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Yoga V/s Simran V/s Meditation?

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Tejwant Singh

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Original ji,

Guru Fateh.

And, that "something" is your belief, that something is Sikhi. Here is little something for you Bhagat Singh:

And

[The deeper the dive [veechar as thought process] the higher the transformation [human metamorphosis]. it is this transformation which the Gur Ghar describes as one of manmukh to gurmukh].

You keep on hopscotching between the two in several of your posts.It is either one or the other. Which one would you like to choose?


Once, all night long a devotee was chanting "Allah!" until his lips grew sweet with praise of Him.The Devil came up to him: "Hey noisy one, after calling so many 'Allahs,' where is the response of 'Here I am' to all these 'Allahs'? I don't hear any response coming from the Throne - how long will you continue chanting 'Allah'?"

The devotee's heart broke and he fell asleep. The devotee in his dream saw a spiritual guide in radiant green, who spoke thus, "You've stopped praising God - why have you repented of having called Him?"
The devotee replied, "Because no 'Here I am' came to me in answer, I feared that I might be one who is denied His Door."
Said the spiritual guide, "God wants you to know that every 'Allah' of yours is His 'Here I am,'
and that your prayer and grief and longing are His message to you. God is telling you:
Your efforts to find a way to Me were My drawing you to Me, and it freed your feet from their bonds.
Your trepidation and your love are the rope to catch My blessing - beneath every 'O Lord' of yours
is many a 'Here I am' of Mine.' "

Nice fairy tale. What does that have to do with Sikhi?

More another time, but by-the-by, Gur Teg Bahadhur sat for many years in meditation at Baba Bakala, now known as Gurdwara Bhora Sahib, latitude and longitude of Bakala is 7.11667 14.53333 respectively, in case your an ET and you don't know Sikh history [love n tell - joke].

It seems that you wholeheartedly believe and approve in the above fairy tale as part of Sikhi while I am certain that this story is totally against our Gurmat concept as shown to us by our Gurus in the SGGS. As you have admirable knowledge in Sikhi, would you be kind enough to explain your belief in the above concocted story as per Sikhi?

As you believe in the above, please share your views about Hemkunt too because both are borne from the same belief system.

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh
 

BhagatSingh

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The meaning of Meditation in Gurbani has been ignored on purpose even when asked.
Lol "ignore". Duuuude get off your lazy bum already and read what's already been posted several times throughout this small thread. I am sure you are capable of reading through a few pages, as to not interrupt the flow of the discussion that has already proceeded past that point.

Can you do that?

What is gurmat meditation or puja then? ਕੈਸੇ ਪੂਜ ਕਰਹਿ ਤੇਰੀ ਦਾਸਾ ॥ guru sahib answers ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਅਰਪਉ ਪੂਜ ਚਰਾਵਉ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਪਾਵਉ ॥੪॥ Surrender thought process which is not as per gurmat SGGS. 525-13. Now how to judge whether your thought process is as per gurmat ਕਿਨਿ ਬਿਧਿ ਮਿਲੀਐ ਕਿਨਿ ਬਿਧਿ ਬਿਛੁਰੈ ਇਹ ਬਿਧਿ ਕਉਣੁ ਪ੍ਰਗਟਾਏ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥ How can one meet the Lord? How one is separated from Him? Who can reveal the way to me? ||3|| SGGS.131. Oh my manh ਬਾਬਾ ਬੋਲੀਐ ਪਤਿ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਊਤਮ ਸੇ ਦਰਿ ਊਤਮ ਕਹੀਅਹਿ ਨੀਚ ਕਰਮ ਬਹਿ ਰੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ SGGS.16 and guru sahib list 'neech karam' in 16th pauree of japjisahib. Throughout gurbani emphasis on bhebekh budhi and finally says, ਪਿਆਰੇ ਇਨ ਬਿਧਿ ਮਿਲਣੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ਮੈ ਕੀਏ ਕਰਮ ਅਨੇਕਾ ॥ ਹਾਰਿ ਪਰਿਓ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਕੈ ਦੁਆਰੈ ਦੀਜੈ ਬੁਧਿ ਬਿਬੇਕਾ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ SGGS.641.18.' Thus gurmat meditation is cultivation of meaningful life by learning divine traits
I agree word-for-word and in spirit up to that point.

and not wasting time by focussing on one word.
That is anti-gurmat thought process. None of the shabads you have posted so far say what you are saying in this sentence. In fact, this will come as a surprise to you that they say the exact opposite. ;)

Bhagat Singh - Gurbani has all answers of your question and I will be listing soon.
Still waiting Japji. All the shabads you have quoted thus far only urge people to meditate. So I imagine finding one that says the opposite will be quite a struggle.

Take your time.
 

Tejwant Singh

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"BhagatSingh, post: 202333, member: 2610"]Lol "ignore". Duuuude get off your lazy bum already and read what's already been posted several times throughout this small thread. I am sure you are capable of reading through a few pages, as to not interrupt the flow of the discussion that has already proceeded past that point.

Can you do that?

Bhagat Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

There is no need to get angry and rude. I hope this is not the fruit of your meditation that you so gleefully talk about. We are all here to interact and learn from each other. If you do nitnem daily or read a shabad several times, there is no harm is expressing yourself again.

Respect is what one gets from Gurbani, not an attitude. At least that is the case for me.

Enjoy your journey.

Tejwant Singh
 

Ishna

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@BhagatSingh

If I can interject before @japjisahib04 has time to reply to you. It is my firm belief that Gurbani does not tell us to focus on any one word, chant any one word, or sit and meditate on one word.

The Naam is not a word. I can't describe Naam in its entirety; it is that flavour that gets mentioned, that only the one who tastes it can know. From what I've experienced (very small tastes of what I think was Naam) Naam is the Sat Naam, the perfect Reality of the universe, the Oneness, the Truth that is there if the veil of illusion is peeled away.

We peel back the veil by contemplating the Shabad, reflecting on life experiences, following the Hukam, and constantly keeping the Oneness, Reality, Naam in mind (remembering, dhiaaee, simran). This leads us to be virtuous at all times, because it is all One, it is all Ik Onkar.

Loving the Naam, treasuring it in your heart and mind is the real meditation that Gurbani is talking about, I believe.

I would always choose sitting down and reading and reflecting on Gurbani over sitting down and chanting one word. The lessons learned from the Guru open our mind to perceive the Naam. Everything else flows from here. The actual practice of meditation might be useful for easing anxiety and helping us to think more clearly, but I'm not convinced it's the gateway to Truth. The gateway is the Shabad which is found in the Gurbani and in a virtuous life.

imho.
 

BhagatSingh

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Okay, I can appreciate there might be a cultural clash here.
Yeah the larger western culture has no clue. However Psychologists, especially those who are involved with studying meditation, neurology, and abnormal behaviours - basically related fields - definitely do consider it a part of science.

Despite your input, I have to maintain then that from the position of the "Western" definition of science, what you're describing still comes under pseudoscience.
Ok but why don't you develop your own understanding by researching it?
As for what western scientists think - you need only look as far as Google Scholar. It should contain many free scientific papers on meditation.

However, I don't quite agree with your point of view, but I'm not able to articulate why yet. I get this a lot; I tend to feel the Gurbani to make up for my lack of intellectual knowledge about the language. Quite often what I feel initially is later validated when I learn enough, intellectually. For now I can only assume my feeling is informed by what I've encountered in the past and isn't realised in my conscious mind yet.
That I admire. Its a relief to hear that you are doing this
(and not merely contorting intellectual muscles).

Another possibility might be that you haven't grasped the full scope of what I am trying to explain or the larger picture of meditation. Maybe I am not doing a good job at it. I think further discussion will bring us closer no doubt, whether we agree fully or not.

So you said you wanted to hear why I think Pauri 38 is talking about meditation. Let's continue to discuss that -

Gurbani is talking about achieving an holistic state of mind and being that includes a deep, constant awareness of Ik Onkar which guides and influences our thoughts and actions.
Right. The gold coins that we are minting.
I agreed with you before when you stated this earlier and I agreed with Japji when he stated it again, and I agree with you now when you repeated yourself again.

Lol did I mention I agree with this part?

achieving an holistic state of mind and being that includes a deep, constant awareness of Ik Onkar which guides and influences our thoughts and actions.
Like I said before this is the XYZ, the end-goal. There are many steps before that.

To live continuously in a holistic state of being, where one is deeply immersed in God is hard.

And believe you me this is much harder than it sounds. japji keeps reminding me of that, however I already understand that this is difficult.

What I am really trying (hard) to put forth is the basics of Sikhi. The basic meaning - the ABC, the methodology by which we progress to the goalpost you out-lined.

Methodology is the key word. Guru Sahib is teaching us ways to open up to God.

So many tools and techniques themselves are brushed aside by the Gurbani.
They are actually not. Guru Sahib is brushing aside the idea that you can simply walk around with the tool and not really apply it and expect that tool to do its job.

Guru Sahib is encouraging people to use the tools they already have. And he also teaches them ( and us) how to use the tools they have (or ones he has given us). This is because Guru Sahib himself knows how to use the tools and so he can guide us on how we can use them as well.

The tools can be difficult to use, this is why it may require much instruction.

So what does that mean when we are talking about meditation or Jap?

Guru Sahib is saying that if you simply close your eyes and say God's name then you are not applying the tool I have given you; in addition, you also have to focus single-pointedly on His name.

Let's understand this word by word.

ਗਉੜੀ ਗੁਆਰੇਰੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
Guru Arjun Dev ji explains the Guru's importance and his teachings in Rag Gaurhi

ਬੰਧਨ ਤੋੜਿ ਬੋਲਾਵੈ ਰਾਮੁ ॥
The Guru (ਤੋੜਿ) breaks you away from your (ਬੰਧਨ) attachments, and (ਬੋਲਾਵੈ) makes you speak (ਰਾਮੁ) "Ram"! (this is the tool)

ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਲਾਗੈ ਸਾਚੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ॥
(He gets you to apply the tool)
(ਸਾਚੁ) truly/continuously (ਧਿਆਨੁ) focus single-mindedly on Ram, in your (ਮਨ) heart.

ਬੰਧਨ ਤੋੜਿ ਬੋਲਾਵੈ ਰਾਮੁ ॥ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਲਾਗੈ ਸਾਚੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ॥
Breaking your attachments, the Guru causes you chant the name of Ram, and then you single-mindedly focus on it in your heart.


ਮਿਟਹਿ ਕਲੇਸ ਸੁਖੀ ਹੋਇ ਰਹੀਐ ॥ ਐਸਾ ਦਾਤਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਕਹੀਐ ॥੧॥
The (ਕਲੇਸ) suffering is (ਮਿਟਹਿ) eradicated and (ਸੁਖੀ ਹੋਇ ਰਹੀਐ) one begins to live in peace. Such are (ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਕਹੀਐ) the words of the Guru himself, who (ਦਾਤਾ) is the giver.

What does he give us? this tool - chant Ram - with the knowledge on how to use it - focus single-mindedly on it.


ਸੋ ਸੁਖਦਾਤਾ ਜਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਵੈ ॥ ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਸੰਗਿ ਮਿਲਾਵੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
The (ਸੁਖਦਾਤਾ) peace-granting Guru makes you (ਜਪਾਵੈ) chant God's name, and like a catalyst, immerses you in God.

ਜਪ - there is that word 'jap' and ਬੋਲ - to say or utter and then to (ਧਿਆਨ) focus single-mindedly on it.

So Guru Arjun Dev ji says the guru is great because the guru teaches this method and that it brings results! And I can attest to his teachings.

So how does this relate to Paurhi 38?
 

Tejwant Singh

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I am kindly asking you to be polite and read the thread before you interrupt someone about a definition they provided right at the start.

Right back atcha!
If you do nitnem, there is no harm in reading a few posts.
Bhagat Singh ji,

Guru Fateh.

It is sad to notice that the only person being rude is you. This is a forum not a table chit chat, hence people can pitch in as they want. There is no interruption of any flow here. If you feel perturbed by it , then you should sort it out with yourself.

"Duuuude get off your lazy bum" is not the way to address anyone in this forum. We can all disagree with each other which we often do but that is a part of our learning process, not frothing. I thought you knew that . Please try to be respectful. Your 'meditation' should teach you that if nothing else.

Now coming back to Gurbani, there is no such term as 'meditation' in Gurbani. It is a mumbo jumbo invented by some for a feel good transitory high only, just like drugs as Harry ji put it.It is nothing but a trip to me-ism.

Gurbani is all about doing good.

Tejwant Singh
 

BhagatSingh

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"Duuuude get off your lazy bum" is not the way to address anyone in this forum.
It is proper way when they are being lazy. And it is a matter of fact that you didn't read my earlier posts. Even when I very politely requested several times.
If you feel perturbed by it , then you should sort it out with yourself.
It was you who was asking me questions that I had already answered, just prior to your posts. So why didn't you read my posts? Is that not lazy? And then when I pointed out to you that I had already answered them previously. You didn't read them and carried on asking your questions.

Who is being lazy? Who is being rude?


It is sad to notice that the only person being rude is you.
What is actually sad is that you want to have a discussion with me but don't actually want to read my posts. Even posts that are recent, being made as you speak, you don't even read those.

So who is being lazy? Who is being rude?

Please try to be respectful. Your 'meditation' should teach you that if nothing else.

It is a mumbo jumbo invented by some
Come down from your high horse and have a discussion properly. Or prepared to be called out on your laziness, condescending posts and blatantly shitty attitude towards those who disagree with you.

We shall converse tomorrow if you bother reading my posts that are relevant to the questions that you yourself asked me.

And much respect if you do!

Have a good day sir.
 
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Tejwant Singh

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It is proper way when they are being lazy. And it is a matter of fact that you didn't read my earlier posts. Even when I very politely requested several times.

It was you who was asking me questions that I had already answered, just prior to your posts. So why didn't you read my posts? Is that not lazy? And then when I pointed out to you that I had already answered them previously. You didn't read them and carried on asking your questions.

Who is being lazy? Who is being rude?



What is actually sad is that you want to have a discussion with me but don't actually want to read my posts. Even posts that are recent, being made as you speak, you don't even read those.

So who is being lazy? Who is being rude?




Come down from your high horse and have a discussion properly. Or prepared to be called out on your laziness and blatantly shitty attitude towards those who disagree with you.

We shall converse tomorrow if you bother reading my posts that are relevant to the questions that you yourself asked me.

And much respect if you do!

Have a good day sir.


Thanks for exhibiting the results of your meditation. Your rant is not worth responding to post by post. In case you did not get it, this is a forum where all discuss freely. If one feels one's flow is interrupted, then that person has problems with the self and should sort them out. If help is needed, this forum is here for that. There is no such thing as one to one here. I have read your posts which offer nothing but me-ism which you have been very well known for in this forum for quite some time.

Enjoy your journey.


Tejwant Singh
 

BhagatSingh

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If one feels one's flow is interrupted
Have you taken a look at this page? Is that not an interruption of the discussion that is happening? Why not just read what the other person has written before asking them questions?
Your rant is not worth responding to post by post.
After your demonstration, I don't expect you to read my posts, let alone my rants.

My experience with you hasn't been sunshine and rainbows either. So save your analysis and have a good one. God bless.

Let's get back to the topic at hand.
 

BhagatSingh

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Anyone who is has more of an Atheist or Scientific or Anti-Ritual mindset may find this lecture useful in understanding meditation.

Sam Harris, neurologist and atheist, author of books like "End of Faith" and "Free Will", eloquently introduces meditation and strips away mystical tones in order to explain in as simple terms as possible. He got me into it and I hope he can shed some light on it for you too.

 

Tejwant Singh

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I know Sam Harris personally. I like him a lot and read his books. He has come around the spiritual part of life which is a Sikhi concept as I explained to him once because an atheist is anti deity like Sikhi. Athiests are at par with Sikhi with the Creative Energy.He admitted that he is a sikh in every sense of the world. His idea of meditation is self contemplation just like Gurbani teaches us. He is also anti Muslim very similar to the Talibanic mentality towards non Muslims.
 

chazSingh

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Bhagat ji...

Life is tough...

On one hand you have waheguru grabbing your dyaan during simran and pulling you deep within your inner being and making himself known to you...

...on the other hand you have the forum crew telling you that you are doing it all wrong and are just having a drug like experience...

Time to chose....
 

chazSingh

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If my simran is one big drug like experience...then my waheguru is one hell of a drug manufacturer/deeler

His drug allows me to detach momentarily from the Web I am caught in and allow me to recognise my creator...to see his light and to hear his sound...and to be enveloped in His warmth and loving embrace...

I love that drug...I am addicted to it....never free me from that drug...ever.

God bless.
 

Harry Haller

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has it ever occurred to either of you that addiction to anything is not a great idea?
Is it possible that the reason we are supposed to also be householders is so that we remain grounded?

I thought the following quite interesting

Someone who is addicted to God is using the concept as an escape from their own lives. The balance is off. Instead of seeking help, they dissolve into an idea that God is directing every thought and action in their lives. They want to be a puppet and destroy those very things that God values in independent human beings. One can admire and appreciate a doll, but just as we can only love a real person, God doesn’t ask us to be robots in his service, but real human beings. The damage comes in the same way it arrives with other addictions. God addicts sacrifice their relationships, jobs and families in what they believe is service to a higher power. But it’s just as toxic and out of balance as any addiction. And just like other addictions, the obvious problems only seem to have one answer for the addict – increase the dose. Ever more is required to get them into the fantasy life. The answer is more prayer, or reading the Bible more, or striving ever harder to get the satisfaction and release of their own version of an enlightened state.

I am not lauding the site or anything contained in it, however this article struck a chord with me,

http://www.12step.com/articles/sober-living/addicted-god
 

Ishna

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BhagatSingh, I need to reply to you later as I have a lot of housework to do now. Thank you for your thoughts.

Chazji, the experience you describe as a result of your meditation I feel quite often in the waking moments, deep in my heart, consciously. The Creator is accessible in the here-and-now, imho.
 

Harry Haller

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His drug allows me to detach momentarily from the Web I am caught in and allow me to recognise my creator...to see his light and to hear his sound...and to be enveloped in His warmth and loving embrace...

can someone from the meditation lobby please tell me what the end game is here ? more of the same? does the warmth and loving embrace increase? what is it that you are looking for or hope to achieve?
 

Ishna

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I can see the usefulness of meditation as an activity for the mind. There is ample evidence, as BhagatSingh shared with the video. If some people use it focus their mind on the Creator, and then carry that in their heart while engaging with the world (which is simran, dhiaan, jap, etc.) then more power to them.

However, equating the practice of meditation with simran, dhiaan, jap, etc I think is a misnomer. It doesn't match with the rest of Gurbani. imho.

Anyway, I've got housework to do. :)
 
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