretation?
<snip>
Thanks for your insight, Original Ji.

Upon closer inspection of this tuk, I wonder if the secret is in the Gurbani grammar.

[ਉਪਜੰਪਿ] is "early dawn" as a noun, and "silently recite" as a verb.

I do not know enough about Gurbani grammar to decipher it myself. Can anyone shed any insight? Or is it truly as you've said, Original Ji, a syntactic ambiguity?

~~~~~

However, if we look at the entire paurhi, and paurhi two, an interesting pattern emerges, as highlighted in green:

ਗਉੜੀ ਮਹਲਾ
Ga▫oṛī mėhlā 1.
Gauree, First Mehl:

ਰਾਮਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਚਿਤੁ ਰਾਪੈ ਜਾ ਕਾ
Rām nām cẖiṯ rāpai jā kā.
One whose consciousness is permeated with the Lord's Name -

ਉਪਜੰਪਿ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਕੀਜੈ ਤਾ ਕਾ ॥੧॥
Upjamp ḏarsan kījai ṯā kā. ||1||
receive the blessing of his darshan in the early light of dawn. ||1||

ਰਾਮ ਜਪਹੁ ਅਭਾਗੁ ਤੁਮਾਰਾ
Rām na japahu abẖāg ṯumārā.
If you do not meditate on the Lord, it is your own misfortune.

ਜੁਗਿ ਜੁਗਿ ਦਾਤਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਰਾਮੁ ਹਮਾਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
Jug jug ḏāṯā parabẖ rām hamārā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
In each and every age, the Great Giver is my Lord God. ||1||Pause||

ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਰਾਮੁ ਜਪੈ ਜਨੁ ਪੂਰਾ
Gurmaṯ rām japai jan pūrā.
Following the Guru's Teachings, the perfect humble beings meditate on the Lord.

ਤਿਤੁ ਘਟ ਅਨਹਤ ਬਾਜੇ ਤੂਰਾ ॥੨॥
Ŧiṯ gẖat anhaṯ bāje ṯūrā. ||2||
Within their hearts, the unstruck melody vibrates. ||2||​

It really does seem to me that the overall theme is inward recitation. Specifying a time of day appears inconsistent, in my humble opinion.
 

chazSingh

Writer
SPNer
Feb 20, 2012
1,644
1,641
Chaz ji,

Guru Fateh.

Please post the page number and the whole shabad so others can pitch in with their view. One liners like this are demeaning to our learning process through Gurbani. When you post the Shabad, please give your own understanding as well with it and then asking others about the shabad becomes valid, hence interactive.

This forum is based on interaction so we can learn from each other. Both shabads you posted on the other thread are also incomplete.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

The shabads on the other thread are complete as per sikhi to the max...
 

chazSingh

Writer
SPNer
Feb 20, 2012
1,644
1,641
It's okay, I found it. It is one of Bhai Gurdas Ji's Vaaran. Full paurhi here: http://searchgurbani.com/bhai_gurdas_vaaran/vaar/12/pauri/2

Clearly the context here is about rising in the last quarter of the night. It is followed by an instruction to bathe in the holy tank. If he means the water surrounding Harmandir Sahib, we might all need to relocate to Amritsar :p (j/k)

An interesting contrast to the above is what Gurbani itself says about the 'last quarter of the night', Pannas 74-78.

The holy tank is within you...
Gurbani states very clearly over and over...God is within you...everything you need to do is within you...all cleansing takes place within you :)

i will find you countless shabads for this...

i cannot emphasize this enough.... on my own personal journey i have done simran, paat, contemplation etc etc during the day...and during the last quarter of the night. It is when i started to get up during this last quarter that things began to become very interesting...very interesting indeed. the universe opened up and i became an explorer, an explorer of life and beyond...all whilst sat on my living room sofa :)

I love watching films like 'interstallar' they are so thought provoking...they challenge our very nature and existance...and inspire us to seek the truth....

but none of us will get a chance to sit in a space craft and explore...and the crazy and amazing thing is...we don;t even need to :)

basically for me...it is very clear...without a seconds doubt...that this part of the day for us sikhs and any truth seeker... it is very important...
until the day comes when my Ego is dissolved and I am intoxicated throughout the whole day in which case amrit vela is then every moment...
 
Last edited:

chazSingh

Writer
SPNer
Feb 20, 2012
1,644
1,641
Ishna Ji,

Can gurbani be any clearer? for the lost souls entangled in Maya, why would Guru Ji distinguish parts of the day for us....if it wasn't important...why even mention it?

I really don;t know how clear and concise a shabad can be...how clear Guru Ji can be on this subject...it is wise to question and study...it is wiser to try and put into practice and see for yourself...



ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ
सलोक मः २ ॥
Salok mėhlā 2.
Shalok, Second Mehl:

ਅਠੀ ਪਹਰੀ ਅਠ ਖੰਡ ਨਾਵਾ ਖੰਡੁ ਸਰੀਰੁ
अठी पहरी अठ खंड नावा खंडु सरीरु ॥
Aṯẖī pahrī aṯẖ kẖand nāvā kẖand sarīr.
Twenty-four hours a day, destroy the eight things, and in the ninth place, conquer the body.

ਤਿਸੁ ਵਿਚਿ ਨਉ ਨਿਧਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਏਕੁ ਭਾਲਹਿ ਗੁਣੀ ਗਹੀਰੁ
तिसु विचि नउ निधि नामु एकु भालहि गुणी गहीरु ॥
Ŧis vicẖ na▫o niḏẖ nām ek bẖālėh guṇī gahīr.
Within the body are the nine treasures of the Name of the Lord-seek the depths of these virtues.

ਕਰਮਵੰਤੀ ਸਾਲਾਹਿਆ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਰਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਪੀਰੁ
करमवंती सालाहिआ नानक करि गुरु पीरु ॥
Karamvanṯī salāhi▫ā Nānak kar gur pīr.
Those blessed with the karma of good actions praise the Lord. O Nanak, they make the Guru their spiritual teacher.

ਚਉਥੈ ਪਹਰਿ ਸਬਾਹ ਕੈ ਸੁਰਤਿਆ ਉਪਜੈ ਚਾਉ
चउथै पहरि सबाह कै सुरतिआ उपजै चाउ ॥
Cẖa▫uthai pahar sabāh kai surṯi▫ā upjai cẖā▫o.
In the fourth watch of the early morning hours, a longing arises in their higher consciousness.

ਤਿਨਾ ਦਰੀਆਵਾ ਸਿਉ ਦੋਸਤੀ ਮਨਿ ਮੁਖਿ ਸਚਾ ਨਾਉ
तिना दरीआवा सिउ दोसती मनि मुखि सचा नाउ ॥
Ŧinā ḏarī▫āvā si▫o ḏosṯī man mukẖ sacẖā nā▫o.
They are attuned to the river of life; the True Name is in their minds and on their lips.

ਓਥੈ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਵੰਡੀਐ ਕਰਮੀ ਹੋਇ ਪਸਾਉ
ओथै अम्रितु वंडीऐ करमी होइ पसाउ ॥
Othai amriṯ vandī▫ai karmī ho▫e pasā▫o.
The Ambrosial Nectar is distributed, and those with good karma receive this gift.

ਕੰਚਨ ਕਾਇਆ ਕਸੀਐ ਵੰਨੀ ਚੜੈ ਚੜਾਉ
कंचन काइआ कसीऐ वंनी चड़ै चड़ाउ ॥
Kancẖan kā▫i▫ā kasī▫ai vannī cẖaṛai cẖaṛā▫o.
Their bodies become golden, and take on the color of spirituality.

ਜੇ ਹੋਵੈ ਨਦਰਿ ਸਰਾਫ ਕੀ ਬਹੁੜਿ ਪਾਈ ਤਾਉ
जे होवै नदरि सराफ की बहुड़ि न पाई ताउ ॥
Je hovai naḏar sarāf kī bahuṛ na pā▫ī ṯā▫o.
If the Jeweler casts His Glance of Grace, they are not placed in the fire again.

ਸਤੀ ਪਹਰੀ ਸਤੁ ਭਲਾ ਬਹੀਐ ਪੜਿਆ ਪਾਸਿ
सती पहरी सतु भला बहीऐ पड़िआ पासि ॥
Saṯī pahrī saṯ bẖalā bahī▫ai paṛi▫ā pās.
Throughout the other seven watches of the day, it is good to speak the Truth, and sit with the spiritually wise.

ਓਥੈ ਪਾਪੁ ਪੁੰਨੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੀਐ ਕੂੜੈ ਘਟੈ ਰਾਸਿ
ओथै पापु पुंनु बीचारीऐ कूड़ै घटै रासि ॥
Othai pāp punn bīcẖārī▫ai kūrhai gẖatai rās.
There, vice and virtue are distinguished, and the capital of falsehood is decreased.

ਓਥੈ ਖੋਟੇ ਸਟੀਅਹਿ ਖਰੇ ਕੀਚਹਿ ਸਾਬਾਸਿ
ओथै खोटे सटीअहि खरे कीचहि साबासि ॥
Othai kẖote satī▫ah kẖare kīcẖėh sābās.
There, the counterfeit are cast aside, and the genuine are cheered.

ਬੋਲਣੁ ਫਾਦਲੁ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਦੁਖੁ ਸੁਖੁ ਖਸਮੈ ਪਾਸਿ ॥੧॥
बोलणु फादलु नानका दुखु सुखु खसमै पासि ॥१॥
Bolaṇ fāḏal nānkā ḏukẖ sukẖ kẖasmai pās. ||1||
Speech is vain and useless. O Nanak, pain and pleasure are in the power of our Lord and Master. ||1||
 

Original

Writer
SPNer
Jan 10, 2011
1,053
552
62
London UK
Thanks for your insight, Original Ji.

Upon closer inspection of this tuk, I wonder if the secret is in the Gurbani grammar.

[ਉਪਜੰਪਿ] is "early dawn" as a noun, and "silently recite" as a verb.

I do not know enough about Gurbani grammar to decipher it myself. Can anyone shed any insight? Or is it truly as you've said, Original Ji, a syntactic ambiguity?

~~~~~

However, if we look at the entire paurhi, and paurhi two, an interesting pattern emerges, as highlighted in green:

ਗਉੜੀ ਮਹਲਾ
Ga▫oṛī mėhlā 1.
Gauree, First Mehl:

ਰਾਮਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਚਿਤੁ ਰਾਪੈ ਜਾ ਕਾ
Rām nām cẖiṯ rāpai jā kā.
One whose consciousness is permeated with the Lord's Name -

ਉਪਜੰਪਿ ਦਰਸਨੁ ਕੀਜੈ ਤਾ ਕਾ ॥੧॥
Upjamp ḏarsan kījai ṯā kā. ||1||
receive the blessing of his darshan in the early light of dawn. ||1||

ਰਾਮ ਜਪਹੁ ਅਭਾਗੁ ਤੁਮਾਰਾ
Rām na japahu abẖāg ṯumārā.
If you do not meditate on the Lord, it is your own misfortune.

ਜੁਗਿ ਜੁਗਿ ਦਾਤਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਰਾਮੁ ਹਮਾਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
Jug jug ḏāṯā parabẖ rām hamārā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
In each and every age, the Great Giver is my Lord God. ||1||Pause||

ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਰਾਮੁ ਜਪੈ ਜਨੁ ਪੂਰਾ
Gurmaṯ rām japai jan pūrā.
Following the Guru's Teachings, the perfect humble beings meditate on the Lord.

ਤਿਤੁ ਘਟ ਅਨਹਤ ਬਾਜੇ ਤੂਰਾ ॥੨॥
Ŧiṯ gẖat anhaṯ bāje ṯūrā. ||2||
Within their hearts, the unstruck melody vibrates. ||2||​

It really does seem to me that the overall theme is inward recitation. Specifying a time of day appears inconsistent, in my humble opinion.
...And, I second your opinion. Why? Because the reader [you] is in a predicament and must accordingly take the whole shabd together, which when taken and acted upon is by n large found to be inconsistent. As a result, you're given the latitude with which the grammatical and ordinary sense of the words may be modified.

In my earlier communication I went along to introduce a "value judgment necessity" for a very particular purpose. Take for example, you n Chaz, one giving weight to the noun and the other to the verb. The adjudicator having considered the wider and the narrow interpretation will be invited to look at all the circumstantial evidence placed before him/her and then deliver a subjective and not an objective ruling. What's that ? Consider the following, "meet you at the bank for 3pm" says Harry to Tejwant. Tejwant shows up at the local commercial bank on the high street at 3, whilst Harry with his fishing gear awaits Telwant's arrival on the banks of River Thames. These kind of ambiguities gives birth to what we call "circumstantial eveidence" and the proper construction is left to the decision maker, you n Chaz.

Using a value judgement to tip the balance is necessary. Let's see why ?, Take for example, you n Chaz sharing a 2 bedroom flat with one kitchen, all the utilities, pots, pans etc. but "1" cup between the two. Say one evening after work you both walk in together and you see the empty cup in the kitchen. An immediate grasp by the mind of the empty cup signals a hot beverage [you], equally for Chaz, seeing the cup empty, mind mellows with a soft juice. Therefore, the "value" of the cup at that "particular" moment in time lay in its emptiness. Using that as a yard stick, the adjudicator will take into account the significance and not the literal of ਉਪਜੰਪਿ in giving it effect, which in this case would be "silent utterance", the value being "reciting". Although, both noun n verb speak of the one, but are at variance with one another is seen to be subjective. And, since this is not a matter of law nor fact, but one of interpretation it's down to you n Chaz for both you will not be "wrong".

My personal take on the whole matter is that Professor Sahib Singh gave it a value rather than the literal meaning for he relied on the "religious" more than the literal significance within the "wider" context of the meaning of the word when up for construction.

Forgive me for errors or exclusions or confusions - rushed it a bit, sorry !
 

Ishna

Enthusiast
Writer
SPNer
May 9, 2006
3,249
5,182
@chazSingh , Original Ji makes a very good point in post #13 above. I guess this entire issue for us is a matter of our own subjective judgement.

You say:
Chaz Ji said:
I really don;t know how clear and concise a shabad can be...how clear Guru Ji can be on this subject...it is wise to question and study...it is wiser to try and put into practice and see for yourself...
The same thought went through my mind when you quoted a tuk from ang 1383 in your thread about amrit vela. It is clear that the shabad is talking about the quarters of a person's whole life, and imploring on to "wake up" to Guru Ji before it's too late and they die.

Coming back to the shabad you posted above (which is from ang 146, incidentally ;) ), I read the whole page, and the page before it, and a number of the shabads make a point of keeping Creator in mind at all times, 24 hours a day, constantly. I'm not convinced that the bani would just suddenly switch from metaphor to literal instruction just like that.

While I was reading, I saw this shabad (starts at the bottom of ang 145). How is the first line translated to include 'early hours'? Also, it seems to be suggesting that the early morning rise is useless - constant remembrance is the key.

ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ
Salok mėhlā 1.
Shalok, First Mehl:

ਸਬਾਹੀ ਸਾਲਾਹ ਜਿਨੀ ਧਿਆਇਆ ਇਕ ਮਨਿ
Sabāhī sālāh jinī ḏẖi▫ā▫i▫ā ik man.
Those who praise the Lord in the early hours of the morning and meditate on Him single-mindedly,

ਸੇਈ ਪੂਰੇ ਸਾਹ ਵਖਤੈ ਉਪਰਿ ਲੜਿ ਮੁਏ
Se▫ī pūre sāh vakẖ▫ṯai upar laṛ mu▫e.
are the perfect kings; at the right time, they die fighting.

ਦੂਜੈ ਬਹੁਤੇ ਰਾਹ ਮਨ ਕੀਆ ਮਤੀ ਖਿੰਡੀਆ
Ḏūjai bahuṯe rāh man kī▫ā maṯī kẖindī▫ā.
In the second watch, the focus of the mind is scattered in all sorts of ways.

ਬਹੁਤੁ ਪਏ ਅਸਗਾਹ ਗੋਤੇ ਖਾਹਿ ਨਿਕਲਹਿ
Bahuṯ pa▫e asgāh goṯe kẖāhi na niklahi.
So many fall into the bottomless pit; they are dragged under, and they cannot get out again.

ਤੀਜੈ ਮੁਹੀ ਗਿਰਾਹ ਭੁਖ ਤਿਖਾ ਦੁਇ ਭਉਕੀਆ
Ŧījai muhī girāh bẖukẖ ṯikẖā ḏu▫e bẖa▫ukī▫ā.
In the third watch, both hunger and thirst bark for attention, and food is put into the mouth.

ਖਾਧਾ ਹੋਇ ਸੁਆਹ ਭੀ ਖਾਣੇ ਸਿਉ ਦੋਸਤੀ
Kẖāḏẖā ho▫e su▫āh bẖī kẖāṇe si▫o ḏosṯī.
That which is eaten becomes dust, but they are still attached to eating.

ਚਉਥੈ ਆਈ ਊਂਘ ਅਖੀ ਮੀਟਿ ਪਵਾਰਿ ਗਇਆ
Cẖa▫uthai ā▫ī ūʼngẖ akẖī mīt pavār ga▫i▫ā.
In the fourth watch, they become drowsy. They close their eyes and begin to dream.

ਭੀ ਉਠਿ ਰਚਿਓਨੁ ਵਾਦੁ ਸੈ ਵਰ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਆ ਕੀ ਪਿੜ ਬਧੀ
Bẖī uṯẖ racẖi▫on vāḏ sai varėh▫ā kī piṛ baḏẖī.
Rising up again, they engage in conflicts; they set the stage as if they will live for 100 years.

ਸਭੇ ਵੇਲਾ ਵਖਤ ਸਭਿ ਜੇ ਅਠੀ ਭਉ ਹੋਇ
Sabẖe velā vakẖaṯ sabẖ je aṯẖī bẖa▫o ho▫e.
If at all times, at each and every moment, they live in the fear of God -

ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਸਚਾ ਨਾਵਣੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੧॥
Nānak sāhib man vasai sacẖā nāvaṇ ho▫e. ||1||
O Nanak, the Lord dwells within their minds, and their cleansing bath is true. ||1||​

Many thanks.

PS. I changed the thread heading so it is broader.
 

chazSingh

Writer
SPNer
Feb 20, 2012
1,644
1,641
@chazSingh , Original Ji makes a very good point in post #13 above. I guess this entire issue for us is a matter of our own subjective judgement.

You say:


The same thought went through my mind when you quoted a tuk from ang 1383 in your thread about amrit vela. It is clear that the shabad is talking about the quarters of a person's whole life, and imploring on to "wake up" to Guru Ji before it's too late and they die.

Coming back to the shabad you posted above (which is from ang 146, incidentally ;) ), I read the whole page, and the page before it, and a number of the shabads make a point of keeping Creator in mind at all times, 24 hours a day, constantly. I'm not convinced that the bani would just suddenly switch from metaphor to literal instruction just like that.

While I was reading, I saw this shabad (starts at the bottom of ang 145). How is the first line translated to include 'early hours'? Also, it seems to be suggesting that the early morning rise is useless - constant remembrance is the key.

ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ
Salok mėhlā 1.
Shalok, First Mehl:

ਸਬਾਹੀ ਸਾਲਾਹ ਜਿਨੀ ਧਿਆਇਆ ਇਕ ਮਨਿ
Sabāhī sālāh jinī ḏẖi▫ā▫i▫ā ik man.
Those who praise the Lord in the early hours of the morning and meditate on Him single-mindedly,

ਸੇਈ ਪੂਰੇ ਸਾਹ ਵਖਤੈ ਉਪਰਿ ਲੜਿ ਮੁਏ
Se▫ī pūre sāh vakẖ▫ṯai upar laṛ mu▫e.
are the perfect kings; at the right time, they die fighting.

ਦੂਜੈ ਬਹੁਤੇ ਰਾਹ ਮਨ ਕੀਆ ਮਤੀ ਖਿੰਡੀਆ
Ḏūjai bahuṯe rāh man kī▫ā maṯī kẖindī▫ā.
In the second watch, the focus of the mind is scattered in all sorts of ways.

ਬਹੁਤੁ ਪਏ ਅਸਗਾਹ ਗੋਤੇ ਖਾਹਿ ਨਿਕਲਹਿ
Bahuṯ pa▫e asgāh goṯe kẖāhi na niklahi.
So many fall into the bottomless pit; they are dragged under, and they cannot get out again.

ਤੀਜੈ ਮੁਹੀ ਗਿਰਾਹ ਭੁਖ ਤਿਖਾ ਦੁਇ ਭਉਕੀਆ
Ŧījai muhī girāh bẖukẖ ṯikẖā ḏu▫e bẖa▫ukī▫ā.
In the third watch, both hunger and thirst bark for attention, and food is put into the mouth.

ਖਾਧਾ ਹੋਇ ਸੁਆਹ ਭੀ ਖਾਣੇ ਸਿਉ ਦੋਸਤੀ
Kẖāḏẖā ho▫e su▫āh bẖī kẖāṇe si▫o ḏosṯī.
That which is eaten becomes dust, but they are still attached to eating.

ਚਉਥੈ ਆਈ ਊਂਘ ਅਖੀ ਮੀਟਿ ਪਵਾਰਿ ਗਇਆ
Cẖa▫uthai ā▫ī ūʼngẖ akẖī mīt pavār ga▫i▫ā.
In the fourth watch, they become drowsy. They close their eyes and begin to dream.

ਭੀ ਉਠਿ ਰਚਿਓਨੁ ਵਾਦੁ ਸੈ ਵਰ੍ਹ੍ਹਿਆ ਕੀ ਪਿੜ ਬਧੀ
Bẖī uṯẖ racẖi▫on vāḏ sai varėh▫ā kī piṛ baḏẖī.
Rising up again, they engage in conflicts; they set the stage as if they will live for 100 years.

ਸਭੇ ਵੇਲਾ ਵਖਤ ਸਭਿ ਜੇ ਅਠੀ ਭਉ ਹੋਇ
Sabẖe velā vakẖaṯ sabẖ je aṯẖī bẖa▫o ho▫e.
If at all times, at each and every moment, they live in the fear of God -

ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਸਚਾ ਨਾਵਣੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੧॥
Nānak sāhib man vasai sacẖā nāvaṇ ho▫e. ||1||
O Nanak, the Lord dwells within their minds, and their cleansing bath is true. ||1||​

Many thanks.

PS. I changed the thread heading so it is broader.

ishna,

you wrote "

The same thought went through my mind when you quoted a tuk from ang 1383 in your thread about amrit vela. It is clear that the shabad is talking about the quarters of a person's whole life, and imploring on to "wake up" to Guru Ji before it's too late and they die.

Coming back to the shabad you posted above (which is from ang 146, incidentally ;) ), I read the whole page, and the page before it, and a number of the shabads make a point of keeping Creator in mind at all times, 24 hours a day, constantly. I'm not convinced that the bani would just suddenly switch from metaphor to literal instruction just like that. "


how does Pishal Raath n jageoo" translate to 4 quarters of ones life :) that is a strange one.

Also, why would Guru ji not want us to think of waheguru 24/7.....so in some shabads Guru ji makes a point we should have waheguru in mind all the time....but also references Amrit Vela as a certain point in time where we are able to rise to a higher consciousness which is not possible in a busy day to day life...

why ignore these lines of shabad? Guru Ji can quite easily tell us to do both.....have god in mind 24/7, but to also do amrit vela in the early hours...chauthai pahar....

even in this shabad, taking it to mean four quarters of ones life doesn't make sense...why wait for the last quarter for the longing to arise...? makes no sense at all...what of the child that lives until he's 10...?


चउथै पहरि सबाह कै सुरतिआ उपजै चाउ ॥
Cẖa▫uthai pahar sabāh kai surṯi▫ā upjai cẖā▫o.
In the fourth watch of the early morning hours, a longing arises in their higher consciousness.
 
Last edited:

chazSingh

Writer
SPNer
Feb 20, 2012
1,644
1,641
Can someone translate the following verse?

fareedhaa pishhal raath n jaagiouhi jeevadharro mueiouhi ||

in one of bhai gurdaas ji's vaars he uses the same terminology

ipCl rwqIN jwgxw nwmu dwnu iesnwnu idVwey] pishhal raathee(n) jaaganaa naam dhaan eisanaan dhirraaeae||
The Sikh awakes in the pre-dawn hour and meditating upon Naam, he becomes alert for ablution and charity.

what is this peshal raath? what is the translation...

can it really be referring to the the four quarters of a persons life like ishna Ji stated...?
 
Last edited:

Tejwant Singh

Mentor
Writer
SPNer
Jun 30, 2004
5,028
7,180
Henderson, NV.
The shabads on the other thread are complete as per sikhi to the max...
Chaz Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

If you check yourself and I know your keen interest as a Sikh,they are incomplete.

As a keen Sikh yourself with more thirst than most of us here, what is your personal opinion about the completeness of the Shabads?

Your cooperation for the sake of the newcomers here, either as guests and/or as new members, would be highly appreciated because all of us here are one family and thus it becomes our duty to show clarity to our new family members so they feel welcomed.

Thanks and regards

Tejwant Singh
 
Last edited:

japjisahib04

Mentor
SPNer
Jan 22, 2005
822
1,294
kuwait
To be honest, I don't find any particular focus on pre-dawn/dawn activities in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. When used, the term 'amrit vela' is not defined. "Amrit" means something like 'sweet/ambrosial' and "vela" means "time". In Guru Ji's lifetime, the phrase 'amrit vela' was commonly used to describe pre-dawn, so today we assume that is what Guru Ji meant.
Yes I agree with you and this is what guru sahib is trying to say in, 'ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਵੇਲਾ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਉ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ Your message and justice is true and If I live according to this message twenty four hours of my life becomes amrit velya - sweet and sehj, thus guru sahib is not giving any auspious certificate to morning time but says, ' ਓਹ ਬੇਲਾ ਕਉ ਹਉ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਉ ॥ ਜਿਤੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਮਨੁ ਜਪੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ when I am able to imbibe your wisdom in my heart, I am sacrifice to that time.
 

Tejwant Singh

Mentor
Writer
SPNer
Jun 30, 2004
5,028
7,180
Henderson, NV.
Yes I agree with you and this is what guru sahib is trying to say in, 'ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਵੇਲਾ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਉ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ Your message and justice is true and If I live according to this message twenty four hours of my life becomes amrit velya - sweet and sehj, thus guru sahib is not giving any auspious certificate to morning time but says, ' ਓਹ ਬੇਲਾ ਕਉ ਹਉ ਬਲਿ ਜਾਉ ॥ ਜਿਤੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਮਨੁ ਜਪੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਉ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ when I am able to imbibe your wisdom in my heart, I am sacrifice to that time.
Japjishah ji,

Guru fateh.

I know that we come to the same topic of Amrit Vela again and again which is the right thing to do because we evolve with time and this self evolving is the underlying meaning of Nitnem.

My question is what Vela-Time in Gurbani is not for Amrit- Nectar ( practicing Gurbani through its understanding, if Amrit Vela is only considered the early hours by many?

As Sikhi is an ever evolving way of life and we live in 24/7 world, how about those devout Sikhs who are on graveyard shifts, night shifts, traveling at odd hours by cars, by planes, Ferries etc. etc.?

How about their Amrit Vela, one should ask oneself? Why this blatant attempt of segregation towards them?

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh
 
Last edited:

chazSingh

Writer
SPNer
Feb 20, 2012
1,644
1,641
Japjishah ji,

Guru fateh.

I know that we come to the same topic of Amrit Vela again and again which is the right thing to do because we evolve with time and this self evolving is the underling meaning of Nitnem.

My question is what Vela-Time in Gurbani is not for Amrit- Nectar ( practicing Gurbani through its understanding, if Amrit Vela is only considered the early hours by many?

As Sikhi is an ever evolving way of life and we live in 24/7 world, how about those devout Sikhs who are on graveyard shifts, night shifts, traveling at odd hours by cars, by planes, Ferries etc. etc.?

How about their Amrit Vela, one should ask oneself? Why this blatant attempt of segregation towards them?

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh
Blatant attempt at segregation lol lol

Are you one of those Sikhs?. If not you have no excuse ji...utilise amrita vela while you can. Just like when I worked night shifts...I did my simran during the day...or when my shift finished...and now I work during the day i.m making the most out of this opportunity to wake up in the early hours

Come on please...this is a journey...not a short stroll. Life will challenge...these kind of comments have no worth. If your love is there you will find a way...waheguru will help you if you really want it.
 

Create an account or login to comment

You must be a member in order to leave a comment

Create account

Create an account on our community. It's easy!

Log in

Already have an account? Log in here.

Shabad Vichaar by SPN'ers

This Shabad is found on Page 793 of Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj, in Raag Suhi. The Shabad here is accompanied by Manmohan Singh's translation. As is typical of Bhagat Kabir Ji, he urges the human...

SPN on Facebook

...
Top