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USA WSC-AR Condemns Board of Trustees of Gurdwara of Rochester

Discussion in 'Breaking News' started by Archived_Member16, Jul 1, 2010.

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  1. Archived_Member16

    Archived_Member16
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    World Sikh Council - America Region (WSC-AR)

    P.O. Box 3635, Columbus, Ohio 43210, USA

    Phone: 972.985.9591
    Fax: 925.299.9018







    WSC-AR Condemns Board of Trustees of Gurdwara of Rochester






    Contact: Manmohan Singh, Secretary General, WSC-AR, contact@worldsikhcouncil.org, Phone: 972-985-9591



    July 1, 2010


    WSC-AR Condemns Board of Trustees of Gurdwara of Rochester



    The World Sikh Council - America Region (WSC-AR) unequivocally condemns the action of the Board of Trustees of the Gurdwara of Rochester (GOR) New York for demonizing and belittling the Kirpaan (a Sikh article of faith) in a court of law for promoting their legal interests with the motive of winning an internal management dispute, and in the process getting the entry of Amritdhari (formally initiated Sikhs) into the Gurdwara banned while the legal proceedings are underway.



    WSC-AR further declares that any Sikh institution that does not allow Kakaars (the five Sikh articles of faith) on its premises can no longer be considered a Sikh Gurdwara. Hence, WSC-AR urges the Board of Trustees of GOR that if they wish their premises to be considered and recognized as a Sikh Gurdwara, they must have the ban on the Kirpaan lifted without delay and get all the sections of their arguments related to the Sikh doctrine expunged from court documents.



    “The Board of Trustees of the Gurdwara of Rochester seems to have given preference to their parochial legal interests over the religious right of a Sikh to wear a Kirpaan on its premises” said Mr. Manmohan Singh, Secretary General of WSC-AR.



    As per the court petition filed by the Board of Trustees of GOR, Justice Kenneth Fisher of the Supreme Court (County of Monroe) of State of New York ordered on June 10, 2010 that till the dispute was settled “all persons entering the GOR premises are prohibited from bringing in or carrying ceremonial swords or other weapons that could cause injury or threats to persons within GOR premises”.



    Recently WSC-AR approached the Board of Trustees of GOR to meet with them to resolve the Kirpaan matter but the Board of Trustees refused to meet with WSC-AR representatives by communicating that “we are advised by our legal counsel not to engage in any discussions about topics related to any area of the pending case.”
    As per the resolution of the Board of Trustees of GOR of June 22, 2010, “the GOR premises… constitutes private property owned by the GOR” and does not seem to be owned by the Sangat (Sikh community) of Rochester, New York.



    In the court petition filed by the Board of Trustees of the GOR before Justice Fisher, the trustees argued against allowing Kirpaans in a Gurdwara. Their sworn affidavits to the court indicate that they have no regard for the significance of the Guru’s Kirpaan. Instead of recognizing it as being a Guru’s gift to the Khalsa, they have portrayed it in the court proceedings as a dangerous weapon to be avoided in a Gurdwara. Their sworn statements and arguments to seek court orders against Kirpaan include significant distortions of the importance of Kakaars.



    The actions and sworn statements of the Board of Trustees of GOR very seriously demonize and belittle the Sikh Kakaars and have the potential of jeopardizing the efforts of Sikh Americans towards bringing an understanding of the Kakaars among the larger US community.



    The actions of the Board of Trustees of GOR in getting a ban placed on the Kirpaan and thereby the entry of formally initiated Sikhs into a Sikh place of worship under the guise of legal cover is shameful, in direct contravention of the Sikh doctrine, and a blatant attempt to undermine the Kakaars given to Sikhs by Siri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib.
    The World Sikh Council - America Region (WSC-AR) is a representative and elected body of Sikh Gurdwaras and institutions in the United States. Its members include 45 Gurdwaras (Sikh places of worship) and other Sikh institutions, across the nation. WSC-AR works to promote Sikh interests at the national and international level focusing on issues of advocacy, education, and well-being of humankind.



    Member Gurdwaras of WSC-AR:
    1. Pacific Coast Khalsa Diwan Society, Stockton, CA
    2. Gurdwara Sahib Fremont, Fremont, CA
    3. Guru Nanak Sikh Mission, Livingston, CA
    4. Sikh Gurdwara of LA, North Hollywood, CA
    5. Sikh Gurdwara Riverside, Riverside, CA
    6. Colorado Singh Sabha, Denver, CO
    7. Guru Singh Sabha of Augusta, Augusta, GA
    8. Sikh Study Circle of Atlanta, Atlanta, GA
    9. Sikh Religious Society of Chicago, Palatine, IL
    10. Sikh Society of South, New Orleans, LA
    11. New England Sikh Study Circle, Boston, MA
    12. Singh Sabha of Michigan, Canton, MI
    13. Sikh Gurdwara of Michigan, Rochester Hills, MI
    14. Sikh Society of Michigan, Madison Heights, MI
    15. Guru Nanak Foundation of Jackson, MS
    16. Sikh Gurdwara of North Carolina, Durham, NC
    17. Sikh Sabha of Upper Valley, Hanover, NH
    18. Garden State Sikh Association, Bridgewater, NJ
    19. Guru Nanak Sikh Society of Delaware Valley, Sewell, NJ
    20. Siri Guru Singh Sabha, Glenrock, NJ
    21. Sikh Sabha of New Jersey, Lawrenceville, NJ
    22. Gurdwara Baba Deep Singh, Las Vegas, NV
    23. Sikh Cultural Society Inc., Richmond Hills, NY
    24. Sikh Cultural & Edu. Society of Western NY, Buffalo, NY
    25. Sikh Religious Society of Dayton, Dayton, OH
    26. Guru Nanak Found. of Greater Cleveland, Richfield, OH
    27. Guru Gobind Singh Sikh Society, Bedford, OH
    28. Guru Nanak Religious Soc. of Central Ohio, Columbus, OH
    29. Sikh Sadh Sangat, Easton, PA
    30. Philadelphia Sikh Society, Millbourne, PA
    31. Tristate Sikh Cultural Society, Monroeville, PA
    32. Mid South Sikh Sabha, Memphis, TN
    33. Sikh Center of Gulf Coast, Houston, TX
    34. Siri Guru Singh Sabha, Richardson, TX
    35. Sikh Gurdwara of North Texas, Garland, TX
    36. Singh Sabha Gurdwara, Fairfax, VA
    37. Sikh Association of Central Virginia, VA
    38. Sikh Religious Society of Wisconsin, Brookfield, WI



    Other Sikh Institution Members of WSC-AR:
    1. Siri Guru Granth Sahib Found., Anaheim, CA
    2. Sikhs Serving America, Topeka, KS
    3. Sikh Youth Federation of North America, White Plains, NY
    4. Sikh Heritage Foundation, Long Island, NY
    5. Sikh Educational & Religious Foundation, Dublin, OH
    6. Sikh Youth Federation of USA, Toledo, OH
    7. Academy of Guru Granth Studies, Arlington, TX
     

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    #1 Archived_Member16, Jul 1, 2010
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  3. spnadmin

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    I moved this thread from controversies to the Current Affairs Section/United States so that it would be in the same forum as previous coverage of this event. Thanks.
     
  4. spnadmin

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    As a point of information. The US law on this matter is that Sikhs are permitted to wear kirpan as part of the religious garb that identifies them as baptized Sikhs.
     
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  5. CharlesKnuckles

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    To all reasonable Sikhs:

    The facts of this case have been heavily distorted by the so-called Amridharis in Rochester. In fact, one of the ring leaders of these renegade sikhs is a convicted felon currently on probation for violating US Labor laws for hiring Illegal Aliens.

    Additionally, the other ring leader is a person whose daughter converted from Sikh to Islam to marry a Muslim. Instead of taking responsibility for his own failure to teach his children the value of being a Sikh, he is blaming the Gurdwara of Rochester for not being Sikh enough.

    The current New York State ruling banned three people (and their families) only. Additionally, after the New York State judge saw video and photographic evidence of these three individuals making seriously distruptive actions during Gurdwara ceremonies, including trying to start several riots with swords drawn, the judge determined that all weapons need to be banned from to avoid incidents like what occured in Cleveland, Toronto, and in Europe.

    All Sikhs, including TRUE Amridharis, are still welcome in the Gurdwara of Rochester as they always have. However, they must not bring any long swords, and unfortunately, Kirpans thanks to the aggressive and irresponsible actions of the three banned individuals.

    The reality is that these three individuals should be banned from EVERY Gurdwara for using fowl language, including curse words, in the presence of the Guru Granth Sahib located at the Gurdwara of Rochester.

    Do not let distorted facts taint the reputation that the Gurdwara of Rochester has built over the last SEVERAL decades.
     
  6. spnadmin

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    CharlesKnuckes ji

    I myself have heard information similar to what you have just reported. There is however a problem or two with this news. It cannot be verified, or more precisely, no information has been contributed that can be authenticated. The videos you mention are not available. So we are talking hear-say.

    Another issue comes from the nature of the law itself. The management committee has acted within the law, and the judge has taken the issues under advisement according to the law. In the end, there may be nothing for the amritdhari to protest on legal grounds. Subsequently the "gurdwara" ceases to be a gurdwara and becomes a nonprofit organization, and there is no need for elections, and that is the end of the story.

    However, the sanctions lodged by WSC-AR are not about civil law, nor are they giving their support to law-breakers. Their central issue is that a gurdwara cannot exclude amirtdhari and still be a gurdwara -- as a place where Sikhs can take darshan of Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

    The American expression - You can't have your cake and eat it too. You cannot have a gurdwara and not have amritdhari. If any individuals have acted in unacceptable ways, as felons, ring-leaders, renegades, sword-carriers, and bounders, those people should be excluded, and excluded for cause. But the management committee cannot exclude an entire group and still call their facility a gurdwara. As I understand it, certain armitdhari are still members but only at the will of the management committee . That not what a gurdwara is about, and that is what WSC-RA is communicating.

    If you exclude kirpans, de facto you have excluded amritdhari because Khalsa must carry kirpans. There are two ways for the management committee to resolve this. Go back to the drawing board and work out a formal and written understanding with amirtdhari who are now excluded. Or continue on the current path, cease to be a gurdwara in the eyes of the Sikh panth, and take the heat. Actions have consequences. The WSC-AR is applying some heat, an understandable consequence of the management committee's decision.
     
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  7. Tejwant Singh1

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    Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji ke Fateh!

    The post by Charles Knuckles reminds of my post dated 30-06-10 at 13:59 where I wrote:- "My suspicion is that there was provocation from one side. "One can not clap with one hand," and it requires, "A small spark to start a fire.""

    I don't know who Charles Knuckles is and in what connection, to the Gurdwara of Rochester, he is commenting?

    Is he someone from the legal side representing the clean shaven members of the Gurdwara?

    If Charles Knuckles's contention is correct, then the response of the World Sikh Council - America Region (WSC-AR) and every individual must be in tune with the reality. And what is the realty?

    Then the WSC-AR states in their response- "Recently WSC-AR approached the Board of Trustees of GOR to meet with them to resolve the Kirpan matter but the Board of Trustees refused to meet with WSC-AR representatives by communicating that "we are advised by our legal counsel not to engage in any discussions about topics related to any area of the pending case."

    To find out the truth, some inquiry or interaction has to take place?

    Charles Knuckles may not know that the Khalsa is supreme in a Gurdwara as ordained by the Tenth Guru himself. And historically, he has been held supreme. But those who dress like the Khalsa have to be above board. We cannot allow one fish to spoil the pond. If someone has used foul language, then he or she deserves to be punished. But not all members of the Khalsa.

    As per Article 25 of the Indian Constitution under the reference of Rights of Individuals, a Sikh is legally permitted to carry and wear a Kirpan at all time.

    Though the Kirpan may not be allowed to be worn while flying in International Commercial flights, but it is permitted for Sikhs in all Domestic Airlines in India, up to SIX INCHES length.

    That is trust imposed upon the Khalsa by the Indian Nation. If a few individuals try to malign and hurt the feelings of the Khalsa by misusing the religious symbol, then they deserve the maximum punishment under the law.

    Charles Knuckles, if you are Legally representing the Board of Trustees of GOR, then you must tell them to meet the members of the WSC-AR. Otherwise, the true picture will not be known to the general readers of this Forum.

    And, Charles, even if you are not Legally representing the Board of Trustees of GOR, even then, you can intercede and become a via media to resolve this, particularly so when they don't allow any turbaned Sikhs to interact with them or to enter upon the Gurdwara premises.

    Narayanjot Kaur ji, Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji ke Fateh!
     
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    #6 Tejwant Singh1, Jul 2, 2010
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2010
  8. satnamsatnam

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    Answer to charles knucles,

    Mr Charles you seem to be most knowlegeble about the case , may be you are one of the board members or their attorney. I will like to make one thing clear:
    Message from WSC clearly says that board has misuesd and expolited the kirpan issue in order to address their personal agenda to get the judge to side with them. So regardless who is the ring leader Board of rochester gurdwara has insulted KHALSA.

    For your knowlege, Amritdhari sikhs have to wear kirpan at all times.
    In one line you say "all amritdhari sikhs are allowed" in other line you say " as long as they are not wearing a kirpan.

    These two statements are cotradictory.

    Please get your facts straight. Issue here is Sikhism and not one or two people, you may have won in court of law but board have insulted the whole sikh nation in order to acheve this goal.

    May be you need to define Amritdhari or may be define Gurdwara and SIKH

    Can WSC poat copy of the court order, so that we can get some more facts.
    I am sure WSC must have reviewed these facts before posting this.
     
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  9. blingsingh

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    I'm uploading a couple of files of the affidavits that I found on facebook, The person writing the affadivit (Santokh Badesha) claims that Sikhs don't need kirpans and also labels kirpan is as useless as the kanga. He also wrote that those sikhs who are being banned or those who are being affected by kirpan ban have guru granth sahibs in their home and that there is no need for them to even come to gurdwara.

    Charlesknuckles brought up that there was a couple of bad apples in the Gurdwara but their history and their family life has nothing to do with the problem in rochester gurdwara right now, we should be focusing on the problems that the gurdwara committee has created not the history of sikhs who are helping to change the current system. From being an outsider i believe that they have the right intention on actually having the courage to battle these masands and promoting sikhi in the gurdwara but instead these committee masands put the gurdwara in their own name and labeled it as private property and banned these sikhs so they can keep their clubhouse running the way they want to. [​IMG][​IMG]
     

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    #8 blingsingh, Jul 2, 2010
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  10. sacha

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    The person who is giving the affidavit either does not understand any thing about sikhism or trying to be totaly igronet of the faith. Five kakars are the gift of our guru and questioning these kakars is biltling our Gurus. Furhtermore those who gave the affidavit saying some of these defendents have Guru Granth Sahib at their homes so don't need to come to Gurdwara is just like saying many christians have bibble at their house why do they need churches at every corner of the town. The person either don't understand the concept of Sangat or gives no importance to the sangat. :redturban:
     
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  11. CharlesKnuckles

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    Narayanjot Kaur Ji,

    For clarification - I am not a member of the GOR Board, I do not represent the GOR Board, nor am I their lawyer.

    I was, however, a long time member of the GOR before moving out of state and have in depth knowledge of what has been happening in GOR. Additionally, I personally know most of the people involved on both sides of this issue here in Rochester.

    First, the Central Committee of the GOR is NOT responding or commenting on the New York State Supreme Court ruling until this matter is completely closed in the court of law. Additionally, they are not releasing any videos or pictures presented as evidence to the New York Supreme Court. The primary reason is that this matter is not to be settled in the court of public opinion, but by the Supreme Court of New York State. If this evidence is needed, then you, or the media, can petition the State of New York under the Freedom of Information Act. The GOR has NO plans on creating any propoganda videos, names deleted.

    Secondly, the Central Committee DID NOT ask for a ban of Kirpans in the legal procedings. They requested that swords over 6 inches long not be allowed in the Gurdwara. The three banished Sikhs (and their families) were bringing two to three foot long swords into the Gurdwara and brandishing them in a cowardly attempt to intimidate the members of the Sangat that did not agree with their point of view. When the New York State judge saw video and photographic evidence showing the three banished Sikhs instigating violence with weapons, the Judge CHOSE to ban all weapons, including Kirpans, as a matter of public safety.

    As I stated: Amritdhari Sikhs are welcome, as they always have been. names deleted

    This is not a situation that the Gurdwara of Rochester wanted or asked for. However, this action was needed to remove several people that may have looked like Sikhs...but certainly did not act in an honorable way as Sikhs should.
     
    #10 CharlesKnuckles, Jul 3, 2010
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  12. CharlesKnuckles

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    Tejwant Singh1 Ji,

    As I mentioned in a prior post, I am not a member of the GOR Board, I do not represent the GOR Board, nor am I their lawyer.

    I was, however, a long time member of the GOR before moving out of state and have in depth knowledge of what has been happening in GOR. Additionally, I personally know most of the people involved on both sides of this issue in Rochester.

    First: The response of the WSC-AR is inappropriate based on the fact that they HAVE NOT had any communication with the Gurdwara of Rochester. Condeming the ruling of the New York State Supreme Court is TOTALLY irresponsible of the WSC-AR if they don't have all of the facts from both sides of this issue. If they have not talked personally with the Gurdwara of Rochester, then they should WAIT before condeming anyone.

    Second: I am more than aware of the importance of Khalsa in the Gurdwara. However, just because someone LOOKS like they are Khalsa does not mean that they act honorably like the Guru would demand of Sikhs. Names have been deleted. True Amritdhari Sikhs should be enraged by what these three phony-popcorn Sikhs have done.

    Third: Quoting the Indian Constitution is totally meaningless. We are in the United States and follow the laws at the Local, State, and Federal levels.

    Fourth: I have my facts completely straight on this entire case. Perhaps you need to do the same. I have written a post to Narayanjot Kaur Ji explaining what happened with the Kirpan issue. You will find the the root of this lies completely

    comments naming individuals have been deleted.
     
    #11 CharlesKnuckles, Jul 3, 2010
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  13. CharlesKnuckles

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    satnamsatnam Ji

    I have posted to several other people regarding my relationship (or lack there of) with the Gurdwara of Rochester.

    Additionally, I have provided some clarification, because obviously people do not know how to read well enough to understand what stupidity Names deleted.

    deleted: debate issues not personalities
     
    #12 CharlesKnuckles, Jul 3, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 3, 2010
  14. spnadmin

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    Charles Knuckles ji

    You have added some detail that was not evident in your earliest posts - and maybe I am one of those people who cannot read -- but some of the new information seems to contradict or heavily modify what you said earlier.

    Unfortunately I am going to have to edit your postings because you have mentioned people by name. If they have self identified in videos or newspaper articles, they have done this themselves. SPN cannot however open the door to the chance that the people you named today will be connected to allegations you made yesterday.

    I would repeat from my remarks yesterday: Without any verification, your telling of the story is hear-say, second hand information, since you say are not a member of the GOR any longer.

    And we don't know who you are, therefore, we cannot ascertain whether you have the personal knowledge that you claim to have.
     
    #13 spnadmin, Jul 3, 2010
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  15. spnadmin

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    satnamsatnam ji

    I think you made a good point above. This is the best I can find on the web. But it can be tracked down. Using The State of New York Supreme Court (County of Monroe) Order in response to Board of Trustee’s of Gurdwara of Rochester (GOR)

    The source for this is Amritdharis Banned from Gurdwara in Rochester | The Langar Hall
     

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  16. Ajay Singh

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    “The current New York State ruling banned three people (and their families) only. Additionally, after the New York State judge saw video and photographic evidence of these three individuals making seriously distruptive actions during Gurdwara ceremonies, including trying to start several riots with swords drawn, the judge determined that all weapons need to be banned from to avoid incidents like what occured in Cleveland, Toronto, and in Europe.”
    This statement is completely false and misleading. First of all in the video provided to the court shows only ONE individual speaking, not three, and voicing his concerns on behalf of the Sangat. This took place after the Service. Second, no swords were ever drawn to disrupt any service or to “create riots”. The questions asked to the General Secretary in that video are as follows: 1) Why do you lie to the Sangat all the time in the presence of Guru Granth Sahib Jee. 2) One of the trustee’s son had physically threatened a young boy, how come no action was taken against him? 3) One of the trustees has openly insulted the Sikh’s Turban and the Amrit (khande ki pahul) blessed by Guru Jee, what actions are taken against him? 4) The votes in the elections came from all over the world such as India, Canada, England and other states of US. How come people who live in other states and other countries have the right to vote for this local Gurdwara? 5) Violations of the constitution need to stop.
    The trustees gave this video to the court with misleading translations and stated that this happened during the service causing disturbance, when in fact it was after the service.
    The reality is that these three individuals should be banned from EVERY Gurdwara for using fowl language, including curse words, in the presence of the Guru Granth Sahib located at the Gurdwara of Rochester.
    No one has used fowl language, including curse words anywhere. One thing to note about Mr. Charles Knuckles is that in one statement he states that he has moved out of state and does not live in Rochester, on the other side he is giving statements as if he attends the Gurdwara every week.
    Secondly, the Central Committee DID NOT ask for a ban of Kirpans in the legal procedings. They requested that swords over 6 inches long not be allowed in the Gurdwara.
    The trustees have given their affidavits with supporting documents and asked the court to put a ban on Kirpan. The recent affidavit submitted to the court by the trustees does not contain a single line about allowing a 6 inch Kirpan. Request to Mr. Charles Knuckles, to upload the most recent Affidavit with all the supporting documents which were submitted to Ban Kirpan.
    The three banished Sikhs (and their families) were bringing two to three foot long swords into the Gurdwara and brandishing them in a cowardly attempt to intimidate the members of the Sangat that did not agree with their point of view. When the New York State judge saw video and photographic evidence showing the three banished Sikhs instigating violence with weapons, the Judge CHOSE to ban all weapons, including Kirpans, as a matter of public safety.
    Mr. Charlie it is enough that the trustees have lied in open to the court, and now they have hired you to lie to public as well. I would like clarify that the trustees took my one year old picture from my facebook profile which was taken during a gatka play at my house and mislead the court by saying that I am asking the Sangat members to pick up arms against the trustees in the Gurdwara. Another picture of one of the plaintiffs was taken during the Turban Day Ceremony in the langar hall, in which everyone stood on stage with a kirpan including one of the trustees. This picture was also used to mislead the court and news media.
    As I stated: Amritdhari Sikhs are welcome, as they always have been.
    Mr. Charles Knuckles, your own statement does not make sense. As you say that the Kirpan has been banned. All Amritdhari Sikhs wear a Kirpan, so how are they welcomed?
    Note: One June 20th two Amritdhari Sikh’s were almost arrested because they went in the Gurdwara with their Siri Sahib. The Sangat members intervened and the arrest was stopped. Police report filed.
    I have a few question for you Mr. Charles Knuckles since you say you know everything about both sides?
    #1. What do you say about the ring leader trustee who openly claims himself as an Amritdhari Sikh? He has no kes, no dastaar, no kakaars and is usually found drunk.
    #2. What do you have to say about your ring leader trustee who has stated in writing that Sikhs with turbans have very little brain? “Very little under the turban stand”
    #3. What do you have to say about the trustees who now say that there is no more constitution, the Gurdwara will be run under their dictatorship?
    #4. What about one of the trustees saying that Sikhs do not need the outer appearance?
    #5. What do you have to say about the time when Akahnd Paath was going on in memory of someone’s death and AT THE SAME TIME one of the trustee was performing Bhangra on unethical Punjabi songs in the Gurdwara.
    #6. What do you have to say about your ring leader trustee who used to come once a year to the Gurdwara to announce the elections results and now he is giving his statements that elections never took place?
    #7. What do you have to say about the General Secretary holding 3 or more positions simultaneously?
    #8. What do you have to say about people from other states and other Countries voting through mail in the Gurdwara election, and most of the local Sangat is not given the right to vote?
    #9. What do you have to say about the trustees holding a meeting and saying not to talk about Kes (uncut hair) in the Gurdwara, because it is against their policy?
    #10. What about your ring leader trustee telling a young kid that he can go to clubs, cut his hair, and get drunk, we do not care?
    #11. What would you like to say about the General Secretary saying that Gurbani Vichar will not be allowed in this Gurdwara?
    #12. What would you like to say about one of the trustees saying that Guru Granth Sahib Jee is just a book. No need to treat it like a living Guru?
    #13. The Gurdwara was built with the contributions from the Sangat and now the trustees are saying that it was only built by them. What do you have to say about the trustees, going through the back door and restating this Sikh Gurdwara as a Free Church, killing democracy and thus becoming a self perpetuating board? Turning Sangat’s property into their private property.
    #14. What would you like to say about the $200,000 plus collected from the Sangat in the last 3 years and using this money against the Sangat?
    #15. What would you like to say when your ring leader refused 60 plus members of the Sangat (protesting against their wrong doings) from eating Langar and told them to go outside and get your own langar?
    #16. What would you like to say about 3 Hindus giving their statement letters in support with the trustees affidavit? Deleted reference to a named individual


    Boley So Nihaal Jaikaras is disturbance?

    #18. Many more questions, please respond to these at least…
    Ajay Singh


    Ajay ji You are using a font that is so small that I have missed your personal email. It is now deleted. Use the SPN private messaging system I beg you in the future. Publishing personal information is not a safe Internet practice. The entire internet does not need to know your email address. Thank you, Narayanjot kaur
     
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    #15 Ajay Singh, Jul 3, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 7, 2010
  17. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Ajay Singh ji

    It must have taken you time and energy to to put this together - a line by line reply to the questionable arguments put before us.

    I also hope we can find the full ruling. I wrote to the langarhall and asked if anyone could supply a lead to the complete document. It seems to me WSC-AR had, was required, demanded of itself to write a condemnation after so many misleading ideas found their way unchallenged into a court of law.

    Your questions and objections -- well, I share them.
     
  18. truesikh

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    Well let their be no doubt charlesknucles is one of the key person of Gurdwara of Rochester Board. As usual Board often lie he is doing same. I am sure WSC must have called couple times and left messages with board members, these mahant board members don't reply, then they lie no body contacted us.
    I am asking charlesknucles and entire Sikh Community Simple question :
    Can Gurdwara and it's Property belongs to few members of Board Members when from last 30 years entire Rochester Sikh Community and who ever came to Gurdwara believes in Sikh faith contributed and did Sewa by Taan, Maan, & Dhan.
    As per Board Law Suit and affidavit "Gurdwara and Its Property is Board members Private property . Mr charlesknucles your board members are changing the philosophy of entire Sikh Religion.

    Mr charlesknucles in every Gurdwara Sangat is Supreme, This is the key principal of Sikhism. Does your board members ever followed this principal of sikhism and discussed the board's issue with sangat . Have your board tried to resolve board problems, by involving other Gurdwara Sikh sangat.
    Again answer is NO , Because these Mahant are NOT SIKH any MORE. They don't care to spoil image of SIKH faith. They are Clean Shaven pakhandies.

    Last 30years in the history of Gurdwara, not a single or minor issue happen in which Kirpan or any 5K were involved. Then why your board brought this Kirpan issue in affidavit by giving false evidence to ban Kirpan.
    If board has problem with 3 members then why they filed law suit on other members.
    Again these mathant Board members hate Sikh Bana, as from last 30 years they have been doing pakhand showing they are Sikh and now board wants to change the philosophy of Sikh faith as one of them is scientist, and he called him self Clean Shaven Amritdhari Sikh.

    Well bottom line is "As bad fish spoil whole pond" same as these few board members are disease in Sikh faith. They don't care to spoil image of Sikh faith, I request you to help Rochester Sikh Sangat to cure from these diseased Board Members. They Need your help.

    Guru fathe !
     
    #17 truesikh, Jul 3, 2010
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2010
  19. sacha

    sacha
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    CharlesNuckel ! You are not only a liar but also know how to distort the truth. There is no truth in all the affidavits submitted to the court. The pictures submitted to the court are from the turban day celebration, where every body who participated in the event including some of the plantifs were holding Kirpan and full recording of the event are available. Your actions are disgusting and beyond pardonable. How dare you call yourself a sikh.
     
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  20. Ajay Singh

    Ajay Singh
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    Letter from the plaintiffs attorney attached with the court's decision.
     

    Attached Files:

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  21. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Ajay Singh ji

    Thanks for finding the order and sharing it with us. There are some interesting things to note about this.

    The decision is an injunction (a form of cease and desist order) which would then normally be appealed before the court.

    WSC-AR has no choice but to go on the record to condemn the actions of GOR management committee. It is an important tactic to inform the court that it may have been mislead.

    The injunction was served to the "amritdhari" who have been banned, or to be precise, it was served to their lawyer Masino Esq by way of the offices of the lawyer of GOR Rosenbaum Esq.

    This is consistent with a civil proceeding, and the fact that the ruling is made under the jurisdiction of business law not criminal law. If that were the case the injunction would have been served by a sheriff or constable.

    GOR is exercising its right to exclude "customers" or "clients" from its non profit. organization.

    Sikhs have no choice but to point out that GOR is not a gurdwara and advise sangats nationwide that such is the case. SPN mentor, namjap ji, earlier commented that they are fostering a sect of sorts. I agree.

    The courts will have more work to do.
     
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