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Your Right to Disagree

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by pk70, Feb 12, 2009.

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  1. pk70

    pk70
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    With all due respect Vaheguru seeker jio,

    I beg to differ with your concept of "business done through sons and daughters" is taken by Kabir ji.
    Kabir ji is not addressing these slokas to those who sell their sons and daughters in any respect, it is addressed to all. It has nothing to do with the business being done through sons and daughters, what about those who do not have sons and daughters? For those does this Sloka carry any message? Actually, as per my understanding, it is a concept of attachment Kabir ji uses here. The reason he uses metaphors of sons and daughters is to align our tendency to the instinct that attaches us to them just as we are to our off spring. Who do not have off spring, they get attached to relatives or their children. There is another thing, it is house where family resides, again the attachment of the family is used to empower the metaphors If you look at the first above Slokas, hint is to get rid of them totally. Idea continues. Same way, we become attached to lust, anger, greed, attachment, avarice and envy etc. This body is called a house where all these abide in. Selling them to have Lord’s name is a process, that is why he is not even satisfied with it and stresses further to put them on fire in other means to eliminate them to unite with Him. I feel if we dig too deep, the vital point Kabir ji trying to convey may not remain a dominating idea as Kabir ji hoped for My humble views and I respect others who may disagree with me though.:)
     
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    #1 pk70, Feb 12, 2009
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  3. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Re: Gurbani Contemplation - Selok Bhagat Kabir Ji

    Pk70ji, G Singh Ji,( I am sorry, I am confused by your 2 names. So I do not know how to address you in a respectful manner. Please share with us how to address you in a Sikhi way)J

    Guru Fateh.

    It is ok to disagree as long as we are not flaunting our Manmat to do so but staying in the realm of Gurmat. That is the whole essence of Shabad Vichar. Disagreements are the stepping stones to reach the Gurmat, understanding within.

    Guru Nanak disagreed with many people and vice versa but he always prevailed because his Gurmat ideas made more sense in a pragmatic manner against the dogmatic, subjective truths the religions are based on. That is why Sikhi is not a religion because religions are personality based as Hinduism, Buddhism and the 3 Semitic religions and many others but idea based way of life. Secondly religions are established with one life span of the person who has established them unlike the idea based way of life.In this case, Sikhi took 200 some years for its ideas to take shape through our 10 Gurus and become the part of people’s daily life.

    If Guru Nanak wanted to establish another dogmatic religion then he certainly would have been killed in the competitive market of dogmas. That is also the reason SGGS does not have Gurbani only from our Gurus but also from other people of different religions who advanced the same idea as of Guru Nanak’s.

    Hence, I use disagreement as a learning tool.


    Let’s talk about Kabir ji for a moment. Kabir was a poor weaver and illiterate as most of the poor people were due to the caste/class system of India at that time. However, his imagination, vision to perceive the extraordinary amongst the ordinary was a great gift bestowed to him by Ik Ong Kaar. As you may know that written language was only meant for the few which gave people like Kabir more ability to be creative and imaginative orally. So it is said that as he could not read or write, hence his beautiful poetry was written by some of his followers who could do both. The fact is that not all the Kabir’s saloks are found in SGGS . The reason may be that some of the saloks when written by others failed to convey the same intent or the idea that jives with Gurmat values or what Kabir wanted to express.

    Kabir as we know was a great poet. He was very conservative with words. He used a few of them to express a lot. He used the common language with the local metaphors and the local value system so all could get what he wanted to convey through his poetry. People of all walks of life. Common, famous, rich and poor, uneducated and the educated were attracted towards him because of his this unique talent that expressed great insights which was easily understanble,hence appreciated by all.

    Your write:

    “Kabir ji is not addressing these slokas to those who sell their sons and daughters in any respect, it is addressed to all. It has nothing to do with the business being done through sons and daughters, what about those who do not have sons and daughters? For those does this Sloka carry any message?”

    It seems from the above the way you have put it that it is your claim rather than your opinion as if you the got the email from Kabir ji stating that.:)

    As mentioned above, Kabir ji used the language of the people and the facts were and still are that people wanting to have sons so they can bring dowries with the daughters in law and some who were blessed with the daughters sold them or gave them to the Mandirs as Dev dassis. These are cultrural, religious and historical facts.

    It seems from your above claim that Kabir used to say when his followers were gathered around him to listen to his beautiful poetry that he is only going to talk to the people who have children, which is not the case. When people like Kabir use this language they talk about the realities if life and secondly and more important thing is that a great poets like Kabir do not repeat the same thing twice in consecutive lines as you claim he did.

    To me it makes little sense to use 5 sons( children) in the first one and the repeat the same thing using sons and daughters in the next one. Kabir ji was too poetically creative for that. He knew how to use the right words to convey different things. He carried the same theme and the concept though. Repetition was neither necessary nor needed.

    Your further write:

    “Actually, as per my understanding, it is a concept of attachment Kabir ji uses here. The reason he uses metaphors of sons and daughters is to align our tendency to the instinct that attaches us to them just as we are to our off spring.”

    Thanks for sharing your understanding this time. I do appreciate that. In the above you have answered your own question that you had asked me above. Where you claimed “ It has nothing to do with the business being done through sons and daughters, what about those who do not have sons and daughters? For those does this Sloka carry any message?”. Your own answer,"Who do not have off spring, they get attached to relatives or their children.”

    It is ok to contradict and then accept the contradiction. Hence the Salok is not exclusive to those who have kids as you have explained here now.


    There is another thing, it is house where family resides, again the attachment of the family is used to empower the metaphors If you look at the first above Slokas, hint is to get rid of them totally. Idea continues. Same way, we become attached to lust, anger, greed, attachment, avarice and envy etc. This body is called a house where all these abide in. Selling them to have Lord’s name is a process, that is why he is not even satisfied with it and stresses further to put them on fire in other means to eliminate them to unite with Him. I feel if we dig too deep, the vital point Kabir ji trying to convey may not remain a dominating idea as Kabir ji hoped for My humble views and I respect others who may disagree with me though.”

    That is exactly what I said in the whole explanation of the Saloks using a bit of different language but the message and the gist is just the same as yours. So there is no disagreement here.:). And as I said before, it is ok to disagree provided we never lose the end goal which is Shabad Vichar sans prejudgment because there is only ONE judge- Ik Ong Kaar.

    Pk70 ji,

    Enough said about these Saloks. Now please share with us your Gurmat wisdom and insights regarding other Saloks that Namjap- Santokh Singh has posted.

    I know I am eagerly waiting for yours prespective. As mentioned before I enjoy your angle of the Gurmat prism.


    Thanks and Regards


    Tejwant Singh
     
  4. pk70

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    Re: Gurbani Contemplation - Selok Bhagat Kabir Ji

     
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  5. spnadmin

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    Re: Gurbani Contemplation - Selok Bhagat Kabir Ji

    We need to move the conversation forward in vichaar. Disagreements are the stepping stones to greater clarity when those disagreements are focused on the meaning of Guru's shabad. By understanding how and why there is disagreement, concepts in Gurbani are more completely defined. Please forgive me.
     
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  6. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap)
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    Re: Gurbani Contemplation - Selok Bhagat Kabir Ji

    We can learn from Kabir Ji how to disagree and yet be on the path of Truth.
    The gardener is mistaken, and the world is mistaken, but I am not mistaken. (Ang 479)

    Kabir Ji's bani comes from his experiences. We are lucky to have with us such treasure which lies latent before us in this Maya-clad 21st Century.
     
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    #5 Astroboy, Feb 14, 2009
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  7. Tejwant Singh

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    Re: Gurbani Contemplation - Selok Bhagat Kabir Ji

    Pk70 ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    Thanks for your response. Let's agree to disagree without being disagreeable :)



    I did not say “I feel sorry”. I said," I am sorry". I think the difference lies in where at and how each of us got our English skills. You also must have noticed that I never said my name was Tajinder Singh but Tejwant Singh. I presume it is an oversight which happens. I just expressed my desire to address you by your name not by some alphabets, but if you insist, I have no problems with that.

    I think you misunderstood what I said. I did not accuse anyone of using Manmat nor did I question anyone of using it. We are in a forum where I feel the need to remind myself of not using it hence I used the term 'WE" as Sikhs.

    Our Gurus never asked us to idolise them nor did they try to create any kind of superiority complex between them and the Sikhs. That is the reason there is no hierarchy in Sikhi. If there were then Siri Chand would have been our Second Guru rather than Guru Angad and Prithvi Chand are Fifth rather than Guru Arjan.

    When Guru Nanak says in japji ,' Sabh gun terei, mein nahin koi, vin gun kitei Bhagat Nan hoi". He was talking about all of us, not just about himself.

    When Guru Gobiind Sngh took Khandei de pahul from the Panj Piayras, he showed us equality of all. He lowered himself to our level to pick us up to his.

    With a lead pencil one can draw like Leonardo Da Vinci or kill someone. It is the same energy. It just depends how we utilise lt. Gurbani acts like the catalyst for us so that we can channelise our energy in the right ( Gurmat )way. It teaches us to become Leonardos or better to become Nanaks.

    Sikhi is all about learning and learning is a challenge. So I disagree with your above premise/statement. We are all capable of emulating and becoming Nanak.

    Pardon my ignorance. I have no idea what you are talking about here. Can you please elaborate it in lay man’s terms so I can get it?

    I said:
    {Hence, I use disagreement as a learning tool.}

    Your response:
    Once again I do not understand what you are trying to say here. I have no problems if people make assumptions as some logical conclusions. I do not find anything wrong with that. We all make assumptions based on our knowledge which in my opinion is o.k. If you refrain from it as you said you do, which is fine with me.

    Well, again we disagree, which is o.k. In my opinion it is important to know about Kabir’s life and the environment he was raised in.

    Well, this is the way I see the Salok for the reason I explained about repetition, it is fine with me if you see it differently. This is the beauty of Gurmat learning.

    Well, Facts are facts. In my opinion we can not run away from them nor shall we avoid them or ignore them. Present customs in Hinduism are the proofs of those facts that were also practiced then. And Kabir did mention the 5 negative forces in the previous Salok so according to me a great poet like Kabir would not repeat the same thing twice just by changing sons to sons and daughters in the next line. That is the beauty of his poetry. Again we disagree on this.Nothing wrong with that.

    Once again, we see the same poetry from a different angle when we change it into prose. Nothing wrong with that according to me.

    I said,: {Thanks for sharing your understanding this time. I do appreciate that}

    Your response:
    It is interesting to notice that you claim to know more about me than myself. It is quite presumptuous of you to say the least. I think it is important from the Gurmat value system to give the benefit of the doubt to others rather than playing them or pretending to know more about them than themselves.

    As mentioned before my name is not Tajinder Singh as you may have noticed. I am not offended by it.:)

    You seem a bit offended which is not my intention. If it is your presumption or imagination that I am zigzagging all over then I am sorry to have given that impression.

    That is your outlook not mine. As I mentioned before we see the same Salok a bit differently this may cause a disagreement which is not a bad thing in my opinion.

    Once again, you seem angry and upset and claiming what I am saying is untrue. You seem to have a trust problem. It seems you do not believe in others’ words. I am not here to change your thought process. If this is the way you think about others and do not allow yourself to give them the benefit of the doubt then I can not help you nor can I force you in doing so. I have no intention to offend you or anyone in this forum. I am here to interact and learn.

    I said:

    {Enough said about these Saloks. Now please share with us your Gurmat wisdom and insights regarding other Saloks that Namjap- Santokh Singh has posted.

    I know I am eagerly waiting for yours perspective. As mentioned before I enjoy your angle of the Gurmat prism.}

    Your response:
    If I am not mistaken, he asked all of us discuss those saloks and as I said before, I enjoy your interpretations although at times we may disagree which is a great learning process for me.

    Thanks and Regards

    Tejwant Singh Not Tajinder Singh :)
     
  8. Astroboy

    Astroboy Malaysia
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    Your Right to Disagree New

    Dear members,

    This thread has been created to park all relevant posts which can be viewed as irrelevant or which are off topic. Forum Leaders will park such posts here temporarily and review and edit their relevant portions before they are restored back to their original threads. The irrelevant posts will not be restored back.

    While exercising your right to disagree, you are advised to strictly observe the Forum Rules and Guidelines.

    Dhanvaad.

    ~ namjap ~
     
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  9. pk70

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    Re: Gurbani Contemplation - Selok Bhagat Kabir Ji

    Quotes from Vaheguru seejker, my response is in bold
    VS Pk70 ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    Thanks for your response. Let's agree to disagree without being disagreeable

    I don’t feel thankful for your response that is the truth, so no show off here from my side.

    I did not say “I feel sorry”. I said," I am sorry". I think the difference lies in where at and how each of us got our English skills. You also must have noticed that I never said my name was Tajinder Singh but Tejwant Singh. I presume it is an oversight which happens. I just expressed my desire to address you by your name not by some alphabets, but if you insist, I have no problems with that.
    Yes you do, it is not problem related to language, feeling sorry and you are sorry, there is not a big difference any way( who feels sorry actually is sorry) because words you used were based on my using of Id PK70 and name G Singh, only issue here is you just pointed to my name and Id and you forgot that you too use an ID and a Name
    I think you misunderstood what I said. I did not accuse anyone of using Manmat nor did I question anyone of using it. We are in a forum where I feel the need to remind myself of not using it hence I used the term 'WE" as Sikhs.
    I just said let it be left on the viewers who did manmatt, why do you feel insecure about this?

    Our Gurus never asked us to idolise them nor did they try to create any kind of superiority complex between them and the Sikhs. That is the reason there is no hierarchy in Sikhi. If there were then Siri Chand would have been our Second Guru rather than Guru Angad and Prithvi Chand are Fifth rather than Guru Arjan.
    Assumptions are assumptions, reality is that our second Guru is Guru Angad, your context was in question and definitely you and I are not even close to the standards of Guru Nanak in that context, it’s a fact, it doesn’t matter now in what kind of words you wrap it.

    When Guru Nanak says in japji ,' Sabh gun terei, mein nahin koi, vin gun kitei Bhagat Nan hoi". He was talking about all of us, not just about himself.
    Of course, but you fail to see that in the Vaak there is no concept of agreeing or disagreeing

    When Guru Gobiind Sngh took Khandei de pahul from the Panj Piayras, he showed us equality of all. He lowered himself to our level to pick us up to his.
    What it has to do with our agreeing or disagreeing? Nothing.

    With a lead pencil one can draw like Leonardo Da Vinci or kill someone. It is the same energy. It just depends how we utilise lt. Gurbani acts like the catalyst for us so that we can channelise our energy in the right ( Gurmat )way. It teaches us to become Leonardos or better to become Nanaks.
    People who cannot draw a straight line shouldn’t dream to become Leonardo Da Vinci, people who cannot have peace for a while after having opposed once, should also not dream to become Guru Nanak.

    Sikhi is all about learning and learning is a challenge. So I disagree with your above premise/statement. We are all capable of emulating and becoming Nanak.
    By merely disagreeing one doesn’t become Guru Nanak, Guru let his descendants to teach his word of wisdom for centuries and you just dream to become Nanak by disagreeing with some one. Its funny though to read such statement.

    I said:
    {Once again I do not understand what you are trying to say here. I have no problems if people make assumptions as some logical conclusions. I do not find anything wrong with that. We all make assumptions based on our knowledge which in my opinion is o.k. If you refrain from it as you said you do, which is fine with me.Hence, I use disagreement as a learning tool.}
    Thanks
    Well, again we disagree, which is o.k. In my opinion it is important to know about Kabir’s life and the environment he was raised in.
    I let you be in disagreement once I wrote “I beg to disagree” So it was I who disagreed, it was you who wrote that if I got email from Kabir ji and forced me to say that it was applicable to you too. You are disturbed and pose to be in peace, an illusion drowns people quite often.
    Well, this is the way I see the Salok for the reason I explained about repetition, it is fine with me if you see it differently. This is the beauty of Gurmat learning.
    Wow! Never knew to disagreeing is Gurmat learning
    Well, Facts are facts. In my opinion we can not run away from them nor shall we avoid them or ignore them. Present customs in Hinduism are the proofs of those facts that were also practiced then. And Kabir did mention the 5 negative forces in the previous Salok so according to me a great poet like Kabir would not repeat the same thing twice just by changing sons to sons and daughters in the next line. That is the beauty of his poetry.
    It is poetry form, in poetry, words dance, get repeated. You see I just cannot agree with you because Kabir ji is concentrated on “attachment” and other things five plus bring blows to the heart.
    Again we disagree on this.Nothing wrong with that.
    I never said it was wrong; it was you who was hit so hard by disagreement that you started picking on my ID and Name, no rational person did it before on this site. So the peaceful mind you are trying to show here is horribly disturbed.
    Once again, we see the same poetry from a different angle when we change it into prose. Nothing wrong with that according to me.
    So be it.

    I said,: {Thanks for sharing your understanding this time. I do appreciate that}

    And I said “you don’t” The reason is that I know your other side I hinted at in my comment in my last post; you also know that, only SPN members don’t know this.
    t is interesting to notice that you claim to know more about me than myself. It is quite presumptuous of you to say the least. I think it is important from the Gurmat value system to give the benefit of the doubt to others rather than playing them or pretending to know more about them than themselves.
    It is not pretending to know, it is a fact how hard my disagreement hit you from the day I posted that. Those deserve the benefit of doubt that admit what went in their heart after facing opposing views, that is not the case with you, still you are trying to show it is O.K to disagree but in realty it hit you like a storm. I do not hope to learn Gurmat from such individuals. No cover up of sweet words, I want to ooze out the truth.

    As mentioned before my name is not Tajinder Singh as you may have noticed. I am not offended by it
    You see,how much I paid attention to your name? I didn’t.
    You seem a bit offended which is not my intention.
    Wow, you have good intention towards me? What a surprise, how quickly people forget whatever they ever said before about others/
    If it is your presumption or imagination that I am zigzagging all over then I am sorry to have given that impression.
    You don’t need to be sorry, that is what I noticed as you noticed I couldn’t understand the difference between” I feel sorry “ and “ I am sorry” I call it a game of words instead of sticking to the point. No offense, you are stuck in here.
    That is your outlook not mine
    Of course, why should I wear a veil of words to cover the fact?
    . As I mentioned before we see the same Salok a bit differently this may cause a disagreement which is not a bad thing in my opinion.
    I never said otherwise, I wrote what I felt; you are just repeating it unnecessarily
    Once again, you seem angry and upset and claiming what I am saying is untrue. You seem to have a trust problem. It seems you do not believe in others’ words
    I am not up set or angry but it’s hard for me to trust your words because I have your words that state otherwise
    . I am not here to change your thought process.
    You would never
    If this is the way you think about others and do not allow yourself to give them the benefit of the doubt then I can not help you nor can I force you in doing so.
    You cannot help me because truly I feel you will be the last person I seek help in this regard
    I have no intention to offend you or anyone in this forum. I am here to interact and learn.
    Again I do not trust these words as per your other statements
    I said:

    {Enough said about these Saloks. Now please share with us your Gurmat wisdom and insights regarding other Saloks that Namjap- Santokh Singh has posted.

    I know I am eagerly waiting for yours perspective. As mentioned before I enjoy your angle of the Gurmat prism.}
    I am not here to put a “nice guy’s show” unlike you. I doubt I can say false things about people, if they impress me they do and I acknowledge, if they don’t, they just don’t, to please them or other viewers; I will not cook up comments to put them here. Baba Freed ji reminds me always to show what is in the heart, if due to this people don’t like me or praise me, so be it.
    ਜਿਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਮਨਿ ਹੋਰੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਹੋਰੁ ਸਿ ਕਾਂਢੇਕਚਿਆ
    Jinĥ man hor muk hor sė kāʼnde kaci▫ā. ||1||
    Those who have one thing in their heart, and something else in their mouth, are judged to be false. ||1||
    ਸੇਖ ਫਰੀਦ ਜੀ
    If I am not mistaken, he asked all of us discuss those saloks and as I said before, I enjoy your interpretations although at times we may disagree which is a great learning process for me.
    Well, I didn’t see my name but I saw yours.

    Thanks and Regards

    Tejwant Singh Not Tajinder Sing
    It really doesn’t matter to me. I value what they express than their names.
     
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  10. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Re: Gurbani Contemplation - Selok Bhagat Kabir Ji

    Pk70ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    I thought you were going to respond to a couple of your thoughts that I asked you to explain that I did not get, but you decided not to which is your prerogative which I do respect despite the fact that this forum is for Gurmat vichaar where interaction along with disagreement is a good learning process and this is not the last time we are going to disagree about this beautiful poetry in the SGGS.

    If our Gurus had written this as prose rather than in a poetic manner and given it to us on a platter, then it would have defeated the purpose of Shabad Vichaar.

    I have no idea why this tirade with so much anger and disdain. I am not offended by any of it. Just puzzled.

    The reason for this is that a person like you who knows so much Gurbani and love it deeply would react with so much ire and venom.

    I will leave that to Ik Ong Kaar because only HE is our ultimate judge and only HE knows which milestone each of us it at.You, myself or any other person will never find that milestone no matter how much we pretend or try to play Ik Ong Kaar.

    All I can do is pray to Ik Ong Kaar so that this venom can turn into an antidote one day. And with Guru's kirpa, I am sure it shall.

    Thanks for your input and savour your journey. As I said before and it is worth repeating that I enjoy your angle of the Gurbani interpretation and shall keep on doing it. And yes, we will disagree many times in the future through which I will keep on learning about Gurmat ideals.

    Regards

    Tejwant Singh.
     
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  11. pk70

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    Re: Gurbani Contemplation - Selok Bhagat Kabir Ji

     
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