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Yoga V/s Simran V/s Meditation?

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BhagatSingh

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can we have subtitles for the meditation lobby? Just so that we can get a better of idea of what they are actually saying beyond what meditation makes them say at the time?

God bless! and thanks for sharing too!
It's like when you are watching a basketball game.... if you are new to basketball, you wonder what are they doing? what's going on? But by listening to the announcer, you can get some idea of the game (ie shoot the ball in the hoop). And as you get more and more involved with basket ball, you will start understand the ins and outs, the terminology, the rules, what it takes to play sports at a high level. Then you don't need the subtitles, then you get it.

But if you don't do that. If you don't listen to the announcer and don't learn about the game. Then you think it's just shooting a ball in a hoop and somehow it's just like taking drugs. There's no point of going into it and telling players that what they are doing is like taking drugs.

An experiment was carried out on meditating monks and the findings were truly remarkable. It was found after an EEG test that the four primary brain waves were almost completely synchronised, which otherwise in the ordinary joe bloggs appear out of synch, but in the case of these monks they aligned almost perfectly. What does that mean ? It meant that these monks were found to be living in a state of constant bliss, of happiness, of empathy for the world around them. They lived in the moment -
Good morning. I always enjoy your posts. They are puratan in an original wrapper.

I saw this video a while back. Not sure how it stands to today's technology but it's quite interesting to watch.
 

Harry Haller

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It's like when you are watching a basketball game.... if you are new to basketball, you wonder what are they doing? what's going on? But by listening to the announcer, you can get some idea of the game (ie shoot the ball in the hoop). And as you get more and more involved with basket ball, you will start understand the ins and outs, the terminology, the rules, what it takes to play sports at a high level. Then you don't need the subtitles, then you get it.

No, I think the subtitles are a good idea because after some interaction with meditation people, I am happy to confirm one thing, just like drugs, the meditation only works at the time of meditation, this explains why those that meditate are not the sublime happy peaceful people they would like to project themselves as. Education and learning, on the other hand, seep into your every life, not just the moment you are studying. It seems to me that meditation is only of any use to calm people of a certain persuasion down, so that they can be polite and friendly, through gritted teeth. I also sense a lack of moral code, because as long as that connection is there during the meditative period, you will kid yourself that you are receiving special messages from God, kid yourself that you are special, a minority, one of the chosen few, well good luck with that one, you could be connecting with any side of yourself, maybe even a thief in sheep's clothing!

But if you don't do that. If you don't listen to the announcer and don't learn about the game. Then you think it's just shooting a ball in a hoop and somehow it's just like taking drugs. There's no point of going into it and telling players that what they are doing is like taking drugs.

I will post a new thread, why meditation is like taking drugs, see you there!
 

BhagatSingh

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I am happy to confirm one thing, just like drugs, the meditation only works at the time of meditation
Hang on. Where did you pull that from? That's blatantly false. Not arguably... factually false.

Don't bother making a new thread if this is your basis for it. Instead read up on scientific studies done on meditation and it's long-term effects on the brain. That would be better use of your time in my view.
 

Harry Haller

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Hang on. Where did you pull that from? That's blatantly false. Not arguably... factually false.

Don't bother making a new thread if this is your basis for it. Instead read up on scientific studies done on meditation and it's long-term effects on the brain. That would be better use of your time in my view.

I am starting to see a common facet in you meditation folk, you like telling people what to do! Is this a side effect of the mumbling? Of course you know what is the best use of my time!

Well I am not much of a scientist, I am not a great lover of reading scientific studies, but what I have noticed is the sheer arrogance of the meditation community, I do not meditate, yet I am capable of writing posts, using my own account, and in my own name, without throwing my toys out of the pram, without threatening to leave, without getting angry, without getting stressed, I do believe its called Chardi Kala, and I am pretty sure I do not need to keep topping it up with early morning mumbling.

May I make a suggestion, although as I am not a meditation expert, I probably lack the arrogance and bullying nature, why not try not meditating and just live a little, I know its quite boring, and there is not carrot afterwards, you may not get to see your 13th {censored}, but that would be a better use of your time in my view

:)
 

Original

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Bhagat Singh

Sikhism is a science, ਪਹਿਲਾ ਪਾਣੀ ਜੀਉ ਹੈ ਜਿਤੁ ਹਰਿਆ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਇ [translation: first life is water in which other life forms develop p472 SGGSJ] consistent with the theory of evolution [Darwinian]. Albert Einstein summed it up as E = mc 2, that is, energy and matter are the one and the same albeit in different forms.

Reality as we perceive it is, matter n energy of which the human body is made. Humans have a physical dimension [body], but they also have, mental, emotional and spiritual dimensions. In order to realise what they are and to experience their full potential these dimensions need to be fully developed. The secret to a meaningful and harmonious life is to develop this spiritual dimension [kirit kar, vand shuk n nam jap, not necessarily utterance but reflection]. To do this, one need to reorientate themselves, new orientation towards spirituality will open a new window, new perspective, the spiritual perspective, thal vich tin vastu.....veechar [meditate, not necessarily with eyes close but open, aesthetic thinking, in your case painting passionately, p1429 SGGSJ]. It will affect the way the individual respond to the world, help redefine the way daily life is approached, redefine values and priorities. Moreover, it will provide the individual with a true picture of who and what we as humans are and what are roles and responsibilities are. With a spiritual worldview, the individual will better understand her/his nature and the potential [chardi kala] to do well in life.

More another time
 

BhagatSingh

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And with that smiley face your passive aggressive attacks and derogatory remarks begin.

I am starting to see a common facet in you meditation folk, you like telling people what to do! Is this a side effect of the mumbling?
For someone who accuses "meditation folk" of things, you are acting like quite a cartoon.
Maybe it's not them but your own behaviour that warrants those responses. Have you thought about that?

Imagine -
Jane doesn't know the abc of basketball but goes into basketball courts to tell the players how what they are doing is wrong and it like doing drugs.
What would the players' response be? Either they would say "Get out!" if they don't want to bother with Jane.
If they are Jane's friends/If they want to be polite they would recommend that Jane try basketball for herself and learn about it before passing judgements on it.

Well I am not much of a scientist,
That's not a surprise. A true scientist at heart wants to learn things. He is curious and he is open to new things. You however dismiss things after having done nothing to understand them.
And when I tell you what you could do, to understand it, you start bitching about it. You yourself asked me for subtitles. As a good friend I gave you the subtitles. If someone else had said that I would have ignored them.

It's like if Jane's friends told her, she needs to play basketball and understand the game before ranting, and instead of taking their advice, she starts bitching at them. What are they supposed to do in that case? Should they abandon Jane altogether? or should they try to get her to see it?

Of course you know what is the best use of my time!
Of course I do. It's simple. If you are going to make a factual claim that "meditation does not have long-term effects", all the while, ignoring studies which show that it does have long-term effects, ie they prove you wrong, then in order to advance the discussion, you are going to have to read those and correct yourself.

You should know that's pretty much what I do, is correct people! :D

Anyways, so you either read those articles yourself, or you take my word for it. If you do neither of those, then there cannot be a discussion on that topic. This is a discussion forum after all, so you are expected to do one of those things to advance the discussion. You can't skip that part and then throw a tantrum when people tell you that you can't skip it.

I am not a great lover of reading scientific studies, but what I have noticed is the sheer arrogance of the meditation community, I do not meditate, yet I am capable of writing posts, using my own account, and in my own name, without throwing my toys out of the pram, without threatening to leave, without getting angry, without getting stressed, I do believe its called Chardi Kala, and I am pretty sure I do not need to keep topping it up with early morning mumbling.
And this is the tantrum. Meditation people are all arrogant and bullies and you are the victim of their arrogance and bullying. You poor little thing.
" wa wa wa I don't know anything about meditation but I'll throw a tantrum whenever i get corrected on topics I don't know about wa wa wa".

Like I said, it's your behaviour that causes others to respond to you in a way they do. They get fed up with you pestering them without you making any effort to learn.

May I make a suggestion, although as I am not a meditation expert, I probably lack the arrogance and bullying nature, why not try not meditating and just live a little, I know its quite boring, and there is not carrot afterwards, you may not get to see your 13th {censored}, but that would be a better use of your time in my view
:)
You mad bro? you mad?

you may not get to see your 13th {censored}
Oh man you are definitely angry. That's a new insult, haven't heard that from you before. You always get creative when you are angry lol. How long have we known each other now?
 

BhagatSingh

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Bhagat Singh

Sikhism is a science, ਪਹਿਲਾ ਪਾਣੀ ਜੀਉ ਹੈ ਜਿਤੁ ਹਰਿਆ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਇ [translation: first life is water in which other life forms develop p472 SGGSJ] consistent with the theory of evolution [Darwinian]. Albert Einstein summed it up as E = mc 2, that is, energy and matter are the one and the same albeit in different forms.

Reality as we perceive it is, matter n energy of which the human body is made. Humans have a physical dimension [body], but they also have, mental, emotional and spiritual dimensions. In order to realise what they are and to experience their full potential these dimensions need to be fully developed. The secret to a meaningful and harmonious life is to develop this spiritual dimension [kirit kar, vand shuk n nam jap, not necessarily utterance but reflection]. To do this, one need to reorientate themselves, new orientation towards spirituality will open a new window, new perspective, the spiritual perspective, thal vich tin vastu.....veechar [meditate, not necessarily with eyes close but open, aesthetic thinking, in your case painting passionately, p1429 SGGSJ]. It will affect the way the individual respond to the world, help redefine the way daily life is approached, redefine values and priorities. Moreover, it will provide the individual with a true picture of who and what we as humans are and what are roles and responsibilities are. With a spiritual worldview, the individual will better understand her/his nature and the potential [chardi kala] to do well in life.

More another time
Yea I completely agree with your post.

Well aside from this-
This is mistranslation of the tuk. It doesn't say "life is water" or "life forms develop in water" in the gurmukhi. This is not talking about Darwin's or Einstein's theory.

ਪਹਿਲਾ ਪਾਣੀ ਜੀਉ ਹੈ ਜਿਤੁ ਹਰਿਆ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਇ
(ਪਹਿਲਾ ) First (ਪਾਣੀ) water (ਹੈ) is (ਜੀਉ) alive, (ਜਿਤੁ) which then makes (ਸਭੁ ਕੋਇ) everything else (ਹਰਿਆ) come to life!
First water is alive, it then makes everything alive.

This is significant. Guru Sahib says water is alive. It carries consciousness and is an energetic living system.
 

Harry Haller

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And with that smiley face your passive aggressive attacks and derogatory remarks begin.

sorry that's too complicated for me, its just a smiley face.

or someone who accuses "meditation folk" of things, you are acting like quite a cartoon.

yes, I like to think this way of acting suits me, you should see what I look like in real life
Maybe it's not them but your own behaviour that warrants those responses. Have you thought about that?
If my behaviour is warranting such responses, maybe the key is more meditation to counter it?

Imagine -
Jane doesn't know the abc of basketball but goes into basketball courts to tell the players how what they are doing is wrong and it like doing drugs.
What would the players' response be? Either they would say "Get out!" if they don't want to bother with Jane.
If they are Jane's friends/If they want to be polite they would recommend that Jane try basketball for herself and learn about it before passing judgements on it.

this is not an accurate scenario, allow me to give you the accurate scenario

Jane does not know the abc of basketball, but is quite happy playing chess. The trouble is the basketball players keep disturbing Jane's chess game, and in the end she states that basketball is not chess.

If they were polite they would just play basketball and not go around invading peoples quiet chess games.

That's not a surprise. A true scientist at heart wants to learn things. He is curious and he is open to new things. You however dismiss things after having done nothing to understand them.
And when I tell you what you could do, to understand it, you start bitching about it. You yourself asked me for subtitles. As a good friend I gave you the subtitles. If someone else had said that I would have ignored them.

I don't want to learn 'things', I want to learn the truth, I have never shown any interest in meditation, I thought I made that quite clear, so what do you insist on 'telling me what to do'? Can't you take a hint? are you on a percentage for each conversion?

It's like if Jane's friends told her, she needs to play basketball and understand the game before ranting, and instead of taking their advice, she starts bitching at them. What are they supposed to do in that case? Should they abandon Jane altogether? or should they try to get her to see it?

I have no friends, which is probably why I am getting confused here, because to me, true friendship is to be truly accepting of people, maybe she bitches at them because she finds their attitude that they know everything, arrogant and patronising?

Of course I do. It's simple. If you are going to make a factual claim that "meditation does not have long-term effects", all the while, ignoring studies which show that it does have long-term effects, ie they prove you wrong, then in order to advance the discussion, you are going to have to read those and correct yourself.

Meditation may well have long term effects, I don't know, or care for that matter, the point I was actually making was that for all the meditation that you may do at 4am, judging from recent posts, it does not seem to translate into calmness, peace and love for all when not meditating. I find you all quite precious actually
 

Harry Haller

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You should know that's pretty much what I do, is correct people! :D

I will let you know when you have achieved that with me

Anyways, so you either read those articles yourself, or you take my word for it. If you do neither of those, then there cannot be a discussion on that topic. This is a discussion forum after all, so you are expected to do one of those things to advance the discussion. You can't skip that part and then throw a tantrum when people tell you that you can't skip it.
I did read it, and the tantrum appears to be yours not mine
And this is the tantrum. Meditation people are all arrogant and bullies and you are the victim of their arrogance and bullying. You poor little thing.
" wa wa wa I don't know anything about meditation but I'll throw a tantrum whenever i get corrected on topics I don't know about wa wa wa".

I do not recall saying I was a victim, I quite enjoy these discussions, to date, I do not believe I have ever turned tail and run away, although that does seem a common tactic for the meditation lobby, I guess your running away to meditate or something

Like I said, it's your behaviour that causes others to respond to you in a way they do. They get fed up with you pestering them without you making any effort to learn.

I see, its all my fault?
You mad bro? you mad?
yes....

Oh man you are definitely angry. That's a new insult, haven't heard that from you before. You always get creative when you are angry lol. How long have we known each other now?

a while, and I did not write this angry, actually I was giggling, I thought it was quite funny, I find it quite hard to get angry, its a failing in me

to wit

Yoga is nothing like Simran
(see what I did there, I kept it on topic!)
 

Original

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Yea I completely agree with your post.

Well aside from this-
This is mistranslation of the tuk. It doesn't say "life is water" or "life forms develop in water" in the gurmukhi. This is not talking about Darwin's or Einstein's theory.

ਪਹਿਲਾ ਪਾਣੀ ਜੀਉ ਹੈ ਜਿਤੁ ਹਰਿਆ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਇ
(ਪਹਿਲਾ ) First (ਪਾਣੀ) water (ਹੈ) is (ਜੀਉ) alive, (ਜਿਤੁ) which then makes (ਸਭੁ ਕੋਇ) everything else (ਹਰਿਆ) come to life!
First water is alive, it then makes everything alive.

This is significant. Guru Sahib says water is alive. It carries consciousness and is an energetic living system.

Bhagat Singh

Your interpretation is correct. The point I was trying to advance was that Sikhi and Darwinian theory of evolution both point to "life" [noun] having started in water. Yes, gur ghar use "alive" [adjective] and I used a noun, simply to borne out the similarity between the two. Its like saying on the one hand, green apple and on the other, apple is green, the objective here is colour green. Similarly, the point I was advancing was life started in water.

Goodnight
 

Tejwant Singh

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Original ji,

Guru Fateh.

You write:

Sikhism is a science, ਪਹਿਲਾ ਪਾਣੀ ਜੀਉ ਹੈ ਜਿਤੁ ਹਰਿਆ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਇ [translation: first life is water in which other life forms develop p472 SGGSJ] consistent with the theory of evolution [Darwinian]. Albert Einstein summed it up as E = mc 2, that is, energy and matter are the one and the same albeit in different forms.

But in your past threads you claimed Sikhi is based on faith and belief not on science- reasoning, thought process etc. etc. This is just one example that you addressed to me here: http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/threads/faith-and-sikhism.44912/page-2#post-202010, you say:

If you read all my posts from the day I subscribed, I always maintained that "faith-belief" cannot be entertained within the jurisdictions of "rationality" and "empirical observation" because their subject-matter [God] does not fall under "knowledge" but under "belief" which has only "subjectivity" testing.

Have you changed your mind regarding your earlier "belief"? It seems you do not have "faith" in your earlier assertions any more.

Can you please explain this change?

Thanks & regards

Tejwant Singh

PS: Then we can discuss about vichaar- contemplation on knowledge- in your post and your meaning of meditation as you explained in your posts earlier, later.
 

Ishna

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Some fascinating discussion occurring here today, but I implore all members to please leave the meditation argument alone for a while.

Original Ji, :)

I personally try not to make too many connections between science and Gurbani. This is my personal view. When I say 'science' I mean the study of the material world. To me, Gurbani's focus is on the inner human experience. Many a belief system has been undermined by having it's apparent scientific claims disproven.

Original Ji said:
The secret to a meaningful and harmonious life is to develop this spiritual dimension [kirit kar, vand shuk n nam jap, not necessarily utterance but reflection]. To do this, one need to reorientate themselves, new orientation towards spirituality will open a new window, new perspective, the spiritual perspective, thal vich tin vastu.....veechar [meditate, not necessarily with eyes close but open, aesthetic thinking, in your case painting passionately, p1429 SGGSJ]. It will affect the way the individual respond to the world, help redefine the way daily life is approached, redefine values and priorities.

I totally agree with your statement here. How do you translate veechar as 'meditate'? I always understood this term as contemplation and deep thinking. I see how this could overlap with meditation as a focused state of mind, but meditation is usually characterised as an activity in controlling the mind and relaxing the body. If meditation is a 'passive' exercise of the mind, veechar would be an 'active' exercise. In fact, Dr. Surinder Singh Kohli does translate veechar is 'thought, consideration, reflection', not meditation.

Please forgive me if I am splitting hairs.
 

BhagatSingh

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a while, and I did not write this angry, actually I was giggling, I thought it was quite funny, I find it quite hard to get angry, its a failing in me
That's the spirit.

But you didn't address my point that in order to know about Basketkball, you'd have to play and know the ins and outs of basketball, the rules, the terminology. Similarly, if you wanted to know about Meditation, you'd have to do it and know the ins and outs of meditation, the rules, the terminology.

Another point you didn't address is...
, just like drugs, the meditation only works at the time of meditation,
If you are going to make the claim that meditation is like taking drugs. You better be able to back it up, which you did but it turns out you are wrong.
Meditation does have healthy long-term effects regardless of what your personal interactions are like. So that puts a serious dent in your "meditation is like drugs" theory.

You haven't addressed that.


Bhagat Singh

Your interpretation is correct. The point I was trying to advance was that Sikhi and Darwinian theory of evolution both point to "life" [noun] having started in water. Yes, gur ghar use "alive" [adjective] and I used a noun, simply to borne out the similarity between the two. Its like saying on the one hand, green apple and on the other, apple is green, the objective here is colour green. Similarly, the point I was advancing was life started in water.

Goodnight
I don't see why that would matter. Even if Sikhism disagreed with Darwin or Einstein, it could still be a science.

Original Ji, :)

I personally try not to make too many connections between science and Gurbani. This is my personal view. When I say 'science' I mean the study of the material world. To me, Gurbani's focus is on the inner human experience. Many a belief system has been undermined by having it's apparent scientific claims disproven.
"Study of the material world" is quite a limited definition Ishna. Science doesn't have to be materialistic. This definition of science excludes spiritual sciences like yog vidya. It also excludes fields in psychology, which also deal with subjective things.

Science has to be do with repetition. If an experiment works when repeated, if it gives similar results over many studies then that feeds into a theory, which then leads to more experiments. Experiments -> Results -> Theory -> Experiments -> Results -> Theory, you get this loop. And as long as the results are there, the theory is valid. If you repeat the experiment and you find that you are no longer getting the results, you have to abandon that theory.

If you read Yog Sutra of Patanjali, he is actually describing an experiment. He puts forward a theory -> then experiment -> then results. This experiment is older than 2000 years. It's been done time and time again over eons and the results have been replicated. If you wanted to test his theory yourself, all you would have to do is repeat the experiment yourself.

Yog vidya is a science. It's not quantitative science, you cannot measure and put numbers on things. It's rather a qualitative science because yog has to do with inner subjectivity. Where things can only be described. There are also endeavours to study the spiritual world via Out of Body Experiences. Such experiments would have to be entirely descriptive, since OBEs are subjective experience.

So there can be a spiritual science. It would have to be descriptive, it would have to be qualitative. It's still a science because you can definitely repeat the experiment and test the results and theory in question.
 

Harry Haller

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But you didn't address my point that in order to know about Basketkball, you'd have to play and know the ins and outs of basketball, the rules, the terminology. Similarly, if you wanted to know about Meditation, you'd have to do it and know the ins and outs of meditation, the rules, the terminology.

look pal, I am just trying to play chess here , and its a really good game, I like it, a lot better than basketball, but your telling me I cannot dislike basketball until I know about it, even though what I have seen so far repels me. That's no big deal, what I resent is people telling me that basketball is much better than chess, and I should try it, well, upto about 5 seconds ago, I do believe I was still capable of making my own mind up. No, what really gets my goat is you guys storming my chess room every five minutes telling me how great it is, well good for you, why not just try keeping it to yourself?
If you are going to make the claim that meditation is like taking drugs. You better be able to back it up, which you did but it turns out you are wrong.
If you have never taken drugs you are not qualified to make that statement, I prefer first hand experience rather than someone else scientific study, I can read about how it feels to be bitten by an alligator all day, the scientific study, the biology, the what happens after, etc etc, but to be honest, nothing beats being bitten by an alligator first hand!

Meditation does have healthy long-term effects regardless of what your personal interactions are like. So that puts a serious dent in your "meditation is like drugs" theory.
whats the point?

I mean what's the point of meditation having healthy long term effects if your personal interactions are still poor? Given that , in my view, Creator is in everything, then personal interaction is how we communicate with each other and thus with Creator. I guess if your only interest is personal interaction with what you feel is Creator and that other interactions are not important, then it works for you.

If meditating all night does not help you interact with people, if it does not centre you, if you still scream and shout and throw your toys out of your pram, what's the point?

sure you don't want to start another thread? I will pass if it stresses you out
 

BhagatSingh

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you guys storming my chess room every five minutes telling me how great it is, well good for you, why not just try keeping it to yourself?

Excuse me? I believe you are in the basketball court right now, telling people how basketball is wrong.

Yoga v/s Simran ?

(that's the basketball court)


nothing beats being bitten by an alligator first hand!

Indeed! I am glad we agree on something.


I mean what's the point of meditation having healthy long term effects if your personal interactions are still poor?

That's like asking "what's the point in playing basketball if you still suck at soccer?"

So you are judging basketball players on their lack of soccer skills... then you wonder why those basketball players are mad at you. Hahaha
 

Ishna

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Since the thread is Yoga vs Simran, it's actually not about meditation per se. Any similar argument would be whether simran is meditation or not, and not the value (or not) of meditation itself.

I think you two can take your debate to PMs or a new thread, don't you?
 

japjisahib04

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Yog vidya is a science. It's not quantitative science, you cannot measure and put numbers on things. It's rather a qualitative science because yog has to do with inner subjectivity
Who could be more knowledgeable in Yog vidhya then Swami Ramdev. I have personally met him and have seen several session of his on TV. Despite his achievements, he is most controversial, corrupt, ran away from pandal in ladies outfit. You just pamper him and observe his body language. Thus if manh maila sabh kitch maila. lokan raam khilona jaana. If it would have been that easy to achieve creative bliss to be able to cultivate meaningful life, (yes dumb bliss can be achieved) market would have been flooded with Apps on meditation, repetition.

Gurbani also says, ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਤ ਕਪਟੁ ਕਮਾਵਹਿ ਹਿਰਦਾ ਸੁਧੁ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥ By Meditating on har har, deception remains

ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਕਰਮ ਕਰਹਿ ਬਹੁਤੇਰੇ ਸੁਪਨੈ ਸੁਖੁ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥੧॥
He may perform all sorts of rituals, night and day, but he shall not find peace, even in dreams. ||1||
ਗਿਆਨੀ ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਭਗਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥
O so called wise ones, without the Guru, there is no devotional worship.
ਕੋਰੈ ਰੰਗੁ ਕਦੇ ਨ ਚੜੈ ਜੇ ਲੋਚੈ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
no matter how much everyone may practice, it is like . ||1||Pause||
ਜਪੁ ਤਪ ਸੰਜਮ ਵਰਤ ਕਰੇ ਪੂਜਾ ਮਨਮੁਖ ਰੋਗੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥
The self-willed manmukh may perform chants, meditations, austere self-discipline, fasts and devotional worship, but his sickness does not go away.
ਅੰਤਰਿ ਰੋਗੁ ਮਹਾ ਅਭਿਮਾਨਾ ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ਖੁਆਈ ॥੨॥
Deep within him is the sickness of excessive egotism; in the love of duality he is ruined. ||2||
 
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