Yes Kesh, Why Tied?

[max314]

I think one thing all Sikhs need to realise is that as a quom, we are a heavily symbolic people. Much more so than average in my opinion (i.e. compared to the groups around us).

Curious, is it not, that from a philosophy that originated on that very rejection of symbolism and value in cloth is now one of the single biggest advocates of its uses.

It bears thinking about.

I see nothing wrong with this. Even the 5 Ks.

I never actually said it was "wrong". Simply that it could be argued that it is outdated.

You say it is out date, but look at "modern" England. They still have people dressed up in gowns and wigs like they were in the 17th century in their legal system, which is central to the whole country. My point being we certainly are not the only ones doing this and others from the "developed" world have no problem with it, so how is it outdated?

Here's the thing: I think that even this is outdated.

So I stand by my comments.

(Besides, as the bar and legal practice insitutions beging to merge into what is now following the American legal structure, those wigs are soon going to become a thing of the past within the next fifty odd years anyway.)

I love the fact that Nihungs today wear 10 pags in rememberence of defiance by Singhs who wore paghs despite a ban being placed on them doing so. It is basically a statement of defiance and self esteem. I think any true spirited Panjabi can relate to this, and would love it, whether mona or otherwise. We owe our existence to these "outdated" things.

Indeed we do, and they should be duly honoured in whichever way people deem necessary.

 

[dalsingh]

Curious, is it not, that from a philosophy that originated on that very rejection of symbolism and value in cloth is now one of the single biggest advocates of its uses.

It bears thinking about.



I never actually said it was "wrong". Simply that it could be argued that it is outdated.



Here's the thing: I think that even this is outdated.

So I stand by my comments.

(Besides, as the bar and legal practice insitutions beging to merge into what is now following the American legal structure, those wigs are soon going to become a thing of the past within the next fifty odd years anyway.)



Indeed we do, and they should be duly honoured in whichever way people deem necessary.

If all Sikhs started to believe that the distinct look of the Khalsa was outdated and dropped it for this, I don't think we as a community would be better off.

I accept there has always been a mix of sehajdhari and keshdhari Sikhs, and so will it remain.

But when people within the Sikh community start to suggest that full bana Sikhs are outdated, it is a sad day indeed.

You did make this interesting point:

"Curious, is it not, that from a philosophy that originated on that very rejection of symbolism and value in cloth is now one of the single biggest advocates of its uses.

It bears thinking about."

But most Sikhs believe that in spirit all Gurus were one (this is nothing new and was propagated during the Gurus lifetimes itself), so could it not be said that instead of change it was actually development of the panth taking place. If the external symbols and militancy wasn't introduced, Sikhism may not have survived the Moghul onslaught it had to endure.

 

[dalsingh]

Also it isn't out of date because it gives us a template of what to do if we ever encounter similar circumstances, God forbid.

 

[max314]

If all Sikhs started to believe that the distinct look of the Khalsa was outdated and dropped it for this, I don't think we as a community would be better off.

I never said that the "look of the Khalsa" should be "dropped", dear friend.

I accept there has always been a mix of sehajdhari and keshdhari Sikhs, and so will it remain.

I see no reason to think otherwise.

But when people within the Sikh community start to suggest that full bana Sikhs are outdated, it is a sad day indeed.

Are you saying that underwear held together by a nala instead of elastic is not "outdated"?

You did make this interesting point:

"Curious, is it not, that from a philosophy that originated on that very rejection of symbolism and value in cloth is now one of the single biggest advocates of its uses.

It bears thinking about."

But most Sikhs believe that in spirit all Gurus were one (this is nothing new and was propagated during the Gurus lifetimes itself)...

You know, I've always wondered how this is possible when the Gurus' lifetimes overlapped one anothers'. It's one of the ideas that I pay no credence to, especially since neither its verification nor its invalidaion has any bearing on the Truth, and - if anything - does nothing but distract one from it.

...so could it not be said that instead of change it was actually development of the panth taking place. If the external symbols and militancy wasn't introduced, Sikhism may not have survived the Moghul onslaught it had to endure.

Indeed. Those "external symbols" were needed in order to have "survived the Moghul onslaught it had to endure".

But that was three centuries ago.

Whilst honouring those symbols is important (and I made this opinion quite clear at the end of my last post), does this eliminate the idea that - three hundred years later - at least some of these symbols could be classified as being "outdated"?

 

[max314]

Also it isn't out of date because it gives us a template of what to do if we ever encounter similar circumstances, God forbid.

Indeed. Though, once again, I fail to see how underwear that is held together exclusively by a nala instead of elastic is ever going to help save the world.

 

[dalsingh]

Indeed. Though, once again, I fail to see how underwear that is held together exclusively by a nala instead of elastic is ever going to help save the world.

Point taken, but the message behind it, regarding soldiers not being bhalatkars ( or rapists), proved to be quite effective, Even Afghans who invaded Panjab, noted this (see quote below). Many peasant panjabis had/have problems with restraint in this area (infact nearly every single Panjabi film made in the 1980s was about this jat rapist versus the noble jat theme). The concept behind the kachera attacked this from my understanding, it represented sexual restraint in a time when this was unthought of in war situations. So yes, it wont save the world but it is still needed as a concept to explain things to some very forceful and randy farmers back home at least. But living in the England Max, don't you notice how promiscuity seems to be the norm here? Again the concept behind the kachera becomes useful, so we don't get crabs/AIDS and stay away from slappers...lol


"Leaving aside their mode of war, hear you of another aspect that distinguishes them among warriors. At no time do they kill one who is not a man (namard). Nor would they obstruct the path of a fugitive. They do not plunder the wealth and ornaments of a women, be she a well to do lady or a maid servant. There is no adultery amongst these Sikhs, nor are these people given to thieving. Whether a women is young or old they tell her "budiya go occupy a corner." The word budiya in the Hindi language means old women. "

Qazi Nur Mohamad in Jang Namah. Compiled in 1765.

Don't get me wrong though, I understand your sentiment, but personally I admire those who still have the balls to wear bana, it is sad if other Sikhs perceive them as archaic or outdated.

 

[dalsingh]

Max, its cool, I think many people will be thinking like you in the future. But as long as your loyalty and love remains with Sikhism and doesn't jump elsewhere, its not a problem.

But be a bit sensitive to your bros and sis's who wear bana!

 

[max314]

Point taken, but the message behind it, regarding soldiers not being bhalatkars ( or rapists), proved to be quite effective, Even Afghans who invaded Panjab, noted this (see quote below). Many peasant panjabis had/have problems with restraint in this area (infact nearly every single Panjabi film made in the 1980s was about this jat rapist versus the noble jat theme). The concept behind the kachera attacked this from my understanding, it represented sexual restraint in a time when this was unthought of in war situations. So yes, it wont save the world but it is still needed as a concept to explain things to some very forceful and randy farmers back home at least.

Allow me to make it clear that I've always agreed 110% with the symbol of sexual restraint and self-control.

What bothers me is people who think their souls will be ripped out through their skulls by dark spirits (no joke) unless they wear nala-based underwear.

I find it disturbing that people forget that the 5Ks were created for practical reasons, and actually had very little to do with God. Guru Gobind Singh Ji created them out of tenacity, not divinity. They were all based firmly in the realm of maya, and with good reason. Maya is our world. It may not be the full world, but it's the world that we have fought and died for in order to affect change within it.

The very essence of kirt karo.

But living in the England Max, don't you notice how promiscuity seems to be the norm here? Again the concept behind the kachera becomes useful, so we don't get crabs/AIDS and stay away from slappers...lol

What people do with their time and their bodies is not my business, but I personally do not intend to become involved with anyone until marriage. I don't have 'strict' parents; they are fairly open-minded. But I do have parents who understand the importance of communication. Me and my younger brother and sister have all been brought up in the same way, and we all share the same set of values, which goes to show that raising Asian kids in a moderate household is not a lost cause with some good parenting.

I have seen the amount of distress caused by sexual overactivity in some of my friends is simply a reaffirmation that my life choices are the right ones.

Excess of anything is bad. That includes an excess of spirituality, an excess of materialism, etc. Sikkhi tells of striking the correct balance.

"Leaving aside their mode of war, hear you of another aspect that distinguishes them among warriors. At no time do they kill one who is not a man (namard). Nor would they obstruct the path of a fugitive. They do not plunder the wealth and ornaments of a women, be she a well to do lady or a maid servant. There is no adultery amongst these Sikhs, nor are these people given to thieving. Whether a women is young or old they tell her "budiya go occupy a corner." The word budiya in the Hindi language means old women. "

Qazi Nur Mohamad in Jang Namah. Compiled in 1765.

Exemplary behaviour.

Did you know that even American troops in Afghanistan and Iraq have been raping civilian women?

Don't get me wrong though, I understand your sentiment, but personally I admire those who still have the balls to wear bana, it is sad if other Sikhs perceive them as archaic or outdated.

I too admire people who wear bana, and who represent a noble and commendable philosophy.

I don't, however, admire people who follow in a sheep-like fashion. It was precisely that sheep-like mentality and narrow-minded dogmatism that the Gurus attempted to break people out of. And these dogmatisms come out of people who orally add bits and bobs to gurbani and give wrong interpretations that are considered 'the norm' after three hundred years. What I find is that many people have simply broken old bonds only to go on to form entirely new ones.

 

[max314]

Max, its cool, I think many people will be thinking like you in the future. But as long as your loyalty and love remains with Sikhism and doesn't jump elsewhere, its not a problem.

But be a bit sensitive to your bros and sis's who wear bana!

I do my best, but sometimes diplomacy and tact just gets in the way of tackling the real issue.

I hope I've made it perfectly clear that my feelings towards the wearing of bana is overly positive (I was born into a Sikkh family, and I suspect that my bias towards the Sikkh image will remain for many years). But I do disapprove of what I perceive to be abuse of the Sikkh philosophy.

I understand it will be a controversial viewpoint, but I honestly believe that abuse of Sikkh philosophy began almost immediately after the passing of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. The Tenth Master was, in effect, the only ever true practicioner of the Khalsa that I am aware of.

This abuse was undoubtedly unintentional. But I do believe it took place.

If you want to know more, I will tell you. But I will give you a heads up that it is potentially volatile material that you and others may not like.

I don't believe I am saying anything wrong, however. It is regrettable, but it isn't wrong.

 

[dalsingh]

Did you know that even American troops in Afghanistan and Iraq have been raping civilian women?.

Really! Is this true, where did you hear that!

I understand it will be a controversial viewpoint, but I honestly believe that abuse of Sikkh philosophy began almost immediately after the passing of Guru Gobind Singh Ji. The Tenth Master was, in effect, the only ever true practicioner of the Khalsa that I am aware of.

This abuse was undoubtedly unintentional. But I do believe it took place.

If you want to know more, I will tell you. But I will give you a heads up that it is potentially volatile material that you and others may not like.

I don't believe I am saying anything wrong, however. It is regrettable, but it isn't wrong.

This is no big secret to people who have studied Sikh history, Sikhs under Banda kicked off with the Tat Khalsa within a few years of the Guru passing. Plus living up to Guru Ji is not something easy to do, but he left us with an awesome role model.

I too admire people who wear bana, and who represent a noble and commendable philosophy.

I don't, however, admire people who follow in a sheep-like fashion. It was precisely that sheep-like mentality and narrow-minded dogmatism that the Gurus attempted to break people out of. And these dogmatisms come out of people who orally add bits and bobs to gurbani and give wrong interpretations that are considered 'the norm' after three hundred years. What I find is that many people have simply broken old bonds only to go on to form entirely new ones..

I think we can agree on this, I'm not keen on paranoid dogmatic practice either. But let them be.

 

[max314]

Really! Is this true, where did you hear that!

Believe it or not, my mum told me!

She said she'd heard women's accounts on some radio station about how they'd been abused. It was on an Asian radio station, hardly mainstream at all. I doubt that the British and American governments would want to talk about that stuff.

This is no big secret to people who have studied Sikh history, Sikhs under Banda kicked off with the Tat Khalsa within a few years of the Guru passing. Plus living up to Guru Ji is not something easy to do, but he left us with an awesome role model.

Whilst I am an eager student of history, it seems that your knowledge on Sikkh history is greater than mine. I'd be very appreciative if you could tell me more about this 'Tat Khalsa' as it is the first I've heard of it (and yes, I was actually referring to Babba Banda Singh ).

I think we can agree on this, I'm not keen on paranoid dogmatic practice either. But let them be.

Oh, of course. I'm not going to go out of my way to wag my finger at them any time soon. I was just stating it in the interest of our discussion on the issue that there is a 'lost essence' of Guru Nanak's philosophy.

 

[dalsingh]

Believe it or not, my mum told me!

She said she'd heard women's accounts on some radio station about how they'd been abused. It was on an Asian radio station, hardly mainstream at all. I doubt that the British and American governments would want to talk about that stuff.

I must say I am not surprised, when you look at the history of Anglo-Saxons it is full of sexual exploitation of women. Be this of African women who were being used as slaves, American Indians (I recall this documentary from a good few years ago where a contemporary recorded the event of a whiteman raid on an Native Indian encampment, they were sexually mutilating the women en masse apparently), Pocahontas, Aboriginals, all have suffered. Randy sods these goray, just look at how they go on in Ibiza...lol

I think the izzat system in the Panjab meant that they had to tone it down a bit there or they would have had a major uprising on their hands. I've even heard rumours that Maharani Jindan was gang banged by English soldiers to teach her a lesson. But couldn't verify this.

Whilst I am an eager student of history, it seems that your knowledge on Sikkh history is greater than mine. I'd be very appreciative if you could tell me more about this 'Tat Khalsa' as it is the first I've heard of it (and yes, I was actually referring to Babba Banda Singh )..

I think I posted some relevant stuff on this on the thread about the animation "The rise of the Khalsa", check that out if you haven't already. Randip Singh also seems very knowledgeable about this stuff, so maybe ask him.

I'm busy right now with a lot of stuff, but when I get the time I post some info for you. Rattan Bhangu, who was a direct descendent of people involved in those times, has written about it also, but I can't get hold of his stuff in English. We really need an English translation of this stuff!

Oh, of course. I'm not going to go out of my way to wag my finger at them any time soon. I was just stating it in the interest of our discussion on the issue that there is a 'lost essence' of Guru Nanak's philosophy.

It is not lost, its just waiting there to be fully discovered. Hopefully the breakthroughs in decoding Gurbani with the help of technology should help us remove much of the mystery around this "philosophy"

 

[BhagatSingh]

dude wear a THICK metal kara looks very nice and it can be used as a weapon
as for the kachera... its all part of the image
nihang style pug, flowing beard
huge kara
kangha
kachera
long kirpan

i want to go to school looking like this .. except maybe they wont lemme carry that kirpan around but it looks awesome

just like the japanese "show off" their "culture" (looking for a better word) samurais, ninjas etc in shows
sikhs should show off nihangs, khalsa

 

[BhagatSingh]

max i dont know if this has been mentioned but an elastic will enventually get weaker in strength but a nala will not so .... ya

 

[BhagatSingh]

Some people may consider the wearing of a kaschaera that is bound exclusively by a nala - as opposed to elastic - as not being the epitomy of modernity. Also, some may say that steel wrist-guards don't necessarily play a huge role in modern society. And neither does carrying a sword around in a society that aims to be peaceful and non-violent.

max like i have mentioned- they look good and if u wear the right kind they can be useful
the kara and the kirpan can be both used as weapons or just to "scare" the attacker if u dont use them
the kachera nala or elastic with this on u can pretty much walk around in ur "underwear" lol

i personally think that someone with these "outdated" symbols on, looks cool

 

[max314]

I must say I am not surprised, when you look at the history of Anglo-Saxons it is full of sexual exploitation of women. Be this of African women who were being used as slaves, American Indians (I recall this documentary from a good few years ago where a contemporary recorded the event of a whiteman raid on an Native Indian encampment, they were sexually mutilating the women en masse apparently), Pocahontas, Aboriginals, all have suffered. Randy sods these goray, just look at how they go on in Ibiza...lol

I don't think that skin colour has all that much to do with it. Hindus were doing plenty of barbarous things too, including committing regular paedophillic acts in their temples.

I think the izzat system in the Panjab meant that they had to tone it down a bit there or they would have had a major uprising on their hands. I've even heard rumours that Maharani Jindan was gang banged by English soldiers to teach her a lesson. But couldn't verify this.

Only the women seem to loose their "izzat" according to Indian culture. Strange how the rapists themselves mysteriously retain their 'honour'. It's a bent system.

I think I posted some relevant stuff on this on the thread about the animation "The rise of the Khalsa", check that out if you haven't already. Randip Singh also seems very knowledgeable about this stuff, so maybe ask him.

Kewl.

I'm busy right now with a lot of stuff, but when I get the time I post some info for you. Rattan Bhangu, who was a direct descendent of people involved in those times, has written about it also, but I can't get hold of his stuff in English. We really need an English translation of this stuff!

Okay, sounds cool.

It is not lost, its just waiting there to be fully discovered. Hopefully the breakthroughs in decoding Gurbani with the help of technology should help us remove much of the mystery around this "philosophy"

I think that the Truth exists eternally. Whether we call it Sikkhi, Bicky or Micky, the Truth is the Truth. That's really my only concern, and I believe that it was Guru Nanak's only concern as well.

Thanks man, nice discussion.

 

[max314]

max i dont know if this has been mentioned but an elastic will enventually get weaker in strength but a nala will not so .... ya

Then buy a new pair of pants.

max like i have mentioned- they look good and if u wear the right kind they can be useful
the kara and the kirpan can be both used as weapons or just to "scare" the attacker if u dont use them
the kachera nala or elastic with this on u can pretty much walk around in ur "underwear" lol

I don't see how we can create a modern, peace-oriented society if we're busy trying to scare people with swords. And I'm not really keen on walking around in my underwear, either. But thanks for the advice :wink:

i personally think that someone with these "outdated" symbols on, looks cool

That's fine. But I don't think it makes them any less archaic. In my view, of course.

 

[BhagatSingh]

ur right it doesnt but they still look cool

well about the buying a new pair... why buy a new one when the one with the nala will last a lifetime?

 

[max314]

dude wear a THICK metal kara looks very nice and it can be used as a weapon
as for the kachera... its all part of the image
nihang style pug, flowing beard
huge kara
kangha
kachera
long kirpan

i want to go to school looking like this .. except maybe they wont lemme carry that kirpan around but it looks awesome

Well, there's something to think about over breakfast, eh? :}{}{}:

just like the japanese "show off" their "culture" (looking for a better word) samurais, ninjas etc in shows
sikhs should show off nihangs, khalsa

I thought we already did?

And I don't know how much the Japs really show off their culture, at least outside of Japan. They are actually pretty mellow people, but their J-Pop culture - which is actually just a skewed reflection of Western culture through a Japanese view-point - is quite outspoken in Japan.

 

[BhagatSingh]

"don't see how we can create a modern, peace-oriented society if we're busy trying to scare people with swords. And I'm not really keen on walking around in my underwear, either. But thanks for the advice :wink:"

dude i meant when u NEED to scare thats when u do it. Imagine this, some guys about to attack u and he sees ur kirpan (or u pull it out or sumtin) he gets scared and backs away... isnt this peace?