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General Why do you think the world is burning?

Discussion in 'Hard Talk' started by Seeker2013, Sep 17, 2013.

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  1. Seeker2013

    Seeker2013 India
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    everywhere in the news its always bad news !
    you get up and watch morning news , its something bad , esp so if you live in a third world country like india .
    I am so tired of it sometimes . Political corruption , diseases , unemployment , this , that !
    And then when I listen to how god cares for us so much , I wonder why he never intervenes apparently ?
    Do you think world would be such a mess if god cared ?
     
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  3. Harry Haller

    Harry Haller United Kingdom
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    re: Why do you think the world is burning ?

    Well, 'he' did give us the information, the SGGS, to guide us, other than changing the laws of physics and time, what else can 'he' do?

    maybe you need a personal Jesus?
     
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  4. Inderjeet Kaur

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    re: Why do you think the world is burning ?

    1. It's primarily a matter of focus. You choose to focus on bad stuff. That is your choice and your right. I choose to remain in chardi kala. I have been a social activist for half a century. I know the crap out there; I just don't let it get inside me.

    2. It's called free will. Our Creator has given us the freedom to screw up. How would it make sense for God to then bail us out without our experiencing the consequences of our own actions, on both an individual and a collective level? Would it be better to be automatons?

    3. If you don't like the world the way it is, then work to change it. Complaining may give temporary relief, but only action will change things.
     
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  5. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Re: Why do you think the world is burning ?

    Perhaps prevailing ideas of "God" have contributed to the sense of despair all these centuries, East and West. Yet, a different idea of "God" has been there at least from the time of Guru Nanak but is hard for most of us to comprehend.

    If you are an agnostic Seeker2013 ji, why would you "seek" answers here?
     
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  6. Seeker2013

    Seeker2013 India
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    Re: Why do you think the world is burning ?

    Do you have a problem with that ?
    *sigh* people don't want me to be here ! :\

    yes , well I sometimes transgress my ownself and go to places at which it makes no sense for me to go , considering the beliefs I hold !
    for eg : like how I went to go to gurudwara a few days back at amrit vela to see what the hukamnama is !
     
  7. aristotle

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    Re: Why do you think the world is burning ?

    It seems to me you have made an assumption that you are the 'questioner' and all others are 'answerers' here on this forum. You know that debating is a two way street, you get answers and at the same time you have to answer some. Remember we all are Seekers here.

    My opinion is that 'What does an Agnostic seek on a Sikh forum?' is a completely justified question. Have you taken an offence to that? I cannot imagine why.

    Moreover, if you had visited other religious forums, which you may have, you would gave known SPN is one of the most tolerant forums out there.
     
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  8. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Re: Why do you think the world is burning ?

    Thanks aristotle ji

    I wonder how many others out there have the feeling that Seeker2013 is not seeking answers but giving a test.

    It's not that you are not welcome here Seeker ji. Rather many of us have tired of the merry-go-round of Q and A on the questions. Try out some other threads for starters where the questions have been asked and answered numerous times over.
     
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  9. Tejwant Singh

    Tejwant Singh United States
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    Re: Why do you think the world is burning ?

    Seeker2013 ji,

    Guru Fateh.

    You know we have gone through this exercise before with the irrelevancy of your questions about god when you do not claim to have any as an agnostic.

    It seems, and please correct me if I am wrong that you have been kicked out of your deity god's door more than once and now you are trying to look through the keyhole of his door to find out what is happening in there because it seems you desperately want to get back to the place you were kicked out from.

    But, I am ready to do the same exercise with you in hope for your becoming more an honest person no matter what faith or no faith you belong to.

    You write:

    You are being dishonest here or your sources that you get your news from are not the honest kind.

    Is the Navy yard located in India where the shootings took place yesterday?

    FYI, bad things happen all the times and everywhere. It is on us how we deal with them.

    Are you problem free as an agnostic? Please be truthful.

    Are you yourself involved in some political corruption that you would like to share? Please do. We are good listeners here at SPN.

    Do you have a disease that you would like to tell us about and is that the reason you are unemployed?

    Please do share all what you are going through. Perhaps, by listening to your ails the political and the non-political ones, you may feel better.

    I thought you had no god. Am I wrong in that? If you have no god then stop bothering with someone else's.

    Your only duty as a human being is to get better and share that goodness that you have cultivated with the others. Nothing more. It needs no rituals, no fasting, no pilgrimages, no prayers for any bribes,no pleading of any sort. Nothing. Nada. Zip.

    Do you find the above difficult in order to conduct your life as a an active participating good human being in the society? if you do, please tell us why.

    Once again, why are you bothered by some god that does not exist for you or have you been fooling yourself about it for a long time?

    We are all ears. Please start the conversation.

    Regards

    Tejwant Singh
     
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  10. Seeker2013

    Seeker2013 India
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    Re: Why do you think the world is burning ?

    An atheist doesn't have any god ! You are confusing atheist with agnostic . Both are not mutually exclusive though !
    Agnostic basically mean someone who believes god cannot be proved or disproved !
    or alternatively someone who is not sure about existence of god !


    I used to be an amritdhari when I was a KID ! I took amrit at 13 and had already left while I was 15(sorry if anyone is offended by this sacrilege )
    Then as I was growing up , I realized world is not the simple colorful world I thought it was .
    I could not avoid realities of life which struck me hard

    And What the hell is getting kicked out of diety's door ?? are you saying god has deserted me . Why would god do that (if he/she/it/? exists) ?? its like a parent taking a kid in dark room and leaving him there !
    if I were to **** off god by some way and in response , the god deserts me , then isn't this god itself exercising 'revenge' of sort . Isn't he simply himself stuck in human tendencies ? besides god is forgiveness , isn't ?



    third world countris have their own problems



    THANKS for the consideration !


    I don't have a god . People here don't get my nuance I think ! When I say 'god' , I mean the 'concept of god' we were raised with as sikhs .. So I am not blaming god , but just asking my fellowmen how do they reconcile their faith which tells them 'god is all good thing' but when you look at world and sufferings , it doesn't seem like the manager of this world is what u have been told !


    I just have anger issues TBH !

    once again my compliments for soft-spokenness . Its very rare these days on internet forums , esp religious ones *sorry , my experience
     
  11. aristotle

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    Re: Why do you think the world is burning ?

    Actually as Sikhs it is our duty to show tolerance. Don't bother thanking.

    A person who calls others by offending names expects tolerance. Strange enough. What happened to the Golden rule?

    In the last discussion too you were changing gears at your tone. Speak with dignity Sir, PLEASE.

    SPN is actually good, otherwise there wouldn't be so many meaningful discussions.
     
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  12. Seeker2013

    Seeker2013 India
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    Re: Why do you think the world is burning ?

    Polite people have said I can ask questions
    So I will ask my first theological question on sikhism (And NO this is not to ridicule the faith , yeah some people think thats what I am to do here , but I think sikhs will have to answer these questions today or tomorrow)

    No one has to answer any of your questions. Who do you think you are? A grand inquisitor?


    #1 karma v/s hukam
    japji sahib says 'hukmne andar sab ko bahar hukam na koe" . i.e EVERYTHING happens in god's will
    but we also read in the same baani "karmi aapo aapni kay naede kay door" i.e By their OWN DEEDS (karams) , some are near , some are away from god

    but think of it , how can any action be YOURS if its inspired by GOD ?
    do you feel there is some conflict here of karam and hukam ?

    How can a person do his own karam if every of his karam is actually god's will ?
    And
    if we are mere puppets in god's hand ( as hukam implies) , then why are we rewarded as based on our karams ??
     
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  13. findingmyway

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    Re: Why do you think the world is burning ?

    Seeker2013 ji,
    Here are some points to ponder......
    What is your understanding of God? This is an essential starting point to understand where you are coming from.

    How do you view progress in the world, e.g. societies around the world are more equal than they have ever been and always moving forward so by comparison this is a fairer world than before, more and more health problems are now treatable so less people are dying or suffering from debilitating conditions compared to before, awareness is increasing about global issues and people are coming together to protect their environment etc etc.

    What is your understanding of hukam? How can you reconcile being a puppet of a angry god figure sitting in the clouds with Sikh philosophy?

    Have you made any effort to study Sikh philosophy? I don't mean listening to what other people tell you but making effort to understand Gurbani for yourself?

    I notice you didn't look at any of the links I spent time posting on your other thread but I urge you to spend sometime exploring the forum and reading Gurbani then asking questions.

    Before you become defensive or ask more questions, please reply to the above and do some research.
     
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  14. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Re: Why do you think the world is burning ?

    Now I am beginning the process of deleting your short-tempered comments Seeker2013 ji. Let's wipe the slate clean and start fresh. What have you read on other threads here at SPN on the subject of 'god's' relationship with creation that you would like clarified. I hope that gives you some focus.

    I recommend that you either reply to findingmyway's very focused inquiry, or read threads on hukam first and ask more focused questions yourself.

    Otherwise we are being asked to take a dare, and that is childish.

    Thank you
     
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    #13 spnadmin, Sep 17, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2013
  15. Inderjeet Kaur

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    Re: Why do you think the world is burning ?

    Seeker2013 ji,

    I am taking you very seriously indeed. I posted three points that I believe could be of use to you, if you really are looking for such. I am not an enlightened being or a sort of Sikh bodhisattwa; I am just a simple Sikh woman who has lived a few more years and been through a lot and survived more than one crisis of faith.


    I have learned never to try to convince anyone to believe as I do. I present what I have; it is up to you to take it or leave it. I see some of our most dedicated members here offering their fruits of many years and getting a lot of yahbutts in return.

    If you are indeed experiencing that "dark night of the soul" when everything is going wrong and life seems little more than pain and despair...And you can fathom no evidence of even the existence of Deity, there is no darker place. I know. I have been there. There is a way out and I think several of us are pointing ways we have discovered. Our frustration comes from you looking at the pointing finger rather than looking where it is pointing. Please think about this and do not answer immediately.

    We can share our experience and knowledge, but ultimately, it is a journey you must take alone. I will always be here to encourage you, but you will make it - or not - on your own. I look forward to the day when you will step into the sunlight, give us a big grin and say, " Guess what, guys, I made it."

    The way out is through. Much love and Godspeed, dear brother.
     
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    #14 Inderjeet Kaur, Sep 17, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2013
  16. spnadmin

    spnadmin United States
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    Re: Why do you think the world is burning ?

    Certainly polite people may ask and answer questions. However, there seems to be a need for a perception tune-up. Questions should be polite not demanding. That is all for now. If I have to intervene again on the importance of using a civil tongue, then the thread will be deleted.
     
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  17. Navdeep88

    Navdeep88 Canada
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    Re: Why do you think the world is burning ?

    I know im a faceless person, but I will do my best to assist you in your dilemma. Bearing in mind that words do not = action and therefore, there is no reward for Saying right, than DOING right.

    Im young. I've witnessed what u have. I've seen Unfairness. I've been upset.

    But words didn't get me anywhere. And they won't, that's the really beautiful thing. If you've SAID something wrong, you can apologize. If you've Done something wrong, bigger mess. But you can still apologize.

    Anyways, you're primary complaint is what you're witnessing. And you're trying to define God by it. But what about you? Why are you sitting there watching TV & NOT USING THIS BEAUTIFUL ENERGY YOU HAVE AT THIS AGE, to contribute etc., to lessen the mess?

    There is no Faith that I know of (or worthy of being called) that Denies Personal Responsibility? God is supposed to be Isolated from you? We are INTELLIGENT Beings, how Generous of God to give us Cool brains, and this world to make a difference in? I personally, think He's watching us make mistakes, and then sometimes Right them. And with his GIFTS of Intelligence, proper conduct, good heartedness that come Only from him, we can Navigate in the world well. Create LESS of a Mess b/c there's certainly enough people exploiting each other.

    And that is the whole point (to me) to focus on action, & to not believe that God's just going to fix everything for you. B/c He/she won't. If you're Not appreciating the gifts you're getting, if you're not Moving. God's standing by, Saying Im almighty, I can do anything, but I know you're a beautiful creature I created & I put a lot of love into you via family etc. & You know what's right. I want u to have the guts to act on it. Lol.

    That is my retarded story. But point: ACTION>thought. PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY>complaining.

    I know moving's really scary. But once u get going a litle bit, you realize Other people are doing things too. And that's really cool.

    Be STRONG!!!
     
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  18. Navdeep88

    Navdeep88 Canada
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    Re: Why do you think the world is burning ?

    I know i have a lot to learn. But Im also a grown woman. If I can't act, than SHAME ON ME For not acting right!! I have a family, if I can't do right by them, then I Suck.

    **Btw, I've had an immense amount of guilt about what people are doing to the environment, but then I see hurricanes and natural disasters and I know that God is a lot more powerful. I don't look to them as positive experiences at all, but Humbling they are. The "messes" you're witnessing, as cruel as they are, are somewhat in this bizarre amalgamation of person & environment perhaps? Sometimes, things have a way of going way wrong, If you have the little power to help them go right, makes someone else' life a little easier. Won't you?

    You won't receive a pat on the back for it. You won't receive immediate karma. You won't need to tell people about it.

    Heck no, you'll FEEL it. You'll feel Amazing, knowing that to the best of the ability you can in the litle circumstance u're in you're doing right. And you'll feel great.
     
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  19. Seeker2013

    Seeker2013 India
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    Re: Why do you think the world is burning ?

    thanks Navdeep88 Ji !

    I get what you're saying ! Its true , I whine too much sometimes (infact a lot lately !)
    We don't really appreciate our gifts ! We started with something (via good health and wealth inheritance from parents) that most people strive to accumulate but don't get till that point till the end of life !

    Also I think I should stop comprehending god , its pointless (regardless if god is real or just a concept we humans evolved to )
     
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  20. Ishna

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    Re: Why do you think the world is burning ?

    Thank you Inderjeet ji - this is an incredibly good point.

    Aren't we all puppets under the Puppeteer? Do we have free will? I thought there was only one Doer? Who gives the charity, and who steals from the coffer?

    If bad deeds and events don't occur in the same space as the Creator, where do they exist?

    If pleasure and suffering are both Its Gifts, but that suffering is inflicted at the hands of another person, then ... does not compute.

    How can the nasty person's actions be their own actions but the virtuous actions are those of the Creator? If only the Creator exists then who is doing nasty things?
     
  21. findingmyway

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    Re: Why do you think the world is burning ?

    Have you tried getting help for this? Anger eats you up from the inside. It is a highly destructive force. Of the 5 ills, it is the one I have had to work hardest with!
     
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